11 major teams considering plans to break away from the UCI

[Cobblestoned]

BANG

My name is JJ "Lone Wolf" McQuade. I am the leader of the new professional cycling racing series. Similarities in name are just coincidence.

This is me, my directeurs car, my rules and my chaperon.

 

[blutto]

Very mature

...no worries but thanks for the concern...I'm familiar with the technique that is being used and how to survive its application...its called sound shooting and if you lay low and keep quiet you'll be OK...

...and for those not familiar with the term, sound shooting is a time honoured hunting technique used by American hunters...it involves shooting at any sound they hear when they are in the bush...and lest you think I'm exaggerating, the Ontario government, some time ago instituted a staggered hunting season( we realized long ago that wearing safety vests is only useful if the other hunters give a s**t about anybody else...we are just Mexicans in sweaters as the joke goes ) ...so the first part of the season is for the locals, then there is a lull period during which everybody can get out of the bush and then they let the Americans go in and play their war games....and when I say war games I mean war games because these guys carry some serious ordinance....its either peashooters with banana clips ( high velocity small bore ) or shoulder mounted cannons more appropriate for stopping polar bears...by contrast the locals used to use army surplus Lee-Enfields ( real cheap, good slug weight, shoot straight and have great range )...the other advantage the L/E has is that if you do have a bad shot and hit the carcass you don't damage much meat...the American style is to blow the moose to pieces which leaves little or no usable meat but to be fair they are only in it for the sport anyway...oh, and a trophy to commemorate the kill...so they shoot up a storm and then they generally chop the head off with a chainsaw and their day is done...sorry, way long, but I had to do some back-filling...

...and as an Aussie you'll get this...these guys are like the stereotypical bad Brit lout but minus the vestige of good manners...kinda of a lose lose scenario...( you guys are so lucky to be an island...we here ,dream of such a luxury...because these guys just roll across the border virtually unimpeded...)

Cheers

blutto

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Yes. Imagine a generic sportcaster trying to explain races to a new, casual fan.

"Okay, here we are at the Tour Down Under. It is mostly flat, so only sprinters have a chance of winning.

"Now we are at Paris-Roubaix. It is also flat, but it is long and has cobbled sections. It requires a big, powerful rider. None of the riders who could win at the Tour Down Under have a chance here.

"Now we are at the Volta a Catalunya. It has lots of climbs. None of the riders who could win the other two races can win this."

What other sport has this sort of mix of competitions where casual fans cannot watch an occasional event and see the sports' stars compete for the win?

But it's precisely that kind of complexity that drew me in when I was a just casual fan.

 

[BroDeal]

...no worries but thanks for the concern...I'm familiar with the technique that is being used and how to survive its application...its called sound shooting and if you lay low and keep quiet you'll be OK...

...and for those not familiar with the term, sound shooting is a time honoured hunting technique used by American hunters...it involves shooting at any sound they hear when they are in the bush...and lest you think I'm exaggerating, the Ontario government, some time ago instituted a staggered hunting season( we realized long ago that wearing safety vests is only useful if the other hunters give a s**t about anybody else...we are just Mexicans in sweaters as the joke goes ) ...so the first part of the season is for the locals, then there is a lull period during which everybody can get out of the bush and then they let the Americans go in and play their war games....and when I say war games I mean war games because these guys carry some serious ordinance....its either peashooters with banana clips ( high velocity small bore ) or shoulder mounted cannons more appropriate for stopping polar bears...by contrast the locals used to use army surplus Lee-Enfields ( real cheap, good slug weight, shoot straight and have great range )...the other advantage the L/E has is that if you do have a bad shot and hit the carcass you don't damage much meat...the American style is to blow the moose to pieces which leaves little or no usable meat but to be fair they are only in it for the sport anyway...oh, and a trophy to commemorate the kill...so they shoot up a storm and then they generally chop the head off with a chainsaw and their day is done...sorry, way long, but I had to do some back-filling...

...and as an Aussie you'll get this...these guys are like the stereotypical bad Brit lout but minus the vestige of good manners...kinda of a lose lose scenario...( you guys are so lucky to be an island...we here ,dream of such a luxury...because these guys just roll across the border virtually unimpeded...)

Canadians, underarmed and easy to rile. Most have a sense of humor but the occasional sober one does not.

Sounds like someone needs a few Elsinores.

 

[Astana1]

Nice. You just wasted ten minutes of your life writing that. You and the Kiwis ought to have a contest to see whose buttons are easier to push. Bla bla bla

51st State

...no worries but thanks for the concern...I'm familiar with the technique that is being used and how to survive its application...its called sound shooting and if you lay low and keep quiet you'll be OK...

...and for those not familiar with the term, sound shooting is a time honoured hunting technique used by American hunters...it involves shooting at any sound they hear when they are in the bush...and lest you think I'm exaggerating, the Ontario government, some time ago instituted a staggered hunting season( we realized long ago that wearing safety vests is only useful if the other hunters give a s**t about anybody else...we are just Mexicans in sweaters as the joke goes ) ...so the first part of the season is for the locals, then there is a lull period during which everybody can get out of the bush and then they let the Americans go in and play their war games....and when I say war games I mean war games because these guys carry some serious ordinance....its either peashooters with banana clips ( high velocity small bore ) or shoulder mounted cannons more appropriate for stopping polar bears...by contrast the locals used to use army surplus Lee-Enfields ( real cheap, good slug weight, shoot straight and have great range )...the other advantage the L/E has is that if you do have a bad shot and hit the carcass you don't damage much meat...the American style is to blow the moose to pieces which leaves little or no usable meat but to be fair they are only in it for the sport anyway...oh, and a trophy to commemorate the kill...so they shoot up a storm and then they generally chop the head off with a chainsaw and their day is done...sorry, way long, but I had to do some back-filling...

...and as an Aussie you'll get this...these guys are like the stereotypical bad Brit lout but minus the vestige of good manners...kinda of a lose lose scenario...( you guys are so lucky to be an island...we here ,dream of such a luxury...because these guys just roll across the border virtually unimpeded...)

Cheers

blutto

 

[hfer07]

I'd be really pleased if this break ever happens in order to dethrone Pat & Co from power. the fact that the hog-whose "mutual collaboration" with UCI is famous-is coming out with serious complains and calling for changes, really sparks the situation to a new level. As some folks here mentioned- I really start to distrust JV on his "intentions" to change cycling--he's looking to get a chunk of the tart for himself and his team.




I was just wondering if those behind the "plot" are going to get some retaliation from the UCI........

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Track and field is a brilliant model to follow. People will only tune in to watch it at the Olympics. A sport that is watched once every four years will really bring in the bucks.

The equivalent in track and field would be if it were actually popular and if instead of holding competitions with all events, they had a 100M sprint one weekend, a 10K the next, a marathon the next, 400M relay the next, etc.

I wasn't suggesting it as a model to follow: I was replying to someone who said that casual viewers would be confused by specialisations, and why the same people were not competitive from week to week.

It is obviously not a model for road race cycling: that is evident from the word "road". But at least here, athletics, even in non Olympic years, gets about 10 times the coverage that cycling does in mass media. The football/cricket fan who listens to the rest of the sports news bulletin will know many many times more athletes' names than cyclists'.

 

[Oldman]

...no worries but thanks for the concern...I'm familiar with the technique that is being used and how to survive its application...its called sound shooting and if you lay low and keep quiet you'll be OK...

...and for those not familiar with the term, sound shooting is a time honoured hunting technique used by American hunters...it involves shooting at any sound they hear when they are in the bush...and lest you think I'm exaggerating, the Ontario government, some time ago instituted a staggered hunting season( we realized long ago that wearing safety vests is only useful if the other hunters give a s**t about anybody else...we are just Mexicans in sweaters as the joke goes ) ...so the first part of the season is for the locals, then there is a lull period during which everybody can get out of the bush and then they let the Americans go in and play their war games....and when I say war games I mean war games because these guys carry some serious ordinance....its either peashooters with banana clips ( high velocity small bore ) or shoulder mounted cannons more appropriate for stopping polar bears...by contrast the locals used to use army surplus Lee-Enfields ( real cheap, good slug weight, shoot straight and have great range )...the other advantage the L/E has is that if you do have a bad shot and hit the carcass you don't damage much meat...the American style is to blow the moose to pieces which leaves little or no usable meat but to be fair they are only in it for the sport anyway...oh, and a trophy to commemorate the kill...so they shoot up a storm and then they generally chop the head off with a chainsaw and their day is done...sorry, way long, but I had to do some back-filling...

...and as an Aussie you'll get this...these guys are like the stereotypical bad Brit lout but minus the vestige of good manners...kinda of a lose lose scenario...( you guys are so lucky to be an island...we here ,dream of such a luxury...because these guys just roll across the border virtually unimpeded...)

Cheers

blutto

I know good hunters and have met bad. The only part you missed is the very apparent inability in the Bad American hunters to handle the amount of liquor they consume. Brits, Aussies, Irish, Scots; they handle their crazy times knowing what a broken nose feels like. These guys think they are invincible and end up shooting a Vietnamese immigrant citizen with a ridiculous amount of rounds.
All hunters should have to score their first kill while hunting naked. No more licenses unless you do it.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Teams wanting split...

"These are Radioshack, Saxo Bank-SunGard, Quick Step, Garmin-Cervélo and Movistar. They are supported by six others, namely Omega Pharma-Lotto, Leopard-Trek, HTC-HighRoad, Liquigas, Rabobank and Sky Procycling. Johan Bruyneel and Jonathan Vaughters are named as two key people in the project. " - Velonation

 

[thehog]

Teams wanting split...

"These are Radioshack, Saxo Bank-SunGard, Quick Step, Garmin-Cervélo and Movistar. They are supported by six others, namely Omega Pharma-Lotto, Leopard-Trek, HTC-HighRoad, Liquigas, Rabobank and Sky Procycling. Johan Bruyneel and Jonathan Vaughters are named as two key people in the project. " - Velonation

They also have a plethora of Pro-Conti teams that want join also...... the list is endless. With the big names they have the rest will follow.

Hate to say it but well done Hog.... and me mate JayV.

 

[auscyclefan94]

They also have a plethora of Pro-Conti teams that want join also...... the list is endless. With the big names they have the rest will follow.

Hate to say it but well done Hog.... and me mate JayV.

We all better say well done hog just to boost his very small ego!

BMC are neutral. They are like The netherlands or Spain in WWI I guess

 

[thehog]

We all better say well done hog just to boost his very small ego!

BMC are neutral. They are like The netherlands or Spain in WWI I guess

I think the Hog is a scumbag but I think years of paying off the UCI he's sick of it.... so I can see why he jumped ship and got into bed with JayV.

I'm sure the Hog will turn on his own people like a middle eastern dictator as some point but for the moment he's creating change. Which is a good thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Teams wanting split...

"These are Radioshack, Saxo Bank-SunGard, Quick Step, Garmin-Cervélo and Movistar. They are supported by six others, namely Omega Pharma-Lotto, Leopard-Trek, HTC-HighRoad, Liquigas, Rabobank and Sky Procycling. Johan Bruyneel and Jonathan Vaughters are named as two key people in the project. " - Velonation

link

http://bit.ly/h9aepw

for those who want to read the whole article.

 

[Roland Rat]

If they succeed it will be terrible for cycling. You simply cannot trust teams to govern the sport, particulary one as large and as fluid as cycling. Yes, the UCI is f***ed up, but IMO what we have now is much, much better than a "closed shop" Premier League system. A lot can be done to improve cycling, eg running women's races alongside major events, sorting out broadcasting rights so we can actually see them, having a clear and transparent system for entry into the Worldtour. But you always need an independent body to oversee things.

Furthermore, if the teams control the TV rights and "the show", I assure you anti-doping will go out the window. It will all be about what's good for TV, and what's good for TV is doped-up freaks making super-human efforts. And anything bad for TV will be hushed up.

The continual comparisons to Premier League football and F1 are clearly by people who have no clue about what actually goes on and just see $$$ signs. The Premier League is a mess. You have to be phenomenally stupid to fail a drug test, every club is in massive debt and one season away from bankruptcy. F1 is the same, there are only two manufacturers remaining as teams, the others are bank-rolled by rich benefactors/sponsors who cannot be guaranteed to remain in the sport more than a season at a time. CVC, who "own" formula 1, are something like £300m in debt. And in both sports the common factor (other than that the grass-roots of both sports are dying as all light is shone on the head) is that the fans get bent over and wallet-raped for the pleasure. Is that what people want - £30+/month fees to watch races on TV or the internet? £100+ ticket charges to the start and/or finish zones of races?

Finally, so what, the protectors of the future of cycling are Barnaby Riis and The Hog? You really couldn't make this *** up.

Yes, the UCI is a disaster zone. But giving power to the teams is NOT the way for sport to be run.

 

[thehog]

Are you guys mad? For years you’ve been p!ssing on the UCI and now a revolution is in the wind and you want p!ss on that too? Look whether you like it or not Riis and the Hog are players. Major players in the cycling world. Love them or hate them you need them on board to makes this happen. Mark Madiot has been trying for years but no one listens to him. For this to be successful you need to the Hog and Riis on board. Won’t work otherwise. When Kerry Packer did this with cricket and Murdoch with football what eventually happens is the government body gets on board as the “administration arm” – they have no choice as there’s no cyclists left to govern.

This is all good. Its not going to be a doping free for all. Much better the promotion of the sport (the new entity) and the anti-doping (UCI) is separated. This is what we’ve always wanted.

So stop crying the lot of you.

 

[veganrob]

I know good hunters and have met bad. The only part you missed is the very apparent inability in the Bad American hunters to handle the amount of liquor they consume. Brits, Aussies, Irish, Scots; they handle their crazy times knowing what a broken nose feels like. These guys think they are invincible and end up shooting a Vietnamese immigrant citizen with a ridiculous amount of rounds.
All hunters should have to score their first kill while hunting naked. No more licenses unless you do it.

That is very funny. And I second that motion.

 

[hrotha]

Hog, your reasoning only works if the UCI, bad as it is, were the greatest conceivable evil. But it's not. Most problems with the UCI stem from the fact that they're responsible both for promoting and for policing the sport. Now, can you imagine what sort of conflict of interest there'll be if the biggest teams are in charge?

 

[Roland Rat]

Hog, your reasoning only works if the UCI, bad as it is, were the greatest conceivable evil. But it's not. Most problems with the UCI stem from the fact that they're responsible both for promoting and for policing the sport. Now, can you imagine what sort of conflict of interest there'll be if the biggest teams are in charge?

Exactly. Yes, the UCI is a mess and needs reforming or replacing, but what the teams are proposing is not the answer.

 

[thehog]

Hog, your reasoning only works if the UCI, bad as it is, were the greatest conceivable evil. But it's not. Most problems with the UCI stem from the fact that they're responsible both for promoting and for policing the sport. Now, can you imagine what sort of conflict of interest there'll be if the biggest teams are in charge?

The teams don't want to be in charge. They only want to be able to promote the sport. They have no interest in being in charge. They want a seat at the table and be able to make decisions with the UCI. They don't want to run the sport or perform anti-doping they just want a say in how the sport is run and how its marketed.

Believe me once all the teams have gone... the UCI will follow. Sometimes to effect change you have to protest. The key to effective government is a strong opposition. At this point the UCI doesn't have an opposition. The UCI doesn't consult and it doesn’t allow the teams and riders to have a say. This is the only way..... for now.

Did you read my post? I said the teams will be in charge of promotion and technology and the UCI in policing. Thats what we all wanted.

 

[Ferminal]

Hog, your reasoning only works if the UCI, bad as it is, were the greatest conceivable evil. But it's not. Most problems with the UCI stem from the fact that they're responsible both for promoting and for policing the sport. Now, can you imagine what sort of conflict of interest there'll be if the biggest teams are in charge?

Surely the teams themselves will not have complete power?

The most important party in a new agreement would be the ASO and RCS, they would hold more power than the teams.

Does the Hog/JV/Riis actually think they can do this without them?

 

[R.0.t.O]

Hog, your reasoning only works if the UCI, bad as it is, were the greatest conceivable evil. But it's not. Most problems with the UCI stem from the fact that they're responsible both for promoting and for policing the sport. Now, can you imagine what sort of conflict of interest there'll be if the biggest teams are in charge?

This is true. What I think we need is more separation of control and fewer conflicts of interest. We have three major players: the governing body; the race organisers; and the competitors/teams. Surely the obvious thing is to make everyone responsible for what they're supposed to do best - the UCI should make the rules (racing rules rather than competition rules), do the dope testing, sanction riders as appropriate but be otherwise out of the picture; the competitors/teams should turn up, shut up, and race; and the race organisers (probably in some cartel-style grouping) should come up with the competitions and make the commercial decisions.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

If they succeed it will be terrible for cycling. You simply cannot trust teams to govern the sport, particulary one as large and as fluid as cycling. Yes, the UCI is f***ed up, but IMO what we have now is much, much better than a "closed shop" Premier League system. A lot can be done to improve cycling, eg running women's races alongside major events, sorting out broadcasting rights so we can actually see them, having a clear and transparent system for entry into the Worldtour. But you always need an independent body to oversee things.

Furthermore, if the teams control the TV rights and "the show", I assure you anti-doping will go out the window. It will all be about what's good for TV, and what's good for TV is doped-up freaks making super-human efforts. And anything bad for TV will be hushed up.

The continual comparisons to Premier League football and F1 are clearly by people who have no clue about what actually goes on and just see $$$ signs. The Premier League is a mess. You have to be phenomenally stupid to fail a drug test, every club is in massive debt and one season away from bankruptcy. F1 is the same, there are only two manufacturers remaining as teams, the others are bank-rolled by rich benefactors/sponsors who cannot be guaranteed to remain in the sport more than a season at a time. CVC, who "own" formula 1, are something like £300m in debt. And in both sports the common factor (other than that the grass-roots of both sports are dying as all light is shone on the head) is that the fans get bent over and wallet-raped for the pleasure. Is that what people want - £30+/month fees to watch races on TV or the internet? £100+ ticket charges to the start and/or finish zones of races?

Finally, so what, the protectors of the future of cycling are Barnaby Riis and The Hog? You really couldn't make this *** up.

Yes, the UCI is a disaster zone. But giving power to the teams is NOT the way for sport to be run.

I think you are making some inaccurate assumptions about a league format. Your main point is that trusting teams to run the sport inherently will bring back doping deregulation. But how would a new league's interests in doping control change from the UCI's? The UCI's interest is to create a level playing field, maintain a positive competitive image for the public, in order to/and create a safe investment (safe from negative public images, performance lost by banned riders even) for sponsors.

Any logical business format will maintain this approach. Other leagues do not need to create accountability for trust from sponsors, the spectacle is much different. But, cycling has a different history and culture. Doping is a well established paradigm of cycling, for better or worse, among a general population. While fewer positives resulting from weaker testing will create a better image, as you imply, there will not be satisfaction from fans, or sponsors. No off-shoot league will survive financing if it does not provide strict guarantees of doping control; nobody will support a radical break that embraces the biggest negative about the current cycling culture. Similarly, teams are currently ideologically driven in creating purer sport. This fact is exemplified by not only the break-off initiative, but their stance on doping in a world of only increasing accessibility and security in PEDs. Clinical innovations provide the means, but I think everyone can agree that teams are no longer providing the will, evidenced by a seeming downward shift in systemic team doping, as well as changes in racing style, performance statistics, and other observations that support our current understanding of cycling as a cleaner sport.

It took a while, but my point is that like other leagues, a league format will be economically successful because of its business approach to operation: creating efficiency in its structure, more influence from those directly related to competition, and more responsiveness to outside and internal forces. But, more importantly, it will not be unlike other leagues, because the pervading historical doping culture will need to drive a new league to create more security against that image, if it will survive as an innovation on the old system.

I don't know about F1 at all, but I also think its worth posing to this board that they look beyond one example. Certainly its international, but there are both positive and negative examples of league formats. American football is in a lockout because of salary issues (more or less), but the NBA is maintaining a new interest. MLB is filled with doping, but MLS has found success appealing only to its niche. I cannot provide much else, its worth it to its discussion if others can.

 

[Lanark]

One big difference between cycling and other sports (like football) is that the stable factor in cycling aren't the teams, it's the races (and the UCI). There are some older teams like Lotto or Rabobank, but most teams have a short lifespan, especially compared to a sport like football, which has teams that are over a 100 years old.

In a sport like that (football), the teams have a long term interest in the succes of the sport. In cycling, they don't. Guys like Riis and Bruyneel (and I believe Vaughters as well) don't even have a sponsor for next year, if they don't find one, they are out of cycling next year. With this structure, it's almost unavoidable that the teams will allways care about nothing but their short term interests, and therefore you need an organisation like the UCI that stands above the parties, and has that long term perspective. Of course, the UCI are far from perfect, and can be improved upon in many areas, but you need an organisation like that.

The teams complain that the UCI treats them like children, and behave like dictators, true as that may be, you need such a stable factor in the sport. If you give the teams a big input in cycling policy, they could decide on one thing this year (keep the radios), but the next year you could have five new teams, who decide the opposite (ban the radios). The teams have only short term interests, and their composition is far too fluid to give them a big influence on the UCI policy.


Crackpot theory time: what Bruyneel, Riis and Vaughters want is a bigger cut of the television-rights. They are sick of begging sponsors every year for a 1 or 2 year contract, they want to become long term players in cycling. If they get a significant cut of the TV-pie, having a big sponsor is only a secondary source of income, their teams can survive without it. If in such a system they get to decide who has a right to that money, who is part of the in-group, they can set themselves up as the main players in cycling for the next 20 years, without having to worry about those pesky UCI rules, and not having to go on a constant sponsor-hunt, and without the swords of Damocles above their heads that could end their involvement in cycling the moment they fail to find a new sponsor.

 

[roundabout]

I don't see anything crackpot about the last paragraph.

 

[Ferminal]

Crackpot theory time: what Bruyneel, Riis and Vaughters want is a bigger cut of the television-rights. They are sick of begging sponsors every year for a 1 or 2 year contract, they want to become long term players in cycling. If they get a significant cut of the TV-pie, having a big sponsor is only a secondary source of income, their teams can survive without it. If in such a system they get to decide who has a right to that money, who is part of the in-group, they can set themselves up as the main players in cycling for the next 20 years, without having to worry about those pesky UCI rules, and not having to go on a constant sponsor-hunt, and without the swords of Damocles above their heads that could end their involvement in cycling the moment they fail to find a new sponsor.

Except the only way they could get TV rights is through the race organisers, and there is no way the race organisers would commit to giving managers long-term invite guarantees for their teams.