1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[pmcg76]

But it would be career suicide in the sport before Festina to speak out? That sounds like bullying. Just because you can't see the team boss or whoever, making the calls to destroy someone's career, just because it's not documented, doesn't make it any less bullying.

No that is ometra, there is a slight difference in being expected to keep schtum and being actively bullied and chased with lawyers.

 

[Bat Man]

How come you didn't take back the things you said before and which have been proven wrong, and instead you just keep trying to come up with ways to smear LeMond?

Guys, don't bother. Ignore him.

This is being presented as a new story about the level of systematic doping on the team. I asked twice what he said at the time. Eventually a link was posted to something his lawyer said. I don't think I have to take back anything.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is being prevented as a new story about the level of systematic doping on the team. I asked twice what he said at the time. Eventually a link was posted to something his lawyer said. I don't think I have to take back anything.

It certainly is not a new story that there was systematic doping in PDM - but some more detail has about exactly what went on.

The highlighted shows your only interest in this thread.

 

[Irish2009]

Batman......While doping was systamatic in cycling pre Armstrong I think it's well established that the doping products used in this era were never going to turn a donkey into a race horse, even the great Laurent Fignon stated this and that "blood doping changed all that", turning tall fat feckers into climbers and skinny climbers into time trialists, this was a game changer. Up until blood doping , dopers didnt become champions unless they were already knocking on the door,the start of blood doping ment that "average" riders doping correctly could now become champions, and that champions that didnt dope could only be average. Lemond chose not to dope and could still beat the dopers, during the blood doping era nobody that wasn't blood doping could win a GT. In Lemonds era a rider who didnt dope could still compete and therefore there was less anamosity to doping because it didnt give the advantage blood doping did/does. The most worrying thing about PDM was the fact the manager said that the UCI used the team to test PEDS to see their effect, did the UCI give PDM a carte blanche to dope????

 

[Oldman]

Batman......While doping was systamatic in cycling pre Armstrong I think it's well established that the doping products used in this era were never going to turn a donkey into a race horse, even the great Laurent Fignon stated this and that "blood doping changed all that", turning tall fat feckers into climbers and skinny climbers into time trialists, this was a game changer. Up until blood doping , dopers didnt become champions unless they were already knocking on the door,the start of blood doping ment that "average" riders doping correctly could now become champions, and that champions that didnt dope could only be average. Lemond chose not to dope and could still beat the dopers, during the blood doping era nobody that wasn't blood doping could win a GT. In Lemonds era a rider who didnt dope could still compete and therefore there was less anamosity to doping because it didnt give the advantage blood doping did/does. The most worrying thing about PDM was the fact the manager said that the UCI used the team to test PEDS to see their effect, did the UCI give PDM a carte blanche to dope????

That's why Lemond also had consistent wins in other races besides the Tour. Not to add pointless detail but the strategy to win a Tour pre-EPO/blood doping was different. If you went in super light you'd: a) lack power for early stages & lose time b) lack recovery c) be spent before the mountains. Anyone thinking Lemond was "too big" to be a climber should review picture of him in week two and three of the race. He's a slim as any climber but actually had hips and shoulders. We're focused now on climbers that have the shoulder and hips of a 12 year old ballerina. A physique like that does not time trial without some extra hemo....

 

[Big Doopie]

agreed, oldman.

however check him out here at the start of the 1991 tour (21 secs in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKlVylqf79E

pretty freakin' skeletal up top. he just had those huge powerful legs.

 

[BroDeal]

agreed, oldman.

however check him out here at the start of the 1991 tour (21 secs in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKlVylqf79E

pretty freakin' skeletal up top. he just had those huge powerful legs.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

This is not a Lemond thread. Please stay on topic. Or else.

Susan

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Interesting. Sometimes people present Armstrong as an exceptional bully in the peloton that took omerta to new levels. But you say it was actually a lot worse before his time. Maybe someone should tell the mainstream media.

where exactly did pm destroy lemond financially and mentally, or his wife?

 

[Neworld]

With the PDM doping and Delgados Positive that would give S.Bauer an honorary 2nd place? Any knowledge of Fabio Parra(KELME) being doped? KELMA certainly wasn't clean! Maybe Steve was the first Canadian to win a GT after all.

I have to feel sorry for S. Bauer, LeMond and Andy H during that time riding clean, making the right decisions with their natural talent...sometimes winning but most times coming so close to winning but losing out.

These men are among the true champions and examples of clean sport. Maybe CN should get them all in a room and at least do one interview; or more!

If they could produce a refreshing book about 'those' years...the rise of N.Am riders, the code to break into Europe, the races, the drugs and how that affected their training and inevitable depressed mood, and finally when and why they decided to quit that would be a hit with cycling fans. sadly it's clear that PDM was a negative influence on that era.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

the colombians in the 80s were clean, that's the sad thing about it. the 90s they would've dominated but no worries, this decennium the colombians are going rampant again since the european scene is cleaner than ever.

 

[Franklin]

the colombians in the 80s were clean, that's the sad thing about it. the 90s they would've dominated but no worries, this decennium the colombians are going rampant again since the european scene is cleaner than ever.

Evidence please?

It would be nice if people stuck to verifiable facts instead of just blurting out opinion.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Evidence please?

It would be nice if people stuck to verifiable facts instead of just blurting out opinion.

why don't you show evidence of colombians doping in the 80s? not one has ever been caught in europe. it would simply be too much of a disaster if they would. colombian riders above all represent their country, which is an honor hard to understand.

besides when epo came up, the colombians all went down. that ram exactly paralel with each other. parra wasn't old but by early 90s, he was gone and was only 30, similar to lemond, herrera(even younger) and others

 

[D-Queued]

why don't you show evidence of colombians doping in the 80s? not one has ever been caught in europe. it would simply be too much of a disaster if they would. colombian riders above all represent their country, which is an honor hard to understand.

besides when epo came up, the colombians all went down. that ram exactly paralel with each other. parra wasn't old but by early 90s, he was gone and was only 30, similar to lemond, herrera(even younger) and others

Do you want pictures? Or just witness testimony?

I have always wondered why all those national champions from countries other than Colombia even bother wearing special jerseys. Pretenders.

I agree. Colombians, even the non-national champs, would always put country before doping.

Dave.

 

[Escarabajo]

With the PDM doping and Delgados Positive that would give S.Bauer an honorary 2nd place? Any knowledge of Fabio Parra(KELME) being doped? KELMA certainly wasn't clean! Maybe Steve was the first Canadian to win a GT after all.

I have to feel sorry for S. Bauer, LeMond and Andy H during that time riding clean, making the right decisions with their natural talent...sometimes winning but most times coming so close to winning but losing out.

These men are among the true champions and examples of clean sport. Maybe CN should get them all in a room and at least do one interview; or more!

If they could produce a refreshing book about 'those' years...the rise of N.Am riders, the code to break into Europe, the races, the drugs and how that affected their training and inevitable depressed mood, and finally when and why they decided to quit that would be a hit with cycling fans. sadly it's clear that PDM was a negative influence on that era.

This is Kelme from the 80's not the 90's or 2000's. What you are implying is simply a very looooong shot. It is not reallistic. I'll accept it from the 90's but not in 1988. These riders in top position always showed talent very early anyway, it would be very unfair and hard to proof that the positions would have changed.

 

[Franklin]

why don't you show evidence of colombians doping in the 80s? not one has ever been caught in europe. it would simply be too much of a disaster if they would. colombian riders above all represent their country, which is an honor hard to understand.

besides when epo came up, the colombians all went down. that ram exactly paralel with each other. parra wasn't old but by early 90s, he was gone and was only 30, similar to lemond, herrera(even younger) and others

I'm sorry, but if we hadn't read Fignons biography we wouldn't have known about his drug use. I definitely say I don't know. Yet you are convinced they are clean without similar evidence.

And well, your characterisation of nationalistic characteristics are ludicrous. You imply that there are noble countries and evil countries? The corrupt Latin Europeans versus the noble Anglo Saxons? Just a cursory glance shows that dope crosses very border and that there are no countries which are exceptionally clean.

Or is Botero the token villain?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm sorry, but if we hadn't read Fignons biography we wouldn't have known about his drug use. I definitely say I don't know. Yet you are convinced they are clean without similar evidence.

And well, your characterisation of nationalistic characteristics are ludicrous. You imply that there are noble countries and evil countries? The corrupt Latin Europeans versus the noble Anglo Saxons? Just a cursory glance shows that dope crosses very border and that there are no countries which are exceptionally clean.

Or is Botero the token villain?

Guess he is just Jody Bernal

The Columbians were clean, I am certain of that, without a shadow of a doubt. Didn't need 'zakje bloed' to kill the Alpe d'Huez.

 

[esafosfina]

Apart from a documented case of a Columbian rider 'smuggling' cocaine in his frame (can't be arsed to dredge through google, sorry) Maria Calle also got pinged... so Columbians 'per se' ain't immune to the juice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/María_Luisa_Calle

 

[hrotha]

not one has ever been caught in europe. it would simply be too much of a disaster if they would. colombian riders above all represent their country, which is an honor hard to understand.

Drop this. Colombians doped in Europe in the 90s, just like everyone else, and this is well documented. Sure, they only got guys in the decent to good range, because physiologically they didn't benefit from blood doping as much as others (with possible exceptions), but they doped.

That said, in the 80s most of them probably didn't (some might have, of course; and someone riding for Kelme is a better candidate than most). The boost you'd get from doping wasn't that big, they came from a different cycling culture and they weren't in the European peloton for that long, so unless doping was particularly prevalent in Colombia itself (which I doubt) they'd have a good chance of being clean.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Evidence please?

It would be nice if people stuck to verifiable facts instead of just blurting out opinion.

Where's your evidence claiming they werent clean?

 

[Franklin]

Where's your evidence claiming they werent clean?

Why would I need evidence for something I don't say?

I do not know.

Hence I do not claim to know.

Ryo knows, so I wonder what his evidence is. Maybe they have been tested 500 times each?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Why would I need evidence for something I don't say?

I do not know.

Hence I do not claim to know.

Ryo knows, so I wonder what his evidence is. Maybe they have been tested 500 times each?

Hmmm...I'm confused...in post #107 of this thread, you ask a poster for evidence to prove someone was clean, so why is it out of the question for someone to ask you to produce evidence saying the contrary that whoever was "for sure" doping, as you've alluded to? How do you know they weren't clean?

How can YOU ask for something from someone, YOU yourself can't provide for rebuttal?

You also claim you "dont know".......well, if you "dont know" either way, how can YOU yourself craft an opinion on something YOU know nothing about?

You also say you wished people would post factual...blah blah blah before voicing their opinions....aren't you doing the exact same thing?

Oh the irony

 

[hrotha]

No, he isn't. Franklin hasn't claimed anything.

 

[Franklin]

Hmmm...I'm confused...in post #107 of this thread, you ask a poster for evidence to prove someone was clean, so why is it out of the question for someone to ask you to produce evidence saying the contrary that whoever was "for sure" doping, as you've alluded to? How do you know they weren't clean?

I never say someone is doping unless there is a confession or irrefutable proof.

How can YOU ask for something from someone, YOU yourself can't provide for rebuttal?

I did rebut his reasoning. Colombians are humans. Botero doped. National character is no evidence of being clean.

You also claim you "dont know".......well, if you "dont know" either way, how can YOU yourself craft an opinion on something YOU know nothing about?

Why do you think I know nothing of cycling in the 80'ies? I simply do not know if Herrera and co used dope. I also don't know if Hinault used dope. I certainly can live with "Herrera and the Colombians were probably clean and certainly not using blood vector doping".

Assumption is something else as knowing for sure.

It's like claiming Froome and Wiggins certainly doped... it's nonsense. Just as saying they certainly are clean.

You also say you wished people would post factual...blah blah blah before voicing their opinions....aren't you doing the exact same thing?

Oh the irony

When I post opinion I try to make clear it is just that. And yes, I'm sure I screw up on that standard, but I do try to keep myself to it. And I have no problem being called out on it and reiterate my position.

I hope I cleared this up for you.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I'm sorry, but if we hadn't read Fignons biography we wouldn't have known about his drug use. I definitely say I don't know. Yet you are convinced they are clean without similar evidence.

And well, your characterisation of nationalistic characteristics are ludicrous. You imply that there are noble countries and evil countries? The corrupt Latin Europeans versus the noble Anglo Saxons? Just a cursory glance shows that dope crosses very border and that there are no countries which are exceptionally clean.

Or is Botero the token villain?

fignon's book is a joke in that regard. besides he was racist and only claimed they were all adicted to coke. typical colombian coke using prejudice.

fignon is an ***hole for saying that considering how many colombians were killed because of coke and how many cyclists lost their lifes and lifes of their family by being forced to traffic coke as cyclists by the cartels.

but please show me some structural japanese athletes who doped that country is probably the best example in this. I don't use evil or noble. because using doping isn't evil or noble. those are your words