2010 Volta ao Algarve

[UpTheRoad]

Team classification has become the fanboy's new mantra, since last season's TDF.
July, I see them frantically scanning each stage of the Tour, to see how many RS riders made the top 30, while the rest of us concentrate on the battle for yellow, between Contador, Schleck, Nibali etc.

I think team classification has been a more recent goal. At the TdF, the mantra was multiple podium placewinners. Perhaps I will head over to the RadioShack fan site and encourage talk of a 1-2-3 Team Lance sweep this year. I'll venture they won't take the bit because they know that Team Lance is all-for-one, but not quite one-for-all.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Team classification has become the fanboy's new mantra, since last season's TDF.
July, I see them frantically scanning each stage of the Tour, to see how many RS riders made the top 30, while the rest of us concentrate on the battle for yellow, between Contador, Schleck, Nibali etc.

Team Radio Shack will win a great victory as they consistantly place their third rider far enough ahead of Astana, Saxo, Liquigas etc's third best that they make up for the minutes that the GC contenders have put on their best placed man, and win the team CG going away.

 

[ravens]

It's is a French criminal investigation that threatens half the expected Tour team of RS. It does not have anything to do with sanctions from cycling's anti-doping authorities. It is relevant in any discussion of whether Armstrong will be at the Tour.



Do you really need me to post the threatening PMs you have sent me, Jackhammer? I am sure the others who you have threatened won't find the content a surprise.

Can we all just pass the hat and raise travel funds for the purpose of getting CC and brodeal together to have it out mano a mano in a back alley?

Yeah, I am sure those charity ride crits are a killer, especially if you are as fat as a distillery pig...

A win's a win. And, man, y'oughtta see those kids cry!

 

[UpTheRoad]

Can we all just pass the hat and raise travel funds for the purpose of getting CC and brodeal together to have it out mano a mano in a back alley?

BroDeal is all talk. If he had any decency for his fellow forum members he would have posted the threatening PM's.

I, for one, am convinced he cares not one iota about the entertainment value I would get from reading them.

 

[ravens]

It's is a French criminal investigation that threatens half the expected Tour team of RS. It does not have anything to do with sanctions from cycling's anti-doping authorities. It is relevant in any discussion of whether Armstrong will be at the Tour.



Do you really need me to post the threatening PMs you have sent me, Jackhammer? I am sure the others who you have threatened won't find the content a surprise.

Can we all just pass the hat and raise travel funds for the purpose of getting CC and brodeal together to have it out mano a mano in a back alley?

Yeah, I am sure those charity ride crits are a killer, especially if you are as fat as a distillery pig...

A win's a win. And, man, y'oughtta see those kids cry!

 

[ravens]

BroDeal is all talk. If he had any decency for his fellow forum members he would have posted the threatening PM's.

I, for one, am convinced he cares not one iota about the entertainment value I would get from reading them.

Right on the money. I think every one of us looks forward to CC's posts more than anyone else's here. If he goes away, this place is gonna get boring, fast.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Right on the money. I think every one of us looks forward to CC's posts more than anyone else's here. If he goes away, this place is gonna get boring, fast.

Past history teaches us that even when he does go away he will be replaced in very short order.

 

[ravens]

Past history teaches us that even when he does go away he will be replaced in very short order.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Voltaire

If Carbon Crank did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Ravens

 

[Hugh Januss]

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Voltaire

If Carbon Crank did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Ravens

Having seen your work in the Obama thread I would have to say that you are only a Demand Media paycheck away from filling that void.

 

[Hugh Januss]

BroDeal is all talk. If he had any decency for his fellow forum members he would have posted the threatening PM's.

I, for one, am convinced he cares not one iota about the entertainment value I would get from reading them.

+1 Come on Bro, share.

 

[pmcg76]

+1 Come on Bro, share.

Since this forum started, there has always been at least one person who posts the exact same nonsense as Carbocrank. Its hard to know whether its all the same person cos the rhetoric is so similar.

BroDeal believes that CC is the same guy as a former poster known as Jackhammer who posted the same type of stuff, except he couldnt control himself and went of the edge. He sent a PM to somebody, must have been BroDeal. I cannot remember if it was made public but I think most old longtime posters know the general gist of the PM.

Personally, I dont think PMs should be made public and if they are offensive should be reported which is what happened the previous time.

 

[ravens]

Having seen your work in the Obama thread I would have to say that you are only a Demand Media paycheck away from filling that void.

My work in the Obama thread is brilliant. Any opinion to the contrary is an insult to rational thought. (suppressing urge to put in the rolleyes emoticon)

Demand media is gonna have to come up with something better than $15 a post (see vanity fair article) for me to equal CC's pro-Lance enthusiasm/apologism.

You just can't fake that kind of sincerity.
CORRECTION: MALES can't fake that kind of sincerity.

 

[Publicus]

This part I agree with however I can't se how it will support your theory. If Machado had a strong desire to beat Contador, then he would not have hesitated, and then (depending on the legs) he could have been in play for the overall victory.

If he did as you suggest (try to win the race without being obsessed with beating any particular rider (Contador)) he could very well miss the attack launced by Contador.

My point is, you have to know who to beat. Maybe Armstrong is too obsessed with beating Contador so he will dileberately let someone else take the victory just to ensure that Contador gets nothing, but thats a bit different and if that proofs to be the case then it's of course a very stupid tactic.

I guess my point was if Machado wanted to win, then he should focused on winning and not beating AC. AC was setting up HIS move to win. Machado, on the other hand, was waiting for someone else to counter AC's move and then go. To me if he wanted win, he would have had a tactic that put him in the best position to win, not respond to the inevitable launching of AC.

It's a mentality more so than anything else.

 

[Dr.JSW]

More advantages of a strong team:

A cursory observation of the race will tell you that Astana protected Contador on the flat stages and delivered him to the win on the decisive mountain-top finish, where Contador was only alone for 1.5 km. Seems that they did all they needed to to secure the win. I understand your concerns about mechanicals, and would suggest that maybe the team composition and overall fitness will be a little bit different for the main target on the calendar, giving Contador more help.

Thanks for your response. Another obvious advantage to having a stronger team beyond help with punctures/mechanicals is being able to force the work load on to the team with the GC leader. If AC is #1 and his team only delivers him to the bottom of climb after climb, while another team has three riders in the top ten (e.g. Armstrong, Kloden and Leipheimer), the three can take turns attacking. If AC has no one to assist in covering those attacks, one can get worn down. Didn't AC lose Paris-Nice or one other race due to a bonk. He was trying to cover too many attacks himself. Even if AC is better than each of those three, what if the stronger team separates AC from his teammates with a strong attack on the first big mountain in a stage that has four mountains. If Contador has a mechanical, I'm sure Lance loves AC so much that he would get in front of the lead group and slow them down like Tyler tried to do when the fan's baggie toppled Lance, until Contador caught up again, right?

Through the years, Lance's team has cared very little for team GC. Some European teams, though, take pride in it. The Spanish teams fight very hard for the honor in the Vuelta.

Back to advantages of a strong team, I wish I could remember a stage and year of the Tour (de France I think) about a decade ago when Kelme boys were flying -- and now we know how and why -- up the mountains. On one stage they had probably five riders up the road in front of their highest guy on GC. When their GC guy finally made his move, one Kelme rider after another would drop back and then deliver him to the next guy. It was beautiful. They were crappy on time trials, but fun in the mountains.

 

[BYOP88]

Thanks for your response. Another obvious advantage to having a stronger team beyond help with punctures/mechanicals is being able to force the work load on to the team with the GC leader. If AC is #1 and his team only delivers him to the bottom of climb after climb, while another team has three riders in the top ten (e.g. Armstrong, Kloden and Leipheimer), the three can take turns attacking. If AC has no one to assist in covering those attacks, one can get worn down. Didn't AC lose Paris-Nice or one other race due to a bonk. He was trying to cover too many attacks himself. Even if AC is better than each of those three, what if the stronger team separates AC from his teammates with a strong attack on the first big mountain in a stage that has four mountains. If Contador has a mechanical, I'm sure Lance loves AC so much that he would get in front of the lead group and slow them down like Tyler tried to do when the fan's baggie toppled Lance, until Contador caught up again, right? .

51 Alberto Contador (Spa)
52 Alexandr Dyachenko (Kaz)
53 Daniel Navarro (Spa)
54 Benjamin Noval (Spa)
55 Sergio Paulinho (Por)
56 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr)
57 Michael Schär (Swi)
58 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa)

That was the Astana team for last years Paris-Nice, all the big name helpers have since gone on to RS. So if they couldn't do a job for Contador last year in an 8 stage race how will they provide better support for Armstrong in a 21 stage race(I'm guessing 56 and 58 will end up in the RS 9 man TdF team, not sure about 55). As for Levi, Kloden attacking not going to happen as much as Lance says it's not about him come July it will be. Also if you can show me some footage of Levi attacking I'd be delighted and greatful.

Through the years, Lance's team has cared very little for team GC. Some European teams, though, take pride in it. The Spanish teams fight very hard for the honor in the Vuelta.

Back to advantages of a strong team, I wish I could remember a stage and year of the Tour (de France I think) about a decade ago when Kelme boys were flying -- and now we know how and why -- up the mountains. On one stage they had probably five riders up the road in front of their highest guy on GC. When their GC guy finally made his move, one Kelme rider after another would drop back and then deliver him to the next guy. It was beautiful. They were crappy on time trials, but fun in the mountains.

But what's stopping a few Astana guys going in breaks then dropping back and helping Contador, when the main group catches up? Plus Contador will have at least 1 teammate with him plus a few spanish friends from Cassie too until the last 5-6km. If you look at Levi, Horner, Kloden, Popo etc they tend to struggle when the big boys turn on the gas. As for the Kelme thing I can recall Liberty-Seguros doing that to Menchov in the 05 Vuelta, several guys were already up the road then Heras hit the gas and Menchov couldn't respond.

 

[Publicus]

Thanks for your response. Another obvious advantage to having a stronger team beyond help with punctures/mechanicals is being able to force the work load on to the team with the GC leader. If AC is #1 and his team only delivers him to the bottom of climb after climb, while another team has three riders in the top ten (e.g. Armstrong, Kloden and Leipheimer), the three can take turns attacking. If AC has no one to assist in covering those attacks, one can get worn down. Didn't AC lose Paris-Nice or one other race due to a bonk. He was trying to cover too many attacks himself. Even if AC is better than each of those three, what if the stronger team separates AC from his teammates with a strong attack on the first big mountain in a stage that has four mountains. If Contador has a mechanical, I'm sure Lance loves AC so much that he would get in front of the lead group and slow them down like Tyler tried to do when the fan's baggie toppled Lance, until Contador caught up again, right?

Through the years, Lance's team has cared very little for team GC. Some European teams, though, take pride in it. The Spanish teams fight very hard for the honor in the Vuelta.

Back to advantages of a strong team, I wish I could remember a stage and year of the Tour (de France I think) about a decade ago when Kelme boys were flying -- and now we know how and why -- up the mountains. On one stage they had probably five riders up the road in front of their highest guy on GC. When their GC guy finally made his move, one Kelme rider after another would drop back and then deliver him to the next guy. It was beautiful. They were crappy on time trials, but fun in the mountains.

This fantasy has been rolling around a lot (Radio Shack attacking), so let's dispel it now. First of all, when a team is driving the peloton on behalf of their GC candidate, they are either (a) controlling the break or (b) setting up a move (attack at base of mountain). If Radio Shack rides along until they set up their move, then I'm not at all worried about Lance, Kloden or Levi attacking, because it won't stick because, so far as I know, Lance doesn't have the explosiveness to create a gap any more, and Kloden and Levi never had it. At Paris-Nice, it was a culmination of things (weak team, attacking by group, racing from beginning of stage), but the biggest one was a hunger bonk. He simply forgot to eat enough. He was there until the last 15 KM, which if I recall was no longer a climb but a descent to the finish (he was pedaling squares). I think much as been made of that stage, but no one has been able to replicate it again. More to the point, I don't think Radio Shack has the legs to replicate because, again, they aren't attacking riders (they are all diesels).

Moreover, we've SEEN this exact tactic just last year. Saxo Bank did this on Verbier and Col de Romme/Colombiere. AC covered the first real move by Frank, Lance towed Andy and Wiggins back up to the group, and AC went from 5KM out. On Col de Romme/Colombiere, he covered attacks. He was essentially alone on the slopes of Col de Romme, since Kloden was holding HIS wheel and not providing any assistance. Now, if he could go with two of the best climbers in the business, why would he have a problem manage three good, but not great climbers? Especially when Astana has riders who are equal to them in the mountains (David DLF, Navarro, Tiralongo, Pereiro and Vino).

I expect Team Lance to finish higher on GC simply because they have three good overall GC candidates, but no exceptional GC candidates. They are 2009 Astana without their best rider by a wide margin.

 

[BYOP88]

I expect Team Lance to finish higher on GC simply because they have three good overall GC candidates, but no exceptional GC candidates. They are 2009 Astana without their best rider by a wide margin.

Totally agree.

 

[kurtinsc]

BYOP, what exactly are you trying to say?

The team you linked will only have 2-3 people in common with the RS tour team. Paulinho, Popo and Zubeldia will be working throughout. While they might hang around on the lower slopes, they won't make a 10-15 man selection. In theory, guys like Leipheimer and Kloden would.

I'd guess after Lance, RS will have 2-3 climbers ahead of the best support Contador had at Paris-Nice... wouldn't you agree? Hardly seems comparable.

 

[BYOP88]

BYOP, what exactly are you trying to say?

The team you linked will only have 2-3 people in common with the RS tour team. Paulinho, Popo and Zubeldia will be working throughout. While they might hang around on the lower slopes, they won't make a 10-15 man selection. In theory, guys like Leipheimer and Kloden would.

I'd guess after Lance, RS will have 2-3 climbers ahead of the best support Contador had at Paris-Nice... wouldn't you agree? Hardly seems comparable.

The point I'm failing to make is this, if Popo, Paulinho and Zubeldia weren't able to help Contador out in Paris-Nice, how are they going to help Armstrong in the Tour when the mountains are much bigger and longer than those faced in Paris-Nice. Levi and Kloden may make a 10-15 man selection on the final mountain but if they're not going to set a high pace to burn off Contador or baby Schleck or if they can't follow/pull back an attack they may as well not be there.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

This fantasy has been rolling around a lot (Radio Shack attacking), so let's dispel it now. First of all, when a team is driving the peloton on behalf of their GC candidate, they are either (a) controlling the break or (b) setting up a move (attack at base of mountain). If Radio Shack rides along until they set up their move, then I'm not at all worried about Lance, Kloden or Levi attacking, because it won't stick because, so far as I know, Lance doesn't have the explosiveness to create a gap any more, and Kloden and Levi never had it. At Paris-Nice, it was a culmination of things (weak team, attacking by group, racing from beginning of stage), but the biggest one was a hunger bonk. He simply forgot to eat enough. He was there until the last 15 KM, which if I recall was no longer a climb but a descent to the finish (he was pedaling squares). I think much as been made of that stage, but no one has been able to replicate it again. More to the point, I don't think Radio Shack has the legs to replicate because, again, they aren't attacking riders (they are all diesels).
Moreover, we've SEEN this exact tactic just last year. Saxo Bank did this on Verbier and Col de Romme/Colombiere. AC covered the first real move by Frank, Lance towed Andy and Wiggins back up to the group, and AC went from 5KM out. On Col de Romme/Colombiere, he covered attacks. He was essentially alone on the slopes of Col de Romme, since Kloden was holding HIS wheel and not providing any assistance. Now, if he could go with two of the best climbers in the business, why would he have a problem manage three good, but not great climbers? Especially when Astana has riders who are equal to them in the mountains (David DLF, Navarro, Tiralongo, Pereiro and Vino).

I expect Team Lance to finish higher on GC simply because they have three good overall GC candidates, but no exceptional GC candidates. They are 2009 Astana without their best rider by a wide margin.

I agree they aren't attacking riders, but I expect to see a different more aggressive approach. Realistically, I don't expect much success because, as you mentioned, they lack explosiveness to create gaps, but they do have the motors, so I expect attacks coming from all three and often. Will it be successful? AC's brilliance in the mountains and recent history will indicate no. Will that stop them from trying to break AC down? Absolutley not.

 

[Publicus]

I agree they aren't attacking riders, but I expect to see a different more aggressive approach. Realistically, I don't expect much success because, as you mentioned, they lack explosiveness to create gaps, but they do have the motors, so I expect attacks coming from all three and often. Will it be successful? AC's brilliance in the mountains and recent history will indicate no. Will that stop them from trying to break AC down? Absolutley not.

There is a tactic to deal with attacks from diesels. You keep the tempo high and there is nothing they can do about it. See USPS-Discovery Channel circa 1999-2005. Heck, see Verbier and Col de Romme last year (Saxo Bank turned up the heat). Or even Stage 3 of the Volta ao Algarve--it's February and no one is in peak form, but I suspect the reason no one attacked or tried to stop the inevitable attack is because they simply couldn't.

All of that being said, I think there is a potential for Radio Shack to exploit other's attacks, but so far no one has really offered that up as a tactic.

 

[thehog]

If Kloden & Levi were close enough to GC after pacing Mr. Lance up big French mountains - and keeping with the fantasy attacked, taking turns. What would AC do? He would wait, he would soft pedal & not chase. Why? He knows Lance mentally. There is no way Mr. Lance would ever let his own team-mate finish higher than him let alone win. No chance.

If the fantasy occured you'd find Armstrong would eventually chase down his own teammates but more than likely call them back.

AC has to chase nothing.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

There is a tactic to deal with attacks from diesels. You keep the tempo high and there is nothing they can do about it. See USPS-Discovery Channel circa 1999-2005. Heck, see Verbier and Col de Romme last year (Saxo Bank turned up the heat). Or even Stage 3 of the Volta ao Algarve--it's February and no one is in peak form, but I suspect the reason no one attacked or tried to stop the inevitable attack is because they simply couldn't.

True, but I wonder if Astana 2010 has the power to keep the pace high enough. They probably do, but since I really haven't seen much of the team in its current form, I'll have my doubts.

All of that being said, I think there is a potential for Radio Shack to exploit other's attacks, but so far no one has really offered that up as a tactic.

Very true. Saxo, Liquigas, and Caisse will be attacking as well, and RS could easily take advantage. Yup, we're gonna see some damn good racing in these mountains.

 

[kurtinsc]

The point I'm failing to make is this, if Popo, Paulinho and Zubeldia weren't able to help Contador out in Paris-Nice, how are they going to help Armstrong in the Tour when the mountains are much bigger and longer than those faced in Paris-Nice. Levi and Kloden may make a 10-15 man selection on the final mountain but if they're not going to set a high pace to burn off Contador or baby Schleck or if they can't follow/pull back an attack they may as well not be there.

On that I agree. FRankly I don't think anyone can set a pace to drop Contador unless he bonks.

But Paulinho and Zubeldia won't be montain help in the Tour any more then they were for Astana last year. They were being relied on as climbing domestiques in P-N last year. In the Tour, they're just general domestiques who can climb. I think it breaks the comparison between P-N and the Tour support squads since those guys will be/did perform different roles in those two races.

Contador will only be hurt by a weak team if he bonks. If he does and is weak in a stage with a long series, and RS has Lance/Kloden/Levi still around and Saxo has Schleck/Schleck/Fuglsang... well he might have some issues.

If Lance were to struggle similarly, he could follow a pace from Kloden (like he did on Verbier last year) and limit losses. I simply don't see a rider on Astana that would be able to do that for Contador... unless Vino is back to where he was.

If Contador rides like this past Tour, he simply won't need it though.

 

[mr. tibbs]

In support of Dr.JSW, consider what just happened to Frank Schleck at the Vuelta Andalucia: Dude broke his chain on the last climb and had to wait up for the team car, which was X minutes away, killing his shot at the overall and the stage.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that, come July, Vino, Perreiro, and/or de la Fuente will be somewhere nearby when the going gets tough.