13th BinckBank Tour (2.UWT) 7.8 - 13.8

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Samamba said:
Red Rick said:
Tim Wellens is going for the WC this year? The Belgians need him for a rainy day.
He wants to, but obv GVA & Gilbert are gonne be the leaders of the team.
If it rains I'm not sure gva and Gilbert are stronger than Aquaman wellens. Actually I'm quite sure they aren't and I think I read somewhere that it rains quite often in Bergen
 
Sep 6, 2016
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Jagartrott said:
del1962 said:
Did you actually watch the race, Sagan was doing loads of chasing, not much help from those with is, yo come across as a bit ignorant
Sorry del-boy - I'm not ignorant.
The groups Sagan encountered were dead meat. Riders shed on such a parcours under these weather conditions are of no use to you, the strongest are in front. So expecting help from them is stupid (no teammates there), and getting frustrated because they try to stay with you is equally stupid. They're there because they were not strong enough to follow, so shed them and concentrate only on minimizing the loss. Ultimately, he would've been riding one against two (Wellens - Dumoulin). Dumoulin also concentrated only on himself in that Giro stage, ignored wheelsuckers, and it won him the race (and my immense respect). Sagan had a 'Flanders' stage upcoming, where he should be better than both Wellens and Dumoulin. It was not impossible.
Yeah, because the advantage of drafting on a mountain and the flat are the same :lol:
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I'm still surprised GVA was not in that final selection. He had Dumoulin's wheel.. he just couldn't follow. On a long climb ok, but this was like 1km at 8%. Hmm
Surprised? The last race where he was in top shape was Paris Roubaix.
 
Aug 13, 2016
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Durden93 said:
Yeah, because the advantage of drafting on a mountain and the flat are the same :lol:
He kinda had a point however. It is hard to not see Sagan trying to "police" the peleton "culture" whenever there seems to be no impetus to race the race.

Whether it is because it annoys him so much, he has a Jesus complex to fix the world, or it is simple long term tactics to make sure he has partners in future races. He really does spend more than the usual ammount of energy pointing out the "not riding" riders.

Addo: The funny part is that he never has this "issue" with the likes of Gilbert, GVA, or even Nibali for that matter.
 
As expected Ardennes stage delivered. It was hard enough to create huge gaps! But okay I'm a joke.

I'm letting the CNF experts speak. Only wanted to share my pleasure of seeing Tim Wellens winning the stage with a 1'42" lead on Sagan. :cool: But okay I guess Tim was not the stronger today because when Sagan loses a race, as a rule, it's because he's got bad luck or his opponents are always making him lose, etc. There's always a good excuse.
 
Oct 1, 2015
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Sagan was mighty impressive on that climbs only Wellens was able to be with him. He will destroy them on the Muur, Bosberg combo tommorrow. But gc is impossible imo. I hope he win tommorrow.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Wellens is a god when it comes to this race.
Politt surprised me, I knew that he was good on cobbles, but I thought that this one could be too hard for an 80kg guy like him, but he managed to limit his losses.
 
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Durden93 said:
Jagartrott said:
del1962 said:
Did you actually watch the race, Sagan was doing loads of chasing, not much help from those with is, yo come across as a bit ignorant
Sorry del-boy - I'm not ignorant.
The groups Sagan encountered were dead meat. Riders shed on such a parcours under these weather conditions are of no use to you, the strongest are in front. So expecting help from them is stupid (no teammates there), and getting frustrated because they try to stay with you is equally stupid. They're there because they were not strong enough to follow, so shed them and concentrate only on minimizing the loss. Ultimately, he would've been riding one against two (Wellens - Dumoulin). Dumoulin also concentrated only on himself in that Giro stage, ignored wheelsuckers, and it won him the race (and my immense respect). Sagan had a 'Flanders' stage upcoming, where he should be better than both Wellens and Dumoulin. It was not impossible.
Yeah, because the advantage of drafting on a mountain and the flat are the same :lol:
Yes, today was very flat indeed. How long was Gilbert's solo in RVV?
It was one against two today, and Sagan gave up because he was unable or unwilling to focus. It was very difficult, but who knows what will happen tomorrow? Like I said, I was disappointed by Sagan today.
 
Mar 26, 2017
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Jagartrott said:
Like I said, I was disappointed by Sagan today.
I think Sagan is getting frustrated on the long run. It's probably not much fun when most riders prefer guaranteed loss in not working with him to small chance while working with him.
It apparently gets on his nerves.
 
It's not really other riders' fault though. It's only sensible tactics when you have somebody who is as strong as Sagan is AND as good a sprinter as he is, to make them tire themselves out in order to be able to then take advantage by gapping him. The problem is, when you have riders as strong as Wellens and Dumoulin up the road and working well, they're going to put time into Sagan working on his own, but by the time Sagan is spent they'll be out of sight. It's no different to everybody hitching a ride on the Boonen train while Cancellara rode into the distance in Roubaix 2010, now, is it? As Óscar Freire said, in order to win, first you must be prepared to risk losing.

The other thing is that an in-form Sagan is a very dangerous, multi-purpose threat. To beat him, you must tire him sufficiently. Just attacking often isn't enough as he is powerful enough that he can bridge a lot of small gaps by himself. When you don't have multiple riders in a group to play the 1-2 trick, you have to gamble on other riders' attacks not being the ones that he can't pull back and wait for him to tire himself out. When everybody in the group isolates him as the biggest threat, everybody will be watching him to chase down that move rather than rider C marking rider D while rider B is expecting rider A to chase. And also, at Gent-Wevelgem Sagan demonstrated that Terpstra using that tactic got under his skin and angered him, in which case he's more likely to get frustrated and defeat himself by doing something tactically boneheaded. He has left the implication earlier in the season that he does feel entitled to be able to contest the win in any race within his remit, such as with his reckless barging of Vantomme after being caught out of position, and though upon review of the specific Tour incident he recanted his opinion of that one crash, Greipel's opining on Sagan after the Tour incident that he felt he had a god-given right to be at the front is telling; he needs to be better at bluffing when it's getting to him if he wants people to collaborate.

In that vein, maybe there are a few riders out there, as per the Quick Step posturing in the spring, who won't ride with him just because they want to see him lose. But there are plenty of riders out there for whom not collaborating with Sagan is actually their ploy to win, because they don't see it as trading a very likely loss (sprinting against Sagan) for a guaranteed loss (the attackers not being pulled back), but instead as trading a very likely loss (unless Sagan keeps the gap bridgable) for a likely loss (escaping or sprinting from a group with an exhausted Sagan). When you think about it, he should be glad they pay him that compliment - he's so dangerous that riders value their chances higher letting the escape go than they do working with him. But the UCI points system holds a lot of blame for that as well, overvaluing some fairly nondescript or anonymous placements whereas if lower end top 10 places weren't worth protecting maybe he'd find more takers when he flicks his elbow. Or maybe not, as he'd still be the best sprinter of the group.
 
Mar 26, 2017
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Not really saying it's other riders fault...
It's just the feeling I get from some of his outbursts in his native language.

Well, to a degree I think they're stupid at times. Sometimes its tactics to have a chance to win, then it's fine, but sometimes it's so clear that if they won't work they will all loose and they still don't work.
Anyway, their job, their tactics...

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he's great bike handler, ... , I even like his stupid videos, but my opinion is that the extra talent he got is somewhat compensated by simpler mind. Not saying he's stupid, I do not know, but he's no Kwiatko when it comes to cleverness. That's his major weakness.
 
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d-s3 said:
Not really saying it's other riders fault...
It's just the feeling I get from some of his outbursts in his native language.

Well, to a degree I think they're stupid at times. Sometimes its tactics to have a chance to win, then it's fine, but sometimes it's so clear that if they won't work they will all loose and they still don't work.
Anyway, their job, their tactics...

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he's great bike handler, ... , I even like his stupid videos, but my opinion is that the extra talent he got is somewhat compensated by simpler mind. Not saying he's stupid, I do not know, but he's no Kwiatko when it comes to cleverness. That's his major weakness.
Because it is the norm. Don't work with Sagan.

While they might very well lose by not working with him, and that their tactics during that single race doesn't help them in any way, the next race, they might be the ones up ahead who profits. Given who Sagan is, how strong he is and how he rides, it's perfectly natural that such a norm flourishes.
 
I am quite disapointed with Sagan as well. He should have definitly stopped looking back and should have start timetrailing to the end minimazing the lost. He does not have a GC rider thinking. He rides each stage as one day race.
On the other hand today result can be good for the race. With bad weather, pissed of Sagan, we might see a fireworks tommorow. I am really looking forward to tomorrow stage. I know that GC is lost for him, but we can see good cycling at least.
 
Sep 6, 2016
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I don't see anything wrong with Sagan sitting up. There's a difference between giving up and saving your resources. If he gets a stage win tomorrow it'll be well worth it. Also, great ride by Wellens. Good to see more from him than a late attack.
 
Jun 24, 2013
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Today I think the frustration with Sagan was that he felt he had great legs even to chase back and felt that if there was another (or two) guys of his caliber in that chasing group they could have considerably closed the gap but all those guys were dropped earlier so it's normal they couldn't get the gap down.
 
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Durden93 said:
Also, great ride by Wellens. Good to see more from him than a late attack.
It was a late attack. With Tim Wellens we'd rather have to say "good to see more from him than a long range attack". For those who saw last year's Tour of Poland at least ...


By the way, Sagan-tards are really beyond the reach of human reason here. The "lack of cooperation" from group mate in this case is an absolute illusion, an invention of their creative mind. I mean were they talking about yesterday's stage or what? I saw Sep Vanmarcke increasing the tempo biting the teeth, etc. That does not exist in their own clouded minds. Sutherlin never set the tempo no no no That does not exist. Reality does not exist. Sometimes we should bear in mind that the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" ...
 
Could Sagan's fury give Naesen chance to do something similar as terpstra did lest year, from the performances so far, him, if anybody will be able to match Sagan in the end. Gva is obviously not in top climbing form.

Also, given that Sagan would attack early, should dumoulin and wellens try to follow or should they go their own pace. I guess they could implode by following sagan.
 
And by using that wording you think you come off any different, Echoes?

I'm a big Sagan-fan and understand his frustration, but at the same time dont think it's justified reg. yesterdays stage.

Considering the names in group3, if they weren't completely spent, I'm sure there was enough "will to race" in the group.
 
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