1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Fortyninefourteen]

Yeah i have from a good source that Bauer said he could of dropped him but thought he would never beat him in the sprint...

The only rider in that field that could have beaten Bauer in a sprint was Davis Phinney. Bauer miscalculated Grewal's freshness, for lack of a better word. The rest is history

 

[Big Doopie]

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping.

because it is such a game changer. puts into question their actual level of talent and whether they deserved the results they got.

no one that i know believes thevenet is not a worthy winner of his two tours despite cortisone abuse. however, had he admitted to blood doping (albeit in the 70s!!), people would think he was a talentless fraud.

and there's the rub -- no one really questions that merckx, hinault, fignon, lemond were the best riders of their time. but once blood doping comes into play -- particularly as the science and delivery techniques improved -- it's anyone's guess as to who were truly the best riders...

 

[FitSsikS]

Bauer miscalculated Grewal's freshness, for lack of a better word. The rest is history

...and Steve underestimated how tired he was. He pushed the pace and with bigger gears. That definitely took the characteristic snap out of his legs.
I remember buying a VCR so that I could record that race!

 

[D-Queued]

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping. When it comes to EPO it's "at the end of my career", when it's now common knowledge that "everybody did it".

Nobody wants to admit they were among the first. And nobody wants to admit that they are only products of doping.

I dunno.

Lance said he only did a little bit of EPO.

Of course, maybe he meant in any one hour and was hooked up to a constant IV drip.

Dave.

 

[Escarabajo]

I dunno.

Lance said he only did a little bit of EPO.

Of course, maybe he meant in any one hour and was hooked up to a constant IV drip.

Dave.

He said a little bit of EPO when blood doping, which means it was used as masking agent mostly, as explained by Asheden.

 

[D-Queued]

He said a little bit of EPO when blood doping, which means it was used as masking agent mostly, as explained by Asheden.

How much EPO do you think he was doing in 1999 in the middle of the Tour?

Dave.

 

[Escarabajo]

How much EPO do you think he was doing in 1999 in the middle of the Tour?

Dave.

A lot. Pre-EPO test, before blood doping started again.

But during his interview he kind of played with the words, but when he said a little EPO he used the words blood doping also. He is cheating anyway.

 

[Oldman]

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping. When it comes to EPO it's "at the end of my career", when it's now common knowledge that "everybody did it".

Nobody wants to admit they were among the first. And nobody wants to admit that they are only products of doping.

Considering the number of premature deaths attributed to it's use, even among non-pros in the late 80's it's use certainly was widespread. I don't think the UCI acknowledged it until '88 and with no test that acknowledgement represented more of an advertisement than a deterrent.
It was poorly applied and the PDM pullout of the Tour was attributed to tainted EPO that hadn't been properly refrigerated. They claimed widespread flu as an excuse but no one bought that explanation.
Riders like Bauer and Hampsten no doubt thought that this was a dangerous line to cross considering the medical "talent" giving advice about EPO use and avoided it for moral or health reasons. I've never spoken to a pro from that period about what was known so that opinion is nothing more than a guess.

 

[Oldman]

As a former runner and new cycling fan, this period of racing made me overwhelming sceptical of the Pro scene. Experience on the amateur level and with USA Cycling only confirmed what I suspected. Even Phil Liggett's celtic chants about heroism didn't change it.

 

[Le breton]

How much EPO do you think he was doing in 1999 in the middle of the Tour?

Dave.

Ashenden in 2009

And as far as the fluctuations you speak of, when we took the samples' dates, and matched them with the percentage of isoforms, and overlaid that with the performances during the Tour de France, then a clear pattern begins to emerge. You can see that on some days there's a preponderance of EPO in the urine sample, perhaps on the next day they come down a little bit, then they come back up, which is suggesting you've taken another EPO injection.

You don't have EPO every single day. You might take it every two or three days. So your values go up or down according to when you took those injections and when those urine samples were taken. Now, you overlay all of those data together and you can begin to see a pattern that's consistent with EPO use.



Stage
Vial #
Visual

Interpretation
% Isoforms
Stage

description

Prologue
160297
+
100


1
157372
+
89.7


2-7





Out of lead,

not tested

8
186584
+
To be reanalyzed
Metz ITT

Rest day





9
185557
+
96.6
Sestriere

10
185479
+
88.7
L'Alpe d'Huez

11
185476

Sample missing


12
185475
+
95.2


13
185895
+
Weak intensity, no % recorded


14
186397
+
89.4


Rest day





15-20


Undetectable, insufficient EPO in urine
Sorry, not very readable.
I suggest you go to the original ashenden 2009 interview
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

 

[D-Queued]

Ashenden in 2009

...

Sorry, not very readable.
I suggest you go to the original ashenden 2009 interview
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

No problem. My question was rhetorical, by the way.

Here is Ashenden's salient point:

"...there was 100% basic isoforms, which is saying that 100% of the EPO that was showing up in the gel was synthetic EPO. There was no endogenous EPO visual in the gel."

Tying this all back to the thread, this data allows us to dial-in rider statements:

I didn't use very much = 100% of all detectable EPO in the cyclist's sample.

From MrRoboto's post, then

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping. When it comes to EPO it's "at the end of my career", when it's now common knowledge that "everybody did it".

Nobody wants to admit they were among the first. And nobody wants to admit that they are only products of doping.

I only used it at the end of my career = every single race I rode since I was 12.

Not admitting / not denying = as often as I could get it.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping. When it comes to EPO it's "at the end of my career", when it's now common knowledge that "everybody did it".

Nobody wants to admit they were among the first. And nobody wants to admit that they are only products of doping.

Thats the thing...."everyone DIDNT do it"......I dont know why folks keep going on saying that, it's factually not true. LeMond/Hampsten/etc etc never doped.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I am not sure where you read me to be saying anything, or why you take the liberty of falsely quoting me.This is an excerpt from a Velonews article, so "I" am not saying anything.

However what Grewal is saying is consistent with what more and more ex-riders are saying today about what happened in that era. And that era started well before the PDM soigneur notebook pages got published.

Well first, You didn't quote any article link in that post, so i didn't know it came from an article.

Second, I simply asked you a question on what you posted, I never 'accused" you of anything...I asked a question, which you still have not answered.

As in relation to Grewal, has ANYONE outside of the PDM guy come forth with ANY info consistant to what Grewal claims? Rumors and innuendo are just that, factual, 100% proof that all of these riders during the timeframe were doping? I find it hard to believe that guys like: Eric Heiden, Phinney, Steda, LeMond, etc etc were all doping at that time.

 

[GP Blanco]

To be effective for what ? They never won a GT but Rooks, Theunisse and Breukink were no winners. I wouldnt make them my captain for the Tour, Giro or Vuelta.

As for the rest, they were one of the best teams ever with some major results. Seems pretty effective to me.

I meant intralipid in 1991.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I was watching that 1988 Tour on holidays with my parents. My father and I were the only ones in that cafeteria who didn't believe the performances of Rooks and Theunisse, everyone else was sheering them on like they were the real deal. Seems we were right, cheating mtf's.

Given the fact they were poor [at least to the 1988 Tour] when they moved to Panasonic it is fair to say the extra blood at Performance Due to Manipulation was the key to their 'succes'.

And yes, new blood, maybe tapped at an altitude trainingscamp, works. Hell, even a Rooks can get to the podium at the Tour with it!

I am dissappointed to read Stevenhaagen also was on the dope.

 

[pmcg76]

I don't think I seen anybody mention the confession by Rudi Kemna. The doctor at his team who administered the EPO was Peter Janssen, was he not the doctor at PDM and Panasonic in the late 80s/early 90s.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/argos-shimano-ds-kemna-confesses-to-epo-use-at-bankgirolterij

 

[D-Queued]

Thats the thing...."everyone DIDNT do it"......I dont know why folks keep going on saying that, it's factually not true. LeMond/Hampsten/etc etc never doped.

Once they left, Lance got rid of the rest or forced compliance while others like Dede convinced the sheep to follow the new way.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Once they left, Lance got rid of the rest or forced compliance while others like Dede convinced the sheep to follow the new way.

Dave.

That I believe. But wouldnt that put it past the 1988 timeframe? LeMond was still recovering from the hunting accident in 88, so he cant be included.

 

[Benotti69]

That I believe. But wouldnt that put it past the 1988 timeframe? LeMond was still recovering from the hunting accident in 88, so he cant be included.

from raceradio twitter

Race Radio ‏@TheRaceRadio

PDM riders doped at 88 Tour … but @GregLemond broke contract when PDM tried to push him to dope....

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I don't think I seen anybody mention the confession by Rudi Kemna. The doctor at his team who administered the EPO was Peter Janssen, was he not the doctor at PDM and Panasonic in the late 80s/early 90s.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/argos-shimano-ds-kemna-confesses-to-epo-use-at-bankgirolterij

Now we need a better profile on the Janssen character. I am sure the right people in Oranjeland will follow this up.

We will probably soon find out if riders on Panasonic doped.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

EDIT: looks like RR beat me to the scoop on LeMond in 1988.

As to Bishop, he's a straight shooter and been outspoken against doping. I'd like to hear his take as well.

 

[86TDFWinner]

from raceradio twitter



http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Ethanks for the link, good read. It was in 89 that Greg broke contract, as I said earlier, he was still out of the 88 tour recovering from the hunting accident.

Besides, this should further cement proof Greg has never doped. He raced clean, and remained steadfast on that, thats why he's such a class act and SHOULD be hailed as a hero imo.

 

[Benotti69]

Ethanks for the link, good read. It was in 89 that Greg broke contract, as I said earlier, he was still out of the 88 tour recovering from the hunting accident.

Besides, this should further cement proof Greg has never doped. He raced clean, and remained steadfast on that, thats why he's such a class act and SHOULD be hailed as a hero imo.

For sure.

10 chara.........

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Ethanks for the link, good read. It was in 89 that Greg broke contract, as I said earlier, he was still out of the 88 tour recovering from the hunting accident.

Besides, this should further cement proof Greg has never doped. He raced clean, and remained steadfast on that, thats why he's such a class act and SHOULD be hailed as a hero imo.

Indeed, that article reads very well for Lemond in terms of being clean.
Now we just need Janssen's information about all other riders he has "helped".

 

[Race Radio]

Ethanks for the link, good read. It was in 89 that Greg broke contract, as I said earlier, he was still out of the 88 tour recovering from the hunting accident.

Besides, this should further cement proof Greg has never doped. He raced clean, and remained steadfast on that, thats why he's such a class act and SHOULD be hailed as a hero imo.

There is more to this story. PDM pushed Greg to dope. When he resisted they started calling him un-professional. Later Greg left a note on the sun shade of Harry's car

"Harry, f*ck you! I'm maybe not a professional in your eyes, but I'll show you. you are f*cking wrong"