1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Oldman]

to me Bishop sounds fully credible.

i.e. riders being doped without knowing.

After he wasn't getting the big rides he discussed this with a mutual friend/teammate. He judged that not only did he have no faith in what "medical" measures they were taking but also had no assurances it would pay off for him in that team, or other team. Practically speaking he was in the same boat that Horner found himself in at F de J his first trip to Europe. Chris changed his mind later after fully exploring the possibilities on the domestic scene; which he dominated.
Andy just retired, I think.

 

[sniper]

can someone help me with the term "kokers"?

I looked it up several places and most of it refer to a "water boiler" or "tube" to transport water. Anybody have a better description?

it's basically a cover term for any kind of tube with a lid, where you can keep stuff in, like a poster, a pen, or medicines
"kokers" is plural btw.
a koker is sometimes vuvuzela shaped, but more often it's straight.
different kinds of kokers :

 

[amp300]

Thanks!
....

 

[86TDFWinner]

to me Bishop sounds fully credible.

i.e. riders being doped without knowing.

He does come off as credible, it's nice to see that he didnt dope, if he's indeed telling the truth.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He was on the notebook of dear old Bertus but perhaps the Fok had to mask Bishop not taking to his master Gisbers. Kinda have to believe him must say.

 

[Escarabajo]

He was on the notebook of dear old Bertus but perhaps the Fok had to mask Bishop not taking to his master Gisbers. Kinda have to believe him must say.

Maybe he was charging $$$ on a per rider basis.

 

[hrotha]

Why would you take Bishop's word at this point? Honest question.

 

[Escarabajo]

Why would you take Bishop's word at this point? Honest question.

I am just waiting for someone to come forward and deny what he said. Once you go public you are on the spot. Maybe he is confident that nobody will say anything because he didn't do anything.

 

[pleyser]

results?

Why trust him?

Here's his Tour results:

1988 Tour de France – 135th
1990 Tour de France – 116th
1991 Tour de France – 126th

I realize results aren't everything, but if doped to get these results, it's either really sad or he had very marginal talent to be at the pro level at all.

 

[ultimobici]

Why trust him?

Here's his Tour results:

1988 Tour de France – 135th
1990 Tour de France – 116th
1991 Tour de France – 126th

I realize results aren't everything, but if doped to get these results, it's either really sad or he had very marginal talent to be at the pro level at all.

To suggest that a rider who finishes the Tour, doped or not, is marginally talented is woefully ignorant.

 

[hrotha]

Why trust him?

Here's his Tour results:

1988 Tour de France – 135th
1990 Tour de France – 116th
1991 Tour de France – 126th

I realize results aren't everything, but if doped to get these results, it's either really sad or he had very marginal talent to be at the pro level at all.

Have you compared those standings with those of his non-GT contender cheating mates?

 

[sniper]

Why would you take Bishop's word at this point? Honest question.

good question. my first reaction was intuitive.
but I think if he's full of **** the chances are that he'll be called out for it in the current climate, with Dutch journos really doing their homework and digging deep wrt PDM/Rabo-doping, and ex-riders blowing whistles as if their lives depend on it.
If his claim of cleanliness remains uncontested in the next couple of days/weeks, the chances are good that he's telling the truth, I guess.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Could be a character assasination of course.

Stevenhagen was also a big surprise on that article.

 

[martinvickers]

good question. my first reaction was intuitive.
but I think if he's full of **** the chances are that he'll be called out for it in the current climate, with Dutch journos really doing their homework and digging deep wrt PDM/Rabo-doping, and ex-riders blowing whistles as if their lives depend on it.
If his claim of cleanliness remains uncontested in the next couple of days/weeks, the chances are good that he's telling the truth, I guess.

I think that's the nub, sniper yes - He's just explicitly labelled all his former teammates dirty - omerta out the window - if he's dirty too, at least some of his now outed teammates will surely make sure we find out.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Dr. Maserati, you must be surprised that they used blood transfusions already in the 80s. AFIR there was a lengthly thread (would be nice if someone finds it, this great thread must be rewritten now) were it was discussed when blood transfusions took place.
"Everybody" (including you) agreed that "regular" blood transfusions didn´t occur before the 90s.
Anyway, i am very surprised. Now the question is how we shall see Lemond. I know he is a hero (even in the clinic), he was mine too when i was watching him, but it´s hard for me to cheat myself into thinking that Lemond beat a blood boosted peloton. I think that´s impossible. As i said, history must be rewritten...
Why was it (the transfusions) never mentioned before? Not in the Fignon book, not in Winnens, nowhere. Reason?

 

[pmcg76]

Dr. Maserati, you must be surprised that they used blood transfusions already in the 80s. AFIR there was a lengthly thread (would be nice if someone finds it, this great thread must be rewritten now) were it was discussed when blood transfusions took place.
"Everybody" (including you) agreed that "regular" blood transfusions didn´t occur before the 90s.
Anyway, i am very surprised. Now the question is how we shall see Lemond. I know he is a hero (even in the clinic), he was mine too when i was watching him, but it´s hard for me to cheat myself into thinking that Lemond beat a blood boosted peloton. I think that´s impossible. As i said, history must be rewritten...
Why was it (the transfusions) never mentioned before? Not in the Fignon book, not in Winnens, nowhere. Reason?

That is a relevant point about the blood bags but like you say, it's strange that nobody else has mentioned it. Maybe it was exclusive to PDM or maybe it was only done once and not properly at that. Clearly not all the riders at PDM were getting bags and it didn't seem to do much for Jorg Muller.

That was 88 and then you go to 89 where LeMond, Fignon, Delgado, Lejarreta, Mottet all finished ahead of most of the PDM guys even though they put 4 in the Top 10. It would be my opinion that if blood bags were used, they were sparse and not used utilised correctly.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don´t get it. It´s a fact in the clinic that blood doping brings the biggest boost. So if Conconi gave it to Alberto Cova, and then it spread from "his" italian riders to PDM, i must assume everybody used them by 1988. And they seem to have worked well at PDM (or Castorama, LaVieClair, 7-Eleven, you name it), otherwise we´d have only Conconi riders in GT Top-10s of the late 80s.

Up to today i believed that blood transfusions weren´t used regulary before the 90s. Now i think otherwise. It basically comes down to this: Flush the 80s down the toilet as we already did with the 90s and 00s.

I wish i could believe at least Winnen, that he did a cleanish Top-3. It´s possible, because after 1983 he never got back to the top. Maybe he was a victim of blood doping.

 

[D-Queued]

I don´t get it. It´s a fact in the clinic that blood doping brings the biggest boost. So if Conconi gave it to Alberto Cova, and then it spread from "his" italian riders to PDM, i must assume everybody used them by 1988. And they seem to have worked well at PDM (or Castorama, LaVieClair, 7-Eleven, you name it), otherwise we´d have only Conconi riders in GT Top-10s of the late 80s.

Up to today i believed that blood transfusions weren´t used regulary before the 90s. Now i think otherwise. It basically comes down to this: Flush the 80s down the toilet as we already did with the 90s and 00s.

I wish i could believe at least Winnen, that he did a cleanish Top-3. It´s possible, because after 1983 he never got back to the top. Maybe he was a victim of blood doping.

Bad assumption. Or, are you trying to troll?

Blood doping pre-dated the 1980s.

This has been discussed ad-nauseum elsewhere.

For a single event, like the 1984 Olympics, the US Cycling team could and did blood dope.

Known fact.

For a successful blood doping program you need:

1. A perfect donor match (best = yourself)
2. A viable recovery strategy if self-extracting
3. Viable storage
4. Viable logistics
5. Ability to intervene quickly if things go south
6. Facilitating agents

#2 was a huge challenge for blood doping beyond single events without EPO.

#3 Really good storage was a challenge, and remains so. This is why Fuentes used the Spanish Medical System

#4 Viable logistics (see "Motoman")

#5 Intervention (need good physician)

#6 See "Actovegin"

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dr. Maserati, you must be surprised that they used blood transfusions already in the 80s. AFIR there was a lengthly thread (would be nice if someone finds it, this great thread must be rewritten now) were it was discussed when blood transfusions took place.
"Everybody" (including you) agreed that "regular" blood transfusions didn´t occur before the 90s.

Careful - I never dismissed that it hadn't taken place.
But there was never any evidence (or even a good rumour) until now.

Anyway, i am very surprised. Now the question is how we shall see Lemond. I know he is a hero (even in the clinic), he was mine too when i was watching him, but it´s hard for me to cheat myself into thinking that Lemond beat a blood boosted peloton. I think that´s impossible. As i said, history must be rewritten...

So, you have a story of some riders on a team doing blood transfusions, and now its the entire peloton was blood boosted?

Why was it (the transfusions) never mentioned before? Not in the Fignon book, not in Winnens, nowhere. Reason?

Because they were not blood boosting? Because they didn't know? Because it wasn't widespread?

 

[Oldman]

Why trust him?

Here's his Tour results:

1988 Tour de France – 135th
1990 Tour de France – 116th
1991 Tour de France – 126th

I realize results aren't everything, but if doped to get these results, it's either really sad or he had very marginal talent to be at the pro level at all.

Any American that had the talent to get to a European had real skills; particularly if they didn't dope. The game was to get them to come up to level and it was and offer made to several friends that made it to that level later. I've never heard anyone dispute that it was any cleaner in the late 80's. Riding with Bishop on training routes it was clear he was seriously strong and resilient.

 

[Franklin]

Careful - I never dismissed that it hadn't taken place.
But there was never any evidence (or even a good rumour) until now.

Actually, Blood doping was discussed in the 80's especially around the winter Olympics with the Langlaufers as main subject.

Absolutely no fact nor evidence: I always thought (Dutch) Speedskating was involved in Blood doping, but that was a hunch, no more. If anything speedskating has an incredible Omerta. Pro cyclists can learn something there

So, you have a story of some riders on a team doing blood transfusions, and now its the entire peloton was blood boosted?

Fair is fair.

1. The peloton certainly had no issue with dope. Euro cycling was rife with dope.
2. The advantages of blood doping were general knowledge.

If we replace #2 with Epo nobody has an issue if I say 1991-2005 almost everyone was using Epo. But as soon as someone infers something similarly it's somehow wild speculation?

For the record; I think the logistics make blood doping less widespread as Epo.... but I'm 100% convinced Carrera and Reynolds were involved early. And well... I don't know why we shouldn't be suspicious of Renault.

The problem is that as soon as you name a team with GL it's all of a sudden "Close the hatches, man the gatlin guns! The are trying to besmirch our hero!".

Remember that an ex-rider on ADR here said Greg was never seen with Dope. But that the team itself was dope fuelled. When others had said this earlier on they had been trampled by the stalwarts here.

Because they were not blood boosting? Because they didn't know? Because it wasn't widespread?

I refuse this explanation. Blood doping wasn't new and it was absolutely practiced by cycling (we know the cases). Also, the absolute top was absolutely monetized.

Now why wouldn't Fignon and co not mention it? Why would Rooks not mention it?

Because it takes away from their hallowed position! It's one thing to state the known fact (namely that cyclists used silly quack like doping). It's something completely different if they have to acknowledge that they dabbled in a (less efficient!) form of blood manipulation, something they say took away their place at the spotlight.

And before I get the usual treatment; we have no idea if Greg ever used doping.

 

[Franklin]

Why would you take Bishop's word at this point? Honest question.

On the one hand we have a witness who has nothing to gain to add a nobody to an old list (the entry itself does not look forged to my untrained eye^^).

On the other hand we have a pro denying and saying he was clean, flying in the face of evidence.

Clearly, everyone here should doubt Bishop. That people fall for these things is one of the crazier things of the clinic. Public statements and likability have nothing to do with likelihood of doping. That people still use these reasons is amazing when we see that it is blown away by the evidence the last 50 years of cycling have given us.

 

[The Sheep]

Didn't Beckenbauer admit to blood doping? he played before the 80's

 

[Daniel Benson]

more to come on this one...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I don´t get it. It´s a fact in the clinic that blood doping brings the biggest boost.

I would say EPO is much more effective.

So if Conconi gave it to Alberto Cova, and then it spread from "his" italian riders to PDM, i must assume everybody used them by 1988. And they seem to have worked well at PDM (or Castorama, LaVieClair, 7-Eleven, you name it), otherwise we´d have only Conconi riders in GT Top-10s of the late 80s.

Old fashion blood transfusions might be something different to the blood transfusions with enriched EPO blood we know happened in the 2000's?
When you go on altitude training, tap some blood - with higher crit due to the altitude - and reinfuse it at the Tour is somehow different.

Up to today i believed that blood transfusions weren´t used regulary before the 90s. Now i think otherwise. It basically comes down to this: Flush the 80s down the toilet as we already did with the 90s and 00s.

You are allowed to.

For the record]No...

The relationship between Boifava and Conconi has been special.
Not to mention the Reynolds of course.

more to come on this one...

What a surprise.