1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Dr. Maserati]

Actually, Blood doping was discussed in the 80's especially around the winter Olympics with the Langlaufers as main subject.

Absolutely no fact nor evidence: I always thought (Dutch) Speedskating was involved in Blood doping, but that was a hunch, no more. If anything speedskating has an incredible Omerta. Pro cyclists can learn something there

Ugh - right, but I was responding to foxybrowns point which was specific to road cycling.

Quite frankly, they brought up a discussion we had from around 2 years ago that covered a fair bit of ground. I even linked documents to blood doping from before the 80s. It was a great discussion and we covered a lot.

Fair is fair.

1. The peloton certainly had no issue with dope. Euro cycling was rife with dope.
2. The advantages of blood doping were general knowledge.

If we replace #2 with Epo nobody has an issue if I say 1991-2005 almost everyone was using Epo. But as soon as someone infers something similarly it's somehow wild speculation?

For the record; I think the logistics make blood doping less widespread as Epo.... but I'm 100% convinced Carrera and Reynolds were involved early. And well... I don't know why we shouldn't be suspicious of Renault.

The problem is that as soon as you name a team with GL it's all of a sudden "Close the hatches, man the gatlin guns! The are trying to besmirch our hero!".

Remember that an ex-rider on ADR here said Greg was never seen with Dope. But that the team itself was dope fuelled. When others had said this earlier on they had been trampled by the stalwarts here.



I refuse this explanation. Blood doping wasn't new and it was absolutely practiced by cycling (we know the cases). Also, the absolute top was absolutely monetized.

Now why wouldn't Fignon and co not mention it? Why would Rooks not mention it?

Because it takes away from their hallowed position! It's one thing to state the known fact (namely that cyclists used silly quack like doping). It's something completely different if they have to acknowledge that they dabbled in a (less efficient!) form of blood manipulation, something they say took away their place at the spotlight.

I do not know how you got any of the above out of my recent posts.
Because for the most part I agree with you. You are effectively arguing with yourself.

If you have a question just ask - as I have made my positions pretty clear in other threads, it has remained consistent.

And before I get the usual treatment; we have no idea if Greg ever used doping.

See, thats just a red herring or strawman. He should not have even been brought up.
I don't care about LeMond that much. If it was proved that LeMond was doing transfusions (as an example) I am not going to go around and start suggesting that the whole peloton of the 80's must have been doing it too.
I judge individual things on merit

 

[Frosty]

When did Willy Voets say that blood doping started?

 

[Escarabajo]

Didn't Beckenbauer admit to blood doping? he played before the 80's

So did Moser for the hour record, but that is not proof that it was used during the Tour de France.

 

[Freddythefrog]

why don't you show evidence of colombians doping in the 80s? not one has ever been caught in europe. it would simply be too much of a disaster if they would. colombian riders above all represent their country, which is an honor hard to understand.

Wiki
María Luisa Calle Williams is a Colombian professional racing cyclist.

In the 2004 Summer Olympics, she won a bronze medal in the cycling women's points race, the first Colombian to win a medal in cycling. She was forced to return the medal after positive test result for the banned stimulant heptaminol. The medal was returned, however, after the test result was proven incorrect.
There you go ! It is proved - No Columbians dope. The panel that heard the appeal, and chose to reject the findings, without any further scientific evidence, was entirely Columbian in construction, including representatives of their Cycling & Olympic Federations. They were certainly about to give their first ever Cycling Olympic medal back weren't they?

Ryo you are murdered by your own hand. On anything to do with a topic regarding women's cycling your writings present you as a misogynistic bigot with ideas that left most civilisations over 200 years ago. Here, when discussing doping, you come up with a fantasy that the World's No 1 nation state in the export of illegal narcotics, somehow generates a collection of individuals immune to practices which so obviously know no national boundary, because they ride in their national jersey !

Ryo - that does not make any sense whatsoever.

 

[D-Queued]

The Colombian Federation excels at spotting and resolving errors for its athletes.

Just ask Botero.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

And before I get the usual treatment; we have no idea if Greg ever used doping.

Ah yeah, we actually DO. It's been talked about ad nauseum here about this particular subject. Go back and re-read threads, he didn't do it. By all means though, if you have some sort of insider info on him doping that the rest of us here don't, please post it for all to see. That way we can make our own conclusions. Must be FACT, (not something you heard from someone, or that your dog told you) something that can be verified as factual.


Also, same thing above applies on those " transfusions" we're all supposed to know about(that Greg took). What dates, times, who administered them, etc.


Thank you.

 

[Oldman]

On the one hand we have a witness who has nothing to gain to add a nobody to an old list (the entry itself does not look forged to my untrained eye^^).

On the other hand we have a pro denying and saying he was clean, flying in the face of evidence.

Clearly, everyone here should doubt Bishop. That people fall for these things is one of the crazier things of the clinic. Public statements and likability have nothing to do with likelihood of doping. That people still use these reasons is amazing when we see that it is blown away by the evidence the last 50 years of cycling have given us.

You're mixing your blanket assumptions with my observations. My observations were isolated but true. He was strong before PDM, did poorly in the Tour and quit the Euro scene. He was at the same domestic level according to those that rode regularly with him. That means: I know very little and Bishop did not apparently share the PDM "success" while with them and left.
If that's the basis for doubt and indictment you can build a case on facts. I don't believe he was among those that had to retire that Tour because of the "flu". So far the leap to judgement on either count isn't from die hards in the clinic; who usually get pilloried for not presenting facts.
He was likeable.
As for Lemond; he crushed everyone in the US and a fair amount in Europe pretty much solo and at almost a junior age. The pedigree was there and when he won the '89 Tour it was with marginal support. I seriously doubt he had the organization resources to pull of any type of effective blood doping scheme. Again; produce some evidence.

 

[86TDFWinner]

As for Lemond; he crushed everyone in the US and a fair amount in Europe pretty much solo and at almost a junior age. The pedigree was there and when he won the '89 Tour it was with marginal support. I seriously doubt he had the organization resources to pull of any type of effective blood doping scheme. Again; produce some evidence.

Spot on, I agree and what you said, but it won't happen(producing evidence-as there isn't any).

 

[DirtyWorks]

As for Lemond; he crushed everyone in the US and a fair amount in Europe pretty much solo and at almost a junior age. The pedigree was there and when he won the '89 Tour it was with marginal support.

Crushed really doesn't capture it though. Physically destroyed fields might be closer. Winning a Tour with practically no support also does not get anywhere near enough recognition either.

What really annoys me is when the allegations pop up and the poster pretends there was an EPO cycle and then pretends riders didn't compete a **full** calendar.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It's interesting that PDM were one of, if not the first, to have a luxury bus, with refrigeration. Of course, they may just have enjoyed chilled drinks, but it would give more options for transportation.

It was.

http://weblogs.nos.nl/radio1journaal/2013/01/23/het-notitieblokje-en-het-flikken/

We moeten geflikt zijn

= we must have been f2cked by someone!

Maybe Theunisse had a wrong blood bag.

 

[andy1234]

It was.

http://weblogs.nos.nl/radio1journaal/2013/01/23/het-notitieblokje-en-het-flikken/



= we must have been f2cked by someone!

Maybe Theunisse had a wrong blood bag.

An echo positive?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don´t get it. It´s a fact in the clinic that blood doping brings the biggest boost.

Just to resolve this one last time for the casual reader. Don't mix doping generations up.

Pre-EPO, some blood doping but difficult. Cocktails of stimulants, pain killers and steroids for dopers depending on the generation and "prepatore."
EPO -no testing: Revolutionary compared to the usual cocktails. Elite amateur riders killed by blood being too thick. Conconi takes IOC money to learn how to use EPO on Italian cycling pros and claims he is researching an EPO test.
UCI sets artificial hematocrit limit. Suddenly all riders grazing 50%(??) hematorcit level. Still no EPO test. But because there's a limit, EPO use is constrained.
EPO -working test. EPO use tapers switch to next-gen EPO CERA and timing EPO use to non-positive figured out. CERA test finally comes.
Bio-passport finally forced onto UCI by IOC. Oxygen vector doping use tapers along with an rhEPO test implemented and the return of autologus method as better infrastructure is available for blood bag use.

If I've summarized something wrong, don't hesitate to point it out.

 

[andy1234]

Just to resolve this one last time for the casual reader. Don't mix doping generations up.

Pre-EPO, some blood doping but difficult. Cocktails of stimulants, pain killers and steroids for dopers depending on the generation and "prepatore."
EPO -no testing: Revolutionary compared to the usual cocktails. Elite amateur riders killed by blood being too thick. Conconi takes IOC money to learn how to use EPO on Italian cycling pros and claims he is researching an EPO test.
UCI sets artificial hematocrit limit. Suddenly all riders grazing 50%(??) hematorcit level. Still no EPO test. But because there's a limit, EPO use is constrained.
EPO -working test. EPO use tapers switch to next-gen EPO CERA and timing EPO use to non-positive figured out. CERA test finally comes.
Bio-passport finally forced onto UCI by IOC. Oxygen vector doping use tapers along with an rhEPO test implemented and the return of autologus method as better infrastructure is available for blood bag use.

If I've summarized something wrong, don't hesitate to point it out.

I'm not sure anyone can argue with this. It's the period where the pills and speed generation, became the blood and EPO generation, and who benefitted, that is open for debate.
So there is some crossover of the doping generations, based on previously unknown information, even if the methods were not refined.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

An echo positive?

Dunno, I do know what he did in 1989, towards l'Alpe 'Hollandaise', that was even more ridiculous. A Tyler/Floyd/Virenque/Zulle avant la lettre.

Ending up fourth in Paris. Dopey dope.

Still, did not help in his TT'ing. He was sh!t at it.

Donks couldnt be turned into absolute racehorses back then it looks like. Hell, even Perico didnt make it on there. One year later it was something completely different.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Of course transfusions were used in the late 80's. Moser and the US track team blood doped successfully in 1984. It seems unlikely that others did not follow in their footsteps. Moser was blood doped by Ferrari and Conconi, who also blood doped italian XC skiers for the Worlds/Olympics in the mid-late 1980's. These guys worked with cyclists beyond 1984. What are the odds that none of their clients blood doped? Or that "blood bag" means saline?

It would be easy to transfuse before a GT, but I don't know how rapidly Hb-mass declines without EPO. A refill during the race would be trickier, but doable if you can transport refrigerated blood, as PDM apparently could. The problem is, you'd have to withdraw closer to the race and you'd need to how much blood you can replace before the start. Perhaps difficult without total Hb mass testing (was it available in the 80's?).

This study suggests PDM could have withdrawn a unit 3 weeks before the Tour and re-infused 10 days into the race, as suggested by that notebook.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Of course transfusions were used in the late 80's. Moser and the US track team blood doped successfully in 1984. It seems unlikely that others did not follow in their footsteps. Moser was blood doped by Ferrari and Conconi, who also blood doped italian XC skiers for the Worlds/Olympics in the mid-late 1980's. These guys worked with cyclists beyond 1984. What are the odds that none of their clients blood doped? Or that "blood bag" means saline?

Your facts are correct but you over reach on the conclusions.
The cycling examples you give are for track, a lot easier to do than for road racers. And Conconi et al were being funded by the Italian Olympic Com so as soon they were more interested in Olympic athletes. It wasn't until later that they fully branched out.

It would be easy to transfuse before a GT, but I don't know how rapidly Hb-mass declines without EPO. A refill during the race would be trickier, but doable if you can transport refrigerated blood, as PDM apparently could. The problem is, you'd have to withdraw closer to the race and you'd need to how much blood you can replace before the start. Perhaps difficult without total Hb mass testing (was it available in the 80's?).

This study suggests PDM could have withdrawn a unit 3 weeks before the Tour and re-infused 10 days into the race, as suggested by that notebook.

This was the difficulty back then, having a limited period before the rbc's deteriorate. Of course there was the option of someone else's blood, but that was riskier.

 

[Race Radio]

Of course transfusions were used in the late 80's. Moser and the US track team blood doped successfully in 1984. It seems unlikely that others did not follow in their footsteps. Moser was blood doped by Ferrari and Conconi, who also blood doped italian XC skiers for the Worlds/Olympics in the mid-late 1980's. These guys worked with cyclists beyond 1984. What are the odds that none of their clients blood doped? Or that "blood bag" means saline?

It would be easy to transfuse before a GT, but I don't know how rapidly Hb-mass declines without EPO. A refill during the race would be trickier, but doable if you can transport refrigerated blood, as PDM apparently could. The problem is, you'd have to withdraw closer to the race and you'd need to how much blood you can replace before the start. Perhaps difficult without total Hb mass testing (was it available in the 80's?).

This study suggests PDM could have withdrawn a unit 3 weeks before the Tour and re-infused 10 days into the race, as suggested by that notebook.

That would have been a stretch, That study is from 2011 not 1988. At the time the best blood additives would give the blood a shelf life of 42 days. Long term storage also results in a significant decrease in the RBC's. They would be ****ing dead RBC for a few days and it would have limited benefit.

 

[GJB123]

Of course transfusions were used in the late 80's. Moser and the US track team blood doped successfully in 1984. It seems unlikely that others did not follow in their footsteps. Moser was blood doped by Ferrari and Conconi, who also blood doped italian XC skiers for the Worlds/Olympics in the mid-late 1980's. These guys worked with cyclists beyond 1984. What are the odds that none of their clients blood doped? Or that "blood bag" means saline?

It would be easy to transfuse before a GT, but I don't know how rapidly Hb-mass declines without EPO. A refill during the race would be trickier, but doable if you can transport refrigerated blood, as PDM apparently could. The problem is, you'd have to withdraw closer to the race and you'd need to how much blood you can replace before the start. Perhaps difficult without total Hb mass testing (was it available in the 80's?).

This study suggests PDM could have withdrawn a unit 3 weeks before the Tour and re-infused 10 days into the race, as suggested by that notebook.

Apparent how?

I think you will find that the commonly held believe here is that blood doping took place in the 80's for one day events but that logistics weren't up to scratch for doing it successfully inside a 3 week GT.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This study suggests PDM could have withdrawn a unit 3 weeks before the Tour and re-infused 10 days into the race, as suggested by that notebook.

Well, given the fact the were absolutely sh!t in the Tour de Suisse 1988
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/ritfiche.php?ritid=15151&wedstrijdvoorloopid=2730#first
and given the fact Steve Bauer was in the form of his life it is very well possible.

Wonder what happened to the winner, Helmut Wechselberger.

Back to PDM.
This is what is now called a not normal year:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/team.php?id=1311-PDM-Ultima-Concorde-1988&season=1988&c=2

See for the individual results yourself.

 

[compete_clean]

For the 1984 Olympics, he lost a sprint. There is no arguing he lost to a cheater. But, the loss wasn't to someone who simply rode away from him thanks to doping.

Grewal never would have made it to the finish with Bauer without doping.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

The blood would have been re-infused 31 days post withdrawal. I believe that's less than 42 days, is it not? From my understanding, blood dopers in the 80's usually re-infused ~4 weeks after withdrawal and the effects were not insignificant.

It would not be more difficult to blood dope a road cyclist before the start of a race than to blood dope a track cyclist, distance runner or XC skier prior to the start of a race. It would be more difficult to blood dope someone during a stage race, but it was far from an insurmountable obstacle if you had the resources.

It's a fact that Conconi and Ferrari worked with road cyclists at the time, not just olympic athletes, and I doubt they were only used for training plans.

Some of Indurains pre-91 results were probably blood doped, having worked with Conconi since -87.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Apparent how?

I think you will find that the commonly held believe here is that blodd doping took place in the 80's for one day events but that logistics weren't up to scratch for doing it successfully inside a 3 week GT.

They could have transported the blood on the team bus.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The blood would have been re-infused 31 days post withdrawal. I believe that's less than 42 days, is it not? From my understanding, blood dopers in the 80's usually re-infused ~4 weeks after withdrawal and the effects were not insignificant.

It would not be more difficult to blood dope a road cyclist before the start of a race than to blood dope a track cyclist, distance runner or XC skier prior to the start of a race. It would be more difficult to blood dope someone during a stage race, but it was far from an insurmountable obstacle if you had the resources.

Re-infusing is not the point.
The point is in withdrawing the blood and the resultant dip in performance.

It's a fact that Conconi and Ferrari worked with road cyclists at the time, not just olympic athletes, and I doubt they were only used for training plans.

Some of Indurains pre-91 results were probably blood doped, having worked with Conconi since -87.

Hold on - "at the time" is rather vague.
Which cyclists were Conconi & Ferrari working with in 88?
After the winter Olympics seems to be when they went in to 'private practice' which is also when EPO appears to have taken over from transfusions.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Conconi worked with Indurain, at least, Ferrari worked with Moser/Rominger/Chateau D'Ax. Wouldnt surprise me if the capo di capi had anything to do with Roche in 1987.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

The point is in withdrawing the blood and the resultant dip in performance.

It's not implausible that some riders may have prioritized one particular race over others.