1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Ryo Hazuki]

Drop this. Colombians doped in Europe in the 90s, just like everyone else, and this is well documented. Sure, they only got guys in the decent to good range, because physiologically they didn't benefit from blood doping as much as others (with possible exceptions), but they doped.

That said, in the 80s most of them probably didn't (some might have, of course; and someone riding for Kelme is a better candidate than most). The boost you'd get from doping wasn't that big, they came from a different cycling culture and they weren't in the European peloton for that long, so unless doping was particularly prevalent in Colombia itself (which I doubt) they'd have a good chance of being clean.

where is the proof? never found or heard anythign regarding mejia for instance. I'm not saying they didn't dope, but they are the last to be suspected of this. read interviews with people who left europe in early 90s because of all the epo like henry cardenas or all the colombian teams disapearing. why you think that happened?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Why would I need evidence for something I don't say?

I do not know.

Hence I do not claim to know.

Ryo knows, so I wonder what his evidence is. Maybe they have been tested 500 times each?

unless you can proove they doped. they are clean. simple as that. that's how it works in this world. and they didn't exaclty have the uci in their backpocket like lance

 

[pmcg76]

where is the proof? never found or heard anythign regarding mejia for instance. I'm not saying they didn't dope, but they are the last to be suspected of this. read interviews with people who left europe in early 90s because of all the epo like henry cardenas or all the colombian teams disapearing. why you think that happened?

You really think Jose Chepe Gonzalez was clean winning Giro and Tour mountain stages when almost the entire peloton was jacked up on EPO. What about Nelson Rodriguez who was also quite prominent during the same period, 94 Tour stage win even though that was due to blatant wheelsucking.

Yes most of the Colombian's from the 80s did disappear during the 90s and maybe Mejia and Rincon also lost out because they probably didn't get involved in EPO.

However don't underestimate how popular football became at the point in Colombia, they reached the 90 World Cup finals and were considered one of the favourites in 94. Think they also won the Copa America during that period. There is an idea that the footballers replaced the cyclist's as national hero's and became their main representatives on the international scene thus attracting all the sponsors leaving cycling in the doldrums.

Cafe de Colmbia left at the end of 1990 and Postobon left end of 92 when Herrera retired. Do not think they left because of the use of EPO.

 

[Franklin]

unless you can proove they doped. they are clean. simple as that. that's how it works in this world. and they didn't exaclty have the uci in their backpocket like lance

I can shoot someone, but as long as I'm not caught I'm not a murderer. Gotcha.

Also, Botero, was he Spanish after all? did he fake his passport?

It is absolutely inconceivable a colombian dopes... or I blew away your argument completely. It's very confusing.

 

[Franklin]

Japanese athletes. that country is probably the best example in this. I don't use evil or noble. because using doping isn't evil or noble. those are your words

Yusaku Iriki
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Takahiro Shimonaka
Nao Ito

And for a sobering read:

http://www.reco.co.jp/doping/en/adforum02.html

Ryo, start to support your positions with evidence, or do you like it when people show that you have no idea unless people start thinking you actually haven't got a clue about what you are talking about.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I can shoot someone, but as long as I'm not caught I'm not a murderer. Gotcha.

Also, Botero, was he Spanish after all? did he fake his passport?

It is absolutely inconceivable a colombian dopes... or I blew away your argument completely. It's very confusing.

How so if you:

A) never provided proof either way(your "opinion" again, you're assuming they doped, or didn't with no proof, you don't know either way)
B) claim not to know about cycling in the 80's? for someone who claims they know nothing about 80's cycling, you sure seem to have alot of unsubstantiated opinions on things you claim to know nothing about.

Oh, and you contradicted yourself in trying to "clear up" the initial mess you made earlier.

 

[Franklin]

How so if you:

A) never provided proof either way(your "opinion" again, you're assuming they doped, or didn't with no proof, you don't know either way)

I never said I assumed they doped. This is the funniest thing ever....

I say I do not know and yet you say I claimed they doped.

And to clinch this. I gave proof why Ryo's arguments are flawed: Botero is definitely connected with doping, he is Colombian and thus completely blows away "Colombians simply never would dope". Oh and the japanese thing was funny too.

I used facts there, now point out where Ryo gave evidence beyond "they never posted positive". Now I would say if you are going with that one as definite proof you are really amusing

B) claim not to know about cycling in the 80's? for someone who claims they know nothing about 80's cycling, you sure seem to have alot of unsubstantiated opinions on things you claim to know nothing about.

And this is another case of reading comprehension. I certainly don't say I know nothing about the 80's cycling, I'm pretty secure in my knowledge then and there having been an avid amateur cyclist in that era. I read every magazine I could get a hand on and I saw every race I could both in person and on television. And considering that cycling is extremely popular in my country, I saw a lot

And I have no proof either way who did or didn't dope unless there is a confession or irrefutable proof. Contrary to Ryo I don't claim to be all-knowing.

Oh, and you contradicted yourself in trying to "clear up" the initial mess you made earlier.

Considering you attribute two statements I definitely haven't said I am absolutely not worried here.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I can shoot someone, but as long as I'm not caught I'm not a murderer. Gotcha.

Also, Botero, was he Spanish after all? did he fake his passport?

It is absolutely inconceivable a colombian dopes... or I blew away your argument completely. It's very confusing.

where exactly has botero been caught on doping? and he's not from the 90s.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

You really think Jose Chepe Gonzalez was clean winning Giro and Tour mountain stages when almost the entire peloton was jacked up on EPO. What about Nelson Rodriguez who was also quite prominent during the same period, 94 Tour stage win even though that was due to blatant wheelsucking.

Yes most of the Colombian's from the 80s did disappear during the 90s and maybe Mejia and Rincon also lost out because they probably didn't get involved in EPO.

However don't underestimate how popular football became at the point in Colombia, they reached the 90 World Cup finals and were considered one of the favourites in 94. Think they also won the Copa America during that period. There is an idea that the footballers replaced the cyclist's as national hero's and became their main representatives on the international scene thus attracting all the sponsors leaving cycling in the doldrums.

Cafe de Colmbia left at the end of 1990 and Postobon left end of 92 when Herrera retired. Do not think they left because of the use of EPO.

and why do you think herrera retired in 1992 at age 31? the teams left because they stopped producing results and why did they stop producing results? because the europeans were all filled with epo

 

[pmcg76]

and why do you think herrera retired in 1992 at age 31? the teams left because they stopped producing results and why did they stop producing results? because the europeans were all filled with epo

The Europeans were not filled with EPO in 1990 when Cafe de Colombia pulled the plug. Pony Malta pulled the plug in 91, the year Herrera won the Dauphine!! Nearly all the top Colombian riders ended up on Postobon or Kelme who paid then a pittance. Why did no other sponsor's step in to back those squads, could it be they were more interested in the feats of Vaderrama, Higuita by then??

Herrera won a stage in the 92 Giro, top 10 overall so thing's cannot have been that bad. Fact is Herrera had done nothing significant in the Tour since 1988 and the Colombian's had lost their novelty value. There were less and less of them in Europe each year because of no sponsors to back them.

How can you argue Herrera quit because of EPO and then his countryman Mejia goes and finishes 4th in the 93 Tour and Oliverio Rincon won a stage the same year, allegedly doing it clean according to you. Can you see the logic disconnect here.

 

[Franklin]

and why do you think herrera retired in 1992 at age 31? the teams left because they stopped producing results and why did they stop producing results? because the europeans were all filled with epo

Again, this is definitely possible, but there is hardly proof that this is what happened.

- 31 was a perfectly fine age to stop in the eighties.
- Herrera had a better year in 1991 than in 1989. Even 1992 was not significantly worse than 1989.
- Alvaro Mejia had his best year in 1993
- Fabio Parra was very constant in Spain throughout 1990-1991-1992. He dropped out of the TdF, but he also did just that in 1986 and 1989.

The evidence here is not supporting your hypothesis.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Again, this is definitely possible, but there is hardly proof that this is what happened.

- 31 was a perfectly fine age to stop in the eighties.
- Herrera had a better year in 1991 than in 1989. Even 1992 was not significantly worse than 1989.
- Alvaro Mejia had his best year in 1993
- Fabio Parra was very constant in Spain throughout 1990-1991-1992. He dropped out of the TdF, but he also did just that in 1986 and 1989.

The evidence here is not supporting your hypothesis.

except this

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2012/06/victories-disappointments-and-how-epo.html

and I'm sure he's speaking the truth.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I never said I assumed they doped. This is the funniest thing ever....

Umm, actually you did, but thats cool. I still havent seen you post evidence one way or another on whetther they did or didnt dope, as you've alluded to.

I say I do not know and yet you say I claimed they doped.

No no, I asked you to provide proof either way, since you claim they did or didnt dope, but how would you know either if you claim you 'dont know about cycling in the 80s"? I think you need to go back and re-read some of your prior answers, you're failing miserably.


Found it(is this not you CLEARLY SAYING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE 80S CYCLING):

Why do you think I know nothing of cycling in the 80'ies? I simply do not know if Herrera and co used dope. I also don't know if Hinault used dope. I certainly can live with "Herrera and the Colombians were probably clean and certainly not using blood vector doping".

Lets see you try to backtrack out of this one...... You also asked Ryo to "provide proof" that the Columbians were clean, when he asks you to provide proof that they werent(since you question his statement), you do a complete 360 on him and pull the "well, I dont know for sure..blah blah blah" response, yet never provide anything yourself, just your "opinion" that you took offense to people giving in the first place.


Here's your exact quote #107:

Evidence please?

It would be nice if people stuck to verifiable facts instead of just blurting out opinion.

I wish you'd heed your own advice.

And to clinch this. I gave proof why Ryo's arguments are flawed: Botero is definitely connected with doping, he is Colombian and thus completely blows away "Colombians simply never would dope". Oh and the japanese thing was funny too.

How is he "definitely connected to doping" if you haven't provided one shred of evidence saying so? AGAIN......not every "Columbian" is a doper, you're insinuating(AGAIN w/o proof) that they all do, and yet have provided no proof/evidence to back up your claims either way. So, yeah, in relations to your first response above, YOU DO/DID claim they doped.

You're right on one thing: too funny that you can't see all of this.

I have no idea what "japanese thing" you're talking about.

I used facts there, now point out where Ryo gave evidence beyond "they never posted positive".

Sure...right after you give evidence that "every Columbian rider doped", as soon as you post that info......we'll get to the other. 100% proof/evidence that EVERY COUMBIAN RIDER(Including the one you keep mentioning) doped...not hearsay from his dog/goldfish, or neighbor...100% proof, backed by a dr or teammates, and so forth. Either way, whether he doped or not, please provide it here for all of us to read.

I dont give a *** what Fignon says in his book either.......

Now I would say if you are going with that one as definite proof you are really amusing

AGAIN, you've provided no "proof" yourself on anything, just stated your opinion, and so you have no reason to ask anyone else to provide something you yourself cannot provide.

And this is another case of reading comprehension. I certainly don't say I know nothing about the 80's cycling, I'm pretty secure in my knowledge then and there having been an avid amateur cyclist in that era. I read every magazine I could get a hand on and I saw every race I could both in person and on television. And considering that cycling is extremely popular in my country, I saw a lot

Dude, wtf.....YOu CLEARLY said you didnt know anything about 80s cycling........(I even posted what you said above)

And I have no proof either way who did or didn't dope unless there is a confession or irrefutable proof. Contrary to Ryo I don't claim to be all-knowing.

Right, so why are you asking for someone else to provide proof you know doesnt exist either way, or stating your opinions on something you know you have no proof to clarify or back up?

Considering you attribute two statements I definitely haven't said I am absolutely not worried here.

Im glad you feel that way...I have no idea what you're talking about(nor do i think you do)...but ok.

 

[pmcg76]

except this

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2012/06/victories-disappointments-and-how-epo.html

and I'm sure he's speaking the truth.

No that article is full of factual error's. Cafe de Colombia finished in 1990. Was EPO widespread then? No. Just to give another example, Cardenas talks about having a conversation with Konychev at the Giro. The only year they rode together at the Giro was 89!! Whenever that incident happened, it was unlikely to be at the Giro in 89.

Postobon pulled the plug when Herrera did, if Herrera had continued so would Postobon most likely. At the start of 92, Herrera had already decided it was his last season.

 

[hrotha]

where exactly has botero been caught on doping? and he's not from the 90s.

We've already been over this, but you refuse to acknowledge his being cleared in Puerto was bogus. So I won't try again.

So: Peña, Castelblanco.

 

[Franklin]

Im glad you feel that way...I have no idea what you're talking about(nor do i think you do)...but ok.

You know, I'm walking away here

This is becoming surreal.

 

[autologous]

Found it(is this not you CLEARLY SAYING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE 80S CYCLING):

Dude, wtf.....YOu CLEARLY said you didnt know anything about 80s cycling........(I even posted what you said above)

My god, dude, are you illiterate? This is not what he said at all.

"Why do you think I know nothing of cycling in the 80'ies?"

he's asking someone else why they think he knows nothing of 80's cycling. That is, he's contradicting that other person's assertion that Franklin know's nothing of 80's cycling.

Probably a good idea to stay out of forums until you gain some reading comprehension.

Putting it all in caps just highlights your idiocy. Normally I'm sympathetic to impaired folks, but you just come off as a dumb loudmouth ****.

 

[sniper]

You know, I'm walking away here

This is becoming surreal.

it is.
not long ago, i was in a similar discussion with the same poster.
the logic of, and differences between, claim, speculation, proof, evidence, supposition, assumption, etc. are not really dawning on him, even though he's definitely a good lad.

 

[86TDFWinner]

You know, I'm walking away here

Smart move on your part.

 

[86TDFWinner]

My god, dude, are you illiterate? This is not what he said at all.

Nope, I read it as such.

"Why do you think I know nothing of cycling in the 80'ies?"

he's asking someone else why they think he knows nothing of 80's cycling. That is, he's contradicting that other person's assertion that Franklin know's nothing of 80's cycling.

I see.......

Probably a good idea to stay out of forums until you gain some reading comprehension.

Thank you for your insightful post..my rc skills are fine.

Putting it all in caps just highlights your idiocy. Normally I'm sympathetic to impaired folks, but you just come off as a dumb loudmouth ****.

Thank you....but why do you say this? please explain?

 

[86TDFWinner]

it is.
not long ago, i was in a similar discussion with the same poster.
the logic of, and differences between, claim, speculation, proof, evidence, supposition, assumption, etc. are not really dawning on him, even though he's definitely a good lad.

You're a good lad too......I get all of it.....just ask for proof......thats all.

No personal beef with that dude......just called him out on calling out someone else.

 

[FitSsikS]

From CN's front page:

Click > Bishop: I was the clean rider in the 1988 PDM Tour team

 

[sniper]

From CN's front page:

Click > Bishop: I was the clean rider in the 1988 PDM Tour team

to me Bishop sounds fully credible.

“I’m not sure, honestly, I think that’s in the kokers but believe me I did not take anything external and I never took them.

i.e. riders being doped without knowing.

 

[Escarabajo]

We've already been over this, but you refuse to acknowledge his being cleared in Puerto was bogus. So I won't try again.

So: Peña, Castelblanco.

Not only that, but Botero is completely doomed for being only one of the few who was actually seen going to Fuentes apatment by the Madrid Police. In addition to that they found blood bags with his code name from that same day. As a final remark there is a phone call where it was specified that he was going to do a donation. That's pretty damning. Now in the Fuentes trial his name has come up several times. That sucks if your name is Botero.

 

[amp300]

can someone help me with the term "kokers"?

I looked it up several places and most of it refer to a "water boiler" or "tube" to transport water. Anybody have a better description?