2008 Tour

[McLovin]

I think the 2008 Tour was the cleanest in the recent history. sastre, evans, kirchen...riders who have put their name on that tour, i kind of trust them. I can say this also in the light of riders who were cheating and get caught, ricco, piepoli, kohl. They won stages and get caught, kohl was third ( he was nobody before, excepting one good dauphine libere), so you can afirm even stronger that the others were mostly clean. Look at 09 Tour...infected! armstrong, that guy who has 60 kilos but wins TT, that guy who only pays advices to fuentes and his brother...dear God....the elite from 08 ...they all finish more than 20 minutes to this 'new' guys. it's sad that ASO accepts this situation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think the 2008 Tour was the cleanest in the recent history. sastre, evans, kirchen...riders who have put their name on that tour, i kind of trust them. I can say this also in the light of riders who were cheating and get caught, ricco, piepoli, kohl. They won stages and get caught, kohl was third ( he was nobody before, excepting one good dauphine libere), so you can afirm even stronger that the others were mostly clean. Look at 09 Tour...infected! armstrong, that guy who has 60 kilos but wins TT, that guy who only pays advices to fuentes and his brother...dear God....the elite from 08 ...they all finish more than 20 minutes to this 'new' guys. it's sad that ASO accepts this situation.

Apologies McLovin - but there is a part of the forum called the Clinic, which is dedicated to all discussions on doping.

So, I will refrain from anymore discussion on the topic until it is moved by the Mods to the Clinic.

 

[BigBoat]

I think the 2008 Tour was the cleanest in the recent history. sastre, evans, kirchen...riders who have put their name on that tour, i kind of trust them. I can say this also in the light of riders who were cheating and get caught, ricco, piepoli, kohl. They won stages and get caught, kohl was third ( he was nobody before, excepting one good dauphine libere), so you can afirm even stronger that the others were mostly clean. Look at 09 Tour...infected! armstrong, that guy who has 60 kilos but wins TT, that guy who only pays advices to fuentes and his brother...dear God....the elite from 08 ...they all finish more than 20 minutes to this 'new' guys. it's sad that ASO accepts this situation.

It was "cleanish" however I see that Sastre (hate to say it for the 5,000th time) doped for the final TT and Evans didnt get a "refill." I used to be a big fan of Evans and routed for him in all his Tours after Landis was taken down. Then I started hearing nasty things about Evan's character a few months ago and I decided he's not the nicest guy after all and not worth routing for.

The riders in that Tour were not totally clean but it was the first year they had this biological passport and some were too scared to dope I think. Granted, HGH or IGF-1 along with other recovery helpers were probably wide spread still. With so much money on the line they of course will max out their ability even if its just a slight gain.

Looking at the watts per kilo of the rides you can tell Sastre didnt have better than 6.0 w/kg at FTP..because his Alp D'huez time simply was slower than what Landis, etc did it in years previous. I think Sastre blood doped for the Tour along with Kohl, Ricco, Piepoli, and some others. Maybe 10-15 guys brought it past 50%. But I dont think anybody had over 6 watts per kilo...and that has more to do with lack of natural talent combined with not being as doped because they dont have the big money and medical setups guys like Basso, COntradoper, Lance have/had. Evans probably has had upper 5s...And again if that peanuts to you get on the bike and try to hold 400 watts for an hour if you weight 150-152 pounds. 60 minutes nonstop at 400...I cant even hold that power for 4 minutes and I'm a cat 1.

If Lance or Contradoper were clean and they raced a doped Evans they'd be destroyed.

 

[tubularglue]

these gentleman are completely professional in their "preparation", and i see the 2008 Tour as no different than previous years, or those of the future.

The German described the blood doping process as a constant oil change. Jaksche said the process was punishing on his body, forcing him to minimize its use to "two classics, Paris-Nice and the Tour."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/jorg_jaksche_jul07

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/07/01/2009-07-01_dekker.html

In recent years, several teams have adopted policies of strict internal testing programs and increased transparency in order to assure sponsors that their brands won't be tarnished by the seemingly endless scandals enveloping the sport.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/news/ballan-testifies-to-being-offered-epo and the wheel goes round and round

"I was ringing Tosatto's doorbell when Bonin came up and asked if I wanted CERA. I turned it down," said Ballan.

 

[hmronnow]

And again if that peanuts to you get on the bike and try to hold 400 watts for an hour if you weight 150-152 pounds. 60 minutes nonstop at 400...I cant even hold that power for 4 minutes and I'm a cat 1.

I disagree with your numbers. I am a recreational rider, riding only 3x1h30 a week (au bloc). I weigh 64kg = 141 pounds. Just checked in my power-database, and I can hold 400W just over 4 minutes. (powertap+wko)

In fact, according to cyclingpeak's power-profiler a cat 1 rider should have 5.5-6.4 W/kg as 5 minute power. So I'm surprised you can be a cat 1 rider if you can't do 400W for 4 minutes.

Concerning whether a professional weighing 151lbs = 68.5kg can hold 400W for 60 minutes, that is 5.8W/kg. This is the range between 'domestic pro' and 'international pro' in above quoted power profiler. I have 290W FTP for <5h training a week. It seems very reasonable to me that the world's best can do 38% better than me.

I'm not saying there is no doping. I'm just saying that I disagree with your numbers. I think 400W FTP is perfectly achievable clean. And I think a successful cat 1 rider must be able to do 400W for more than 4 minutes. (except if maybe racing is easier in US)

 

[Bumeington]

It was "cleanish" however I see that Sastre (hate to say it for the 5,000th time) doped for the final TT and Evans didnt get a "refill." I used to be a big fan of Evans and routed for him in all his Tours after Landis was taken down. Then I started hearing nasty things about Evan's character a few months ago and I decided he's not the nicest guy after all and not worth routing for.

The riders in that Tour were not totally clean but it was the first year they had this biological passport and some were too scared to dope I think. Granted, HGH or IGF-1 along with other recovery helpers were probably wide spread still. With so much money on the line they of course will max out their ability even if its just a slight gain.

Looking at the watts per kilo of the rides you can tell Sastre didnt have better than 6.0 w/kg at FTP..because his Alp D'huez time simply was slower than what Landis, etc did it in years previous. I think Sastre blood doped for the Tour along with Kohl, Ricco, Piepoli, and some others. Maybe 10-15 guys brought it past 50%. But I dont think anybody had over 6 watts per kilo...and that has more to do with lack of natural talent combined with not being as doped because they dont have the big money and medical setups guys like Basso, COntradoper, Lance have/had. Evans probably has had upper 5s...And again if that peanuts to you get on the bike and try to hold 400 watts for an hour if you weight 150-152 pounds. 60 minutes nonstop at 400...I cant even hold that power for 4 minutes and I'm a cat 1.

If Lance or Contradoper were clean and they raced a doped Evans they'd be destroyed.

I don't understand your theory on Evans missing a transfusion prior to the final TT in 2008. Basically, blood doping at the end of a 3 week tour gives huge gains, so if Sastre was doped up for the TT and Evans wasn't, surely Sastre should ride faster than Evans, not lose to him by 29 seconds, rather than expected maybe 90 seconds. Would appreciate an opinion on this...

 

[BigBoat]

I disagree with your numbers. I am a recreational rider, riding only 3x1h30 a week (au bloc). I weigh 64kg = 141 pounds. Just checked in my power-database, and I can hold 400W just over 4 minutes. (powertap+wko)

In fact, according to cyclingpeak's power-profiler a cat 1 rider should have 5.5-6.4 W/kg as 5 minute power. So I'm surprised you can be a cat 1 rider if you can't do 400W for 4 minutes.

Concerning whether a professional weighing 151lbs = 68.5kg can hold 400W for 60 minutes, that is 5.8W/kg. This is the range between 'domestic pro' and 'international pro' in above quoted power profiler. I have 290W FTP for <5h training a week. It seems very reasonable to me that the world's best can do 38% better than me.

I'm not saying there is no doping. I'm just saying that I disagree with your numbers. I think 400W FTP is perfectly achievable clean. And I think a successful cat 1 rider must be able to do 400W for more than 4 minutes. (except if maybe racing is easier in US)

I weigh about 140-145 too...In good shape not now...YES, it is humanly possible for somebody to get close to 5.8 watts per kilo at FTP clean...And I think Greg Lemond and maybe a couple other guys got to this. But its ultra freakish.

5.8-5.9 is a huge amount of power to hold over 60 mins. A nonstop 5 minute TT is pretty close to true V02 max power. I can only hold about 370 watts right now, At my best I could probably still get to 400-415W. If you can do over 400W for 4 minutes, your better than I am right now.. If you can do 6.3 watts per kilo your damn good on 5 hours of riding a week. Although I havnt done a race recently I bet I'd be competitive enough in a flattish crit, top 25 or so for sure.

.... somebody with say 10-12% more power than you in a hilly road race will rip you to shreds...Racing somebody with 38% more FTP than you is a joke.

 

[BigBoat]

I don't understand your theory on Evans missing a transfusion prior to the final TT in 2008. Basically, blood doping at the end of a 3 week tour gives huge gains, so if Sastre was doped up for the TT and Evans wasn't, surely Sastre should ride faster than Evans, not lose to him by 29 seconds, rather than expected maybe 90 seconds. Would appreciate an opinion on this...

Sastre "discovered his time trialing legs" due to the "magic" of the golden fleece....Ya

I think Evans doped earlier on in the Tour but he didnt get one prior to the final TT and Carlos DID, and thats why Evans, who is a more powerful time trial rider lost the Tour. Evans is a far better time trialist than Sastre. 400 cc of packed red cells is what won Sastre that Tour...If Evans had gotten a 2-3 point boost in crit he'd have been on the top step of the podium. Maybe Evans' "team" thought riding the final TT with a 52% crit would be good enough, or maybe he didnt have any blood bags left... Or they could have messed up and lost his refill somehow.

Your right 90 secs would be the realistic gap, but you must consider Evans is just better than Sastre at TTs.

 

[Ripper]

...

OK, what are these rumors you heard of Evans' character? I mean, just saying you heard something and then commenting on missing a fill, etc, is just a bit too much fun backroom theorizing and rhetoric. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you have info, spout it out. Otherwise this looks like a lot of fantasy.

 

[Kerbdog]

OK, what are these rumors you heard of Evans' character? I mean, just saying you heard something and then commenting on missing a fill, etc, is just a bit too much fun backroom theorizing and rhetoric. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you have info, spout it out. Otherwise this looks like a lot of fantasy. [/QUOTE

+1. Coming on here & conjuring up ideas of blood doping & timeframes to the 2 riders in question is pure speculation & from what i can make out what he wants to believe & is going to do the best to make it seem real. At its base form stating something like that is wrong, lacks real evidence, unjust & extremely unfair to Evans & Sastre. You either have evidence or you dont. I wouldnt worry about flaming as there are enough monkeys licking this chaps **** on here already.
We all know what goes on in the peloton past, present & probably future but making up stories to suit yourself & that some will be gullible to digest as fact & start spreading is inexcusable. I try & deal with fact & until then i shut my mouth. Those accusations are slanderous & unnecessary.

 

[karlboss]

We know he doesn't have proof. You are reading an opinion, maybe read as "I think evans didn't get a refill" and then its a little easier to take. Bigboats post always relate performance to drugs, it's born of a belief that everyone dopes and noone has improved since lemond.

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe Big Boat is into something, but he does not know how to say it or prove it. I always thought that Sastre's performance in that last time trial was "Fishy". And remember that this is coming from a guy that is a Sastre fan. Let's evaluate what we have in hand (which is not blood profiles).

Last year the Science of the Sport made an interesting comment about Sastre on his last TT. This is what I found:

Looking at the performance, it turns out that Evans was 1.26% slower than Schumacher in the first, 29km time-trial, and fell to 3.26% slower in the final time-trial. Sastre, on the other hand, was 4.8% slower than Schumacher in TT1 and improved to 4.02% slower in TT2. Sastre was therefore better in TT2 (relative to Schumacher), but not by a huge amount, whereas Evans was considerably worse. Bernard Kohl, who surprised all with his final time-trial (including us), improved from 5% slower to 3.7% slower.

When I saw that data I read between the lines that Sastre not only had a better recovery than Cadel's but improved his performance. But that was just based on times, which are a function of many variables like wind, air density, stage profile, TT distance. So I guess that's why they decided not to make further comments about it.

I took the time (Which I have some today) to evaluate the performance of the first and second time trial. But remember that in this exercise the most important thing is the change in values not the absolute values. So here we go:

First Time Trial: Cholet-Cholet
Distance: 29.5 km
Elevation Change: from 83 m to 97 m
Temperature: 68 F
Wind: average of 18.5 km/hr from the SW. I checked on the weather historical data. Cyclingnews like coverage has25 km/hr, but that seems to be the peaks.
Distribution: 35% side to head wind, 15% head wind and 50% slight tail wind.

Sastre:
CdA: 0.213
Speed: 29.37 mph
Power: 367 W (6.02 W/kg)

Cadel:
CdA: 0.213 (Similar weight and height)
Speed: 30.4 mph
Power: 405 W (6.33 W/kg)

Second TT: Cérilly > Saint-Amand-Montrond

Distance: 53 km
Elevation Change: from 310 m to 159 m
Temperature: 70 F
Wind: average of 6-8 km/hr from the NW. I checked on the weather historical data. Cyclingnews like coverage don't have the information.
Distribution: 10% side wind, 90% head wind.

Sastre:
CdA: 0.213
Speed: 29.76 mph
Power: 391 W (6.41 W/kg)

Cadel:
CdA: 0.213 (Similar weight and height)
Speed: 29.98 mph
Power: 400 W (6.25 W/kg):

Based on power data, Sastre improved 6.14% and Evans decreased 1.25%. Sastre's numbers are impressive not only because of the improvement but because it was a longer time trial (Almost double) on the third week of the tour. On the other side Evans numbers are very close to his initial one. One can claim that he is on recovery therapy but there is no way in this world that somebody is going to know that based on power numbers. But Sastre's numbers looks suspicious to me (IMHO!)

Some people might question my numbers, which is OK, because calculating this for a time trial, I have learned, is very difficult. But if I have an error on a variable at least I am trying to be consistent with it. So the change in performance is ultimately what matter the most.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

YES, it is humanly possible for somebody to get close to 5.8 watts per kilo at FTP clean...And I think Greg Lemond and maybe a couple other guys got to this. But its ultra freakish.

Don't agree with your power numbers for what is 'ultra freakish'...unless you mean in the last week of a GT in which case you might not be miles off. Mercxs did 6.4W/kg for 1hr in the lab and 6.2 - 6.3 in a TT, before the invention of LHTL training and power taps to help riders fine tune how they pace themselves. Boardman did 6.4, Lemond also about 6.2 unless it was the end of a GT, then it dropped below 6.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Cérilly > Saint-Amand-Montrond, Cadel: 400 W (6.25 W/kg)

The numbers for Sastre are interesting - thanks. I'm leaving him on my list of riders I like even if they might not be clean (it's a long list).

The other thing that interested me is, if we assume a ballpark figure of 10% error (based on some of your previous analysis) then we have Cadel at 5.6 - 6.9w/kg for a 53km TT, which he may not have got a refill before. Not proof of course - but I think it indicates it's possible to do more than 5.8w/kg for 1hr at the end of a GT, without a refill during the tour...doesn't mean clean though of course, just 'cleaner'.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Back in next year's Giro.

 

[Ripper]

We know he doesn't have proof. You are reading an opinion, maybe read as "I think evans didn't get a refill" and then its a little easier to take. Bigboats post always relate performance to drugs, it's born of a belief that everyone dopes and noone has improved since lemond.

I know, and I am OK with a person having an opinion. What I am not OK with is pseudo-specific BS. It's not like I think there is no doping in the peloton eek. And by all means, he can go ahead and dislike Cadel Evans because he heard something bad about him. But, if you are gonna spout out numbers, then give me somthing to work with!

All this aside, I see your point. Take BB with a pinch of salt