2010 Volta ao Algarve

[ravens]

I really think you're way off on this one. I know it's only an opinion but why do you think this?

I just saw this as I was heading out. I will post the thought in the appropriate thread tomorrow. We are getting a little off topic in this thread.

 

[Hugh Januss]

This guy can't find a thread he can't turn to doping talk.

If I wanted to hear internet crank theories about infusion kits I'd go to the clinic. But he has to force his crap on the rest of us.

There are rules about dope talk here. It's clear they don't apply to some.

That's not "dope talk" that's "criminal investigation" talk.

 

[ravens]

That's gold, Jerry. Gold!

The comedy stylings of Craboncrank continue.

Why do they call it Ovaltine? The mug is round. The jar is
round. They should call it round tine. That's gold, Jerry! Gold!

 

[Hugh Januss]

The important part of what you see above is they never finished 20th, as Astana did today.

It doubt you can find a Johann team ever finishing that far down.

Even adding Vino and Oscar Pereiro to the mix and they are still thin.

Not sure what "It doubt you can find...." means, altough it did remind me of "It puts the lotion on....."
As to your point (I think it was your point) that Astana is not as strong as Radio Shack top to bottom, agreed. But so what? They have the strongest stage racer in the world and a good choice of guys to send with him who will all subvert their own ambitions to work for one man, Contador. I don't see a problem there.

 

[BroDeal]

This guy can't find a thread he can't turn to doping talk.

If I wanted to hear internet crank theories about infusion kits I'd go to the clinic. But he has to force his crap on the rest of us.

There are rules about dope talk here. It's clear they don't apply to some.

And you cannot seem to find a thread you cannot turn into a non-stop moronathon about Armstrong and Retirement Shack based on your vast experience "racing" charity rides in the fifty pounds overweight class. You insist on foisting your unending idiocy on the rest of us.

I'm sorry that the French police found infusions kits with the DNA profiles of seven different people in Astana's garbage. If you want to stick your head in the sand then go ahead. Denying reality is nothing new to you. I guess it's easy to win the team competition you are always babbling about when 7 out of 8 of the riders are cheating.

I'll be awaiting your usual PMs threatening me and asking to arrange a fight.

 

[mr. tibbs]

The important part of what you see above is they never finished 20th, as Astana did today.

It doubt you can find a Johann team ever finishing that far down.

Even adding Vino and Oscar Pereiro to the mix and they are still thin.

I'd argue that who cares? The only important spot is 1st, which is something Bruyneel would agree with, I think. Stop trying to demean the Contador/Astana victory with these silly little jabs.

Radio Shack had an amazing race, too--that Rosseler fellow can sure turn cranks, and Machado has a promising future. You should be happy!

 

[Dr.JSW]

Obsession, who? Aggressive, yep!

What is up with the obsession about team rankings? . . . Sorry if I come off as aggressive, I'm actually a Kloden fan, not a Contador fan, but c'mon...

Obsession?????? I asked a question about team rankings, my first posting and you accuse me of obsession. Who is obsessed? I asked a question because I have not viewed the race or followed the stroke-by-stroke commentary on-line yet, and you go into a tirade. Do you come off as aggressive? Yep! Guilty as per your confession.

Why do team rankings matter? If a team can only deliver a rider to the bottom of a climb, and then soft-pedal, that is dangerous in a 3-week tour. What if the GC rider has a puncture or mechanical half way up one of the many climbs? One incident where the spare tire change takes 5 or 10 minutes versus getting one from a team mate and your Tour chances are over. Remember the Columbian climber whose chain broke about 7 or 9 years ago as he was storming up a climb with a nice lead? Armstrong would have Leipheimer within 10 seconds of him, if he wasn't already shielding him from the wind at that point. Kloden would be close too. USPS during Lance's streak of Tour wins, the team I mentioned in my post for comparison, didn't just bring Lance to the bottom of the climb. They were usually with him until 2, 3 or 4 kilos to go. Even Big George could make it half way up those climbs.

You were being defensive of AC even though I didn't attack him, so you c'mon. Good grief! I'm not a Lance fan but I am an AC fan, and a Kloden fan (have been for over a decade), and a ... fan and a ... fan.

 

[Prodigy]

I'm sorry that the French police found infusions kits with the DNA profiles of seven different people in Astana's garbage.

That's not quite what they said. They found some IV equipment and seven DNA profiles on separate needles. No banned drugs were found, but some anti seizure medication was found.

IV equipment is sometimes used for dehydration purposes. Needles are also used for vitamins. We don't know if it had anything to do with doping.

LA and the others on the team don't seem too worried about it, so it probably doesn't amount to much. That's probably why we haven't heard any new developments. They don't have anything.

 

[BroDeal]

That's not quite what they said. They found some IV equipment and seven DNA profiles on separate needles. No banned drugs were found, but some anti seizure medication was found.

IV equipment is sometimes used for dehydration purposes. Needles are also used for vitamins. We don't know if it had anything to do with doping.

The IV equipment itself is illegal. It does not matter if they were infusing saline or blood. All IVs have been banned for several years now.

In the disussion above about whether Armstrong will be at the Tour, the French criminal investiagation has to be taken into account. That is what might keep him from the TdF, not fear of loss to Contador. He will want to show up at the Tour just to have his ego stroked.

 

[Dr.JSW]

Thank you for the reply!

I don't think so. If Vino is allowed to race, & Pereiro is fit, they'll be higher in the classification. They're also mixing in other teammates with Alberto at different races so they can see who works together the best, etc. I don't expect them to finish up there with Saxo Bank, or try to. But they'll have guys who, instead of trying to balance out the effort, will give everything they have on a given day. I could imagine someone going all out on the front one day and riding in the grupetto the next to recover. It's going to be fun watching them come together, and to see how they perform in races with other leaders.

That makes sense. I hope it works out that way for AC. Thank you for the reasonable reply!

 

[Dr.JSW]

1999: 8th, 57'13 behind Banesto
2000: 8th, 1h46'04 behind Kelme
2001: 6th, 54'41 behind Kelme
2002: 2nd, 22'49 behind Once
2003: 4th, 44'53 behind Team CSC
2004: 2nd, 2'42 behind T-Mobile
2005: 2nd, 14'57 behind T-Mobile

So they never won the team classement in Lance's run, but oddly Disco did win it in 07.

Thanks for the statistics. This shows how Lance's team got stronger and stronger by the year as it became a machine to back him as far down the road and as far up the mountain as possible. Didn't he win the first year with a surprise attack near the bottom of the first real mountain, putting 7, 8, or 9 minutes into his rivals? And wasn't the thick-glasses Swiss dude 2nd that year?

 

[Publicus]

This is typical Publicus tripe. Johann Bruyneel wins races. He works to beat whoever it takes to do that. The idea they think they need to go out of their way to beat AC inflates his importance way out of proportion. If he's the one in the way, then he'll be the one they want to beat. If AC ends up third then the guy they needed to beat is the one that finished second, his name is completely unimportant.
These guys didn't get where they are by making it personal. They are professionals.

No, this isn't typical of me, that's what Armstrong and Bruyneel have focused on: beating AC.

As for Bruyneel wins races . . he works to beat whoever it takes to do that. Well he lost Algarve. He didn't beat AC who was the guy who won, so much for your Bruyneel just wins bit.

 

[Berzin]

There are rules about dope talk here. It's clear they don't apply to some.

Well, you engage in "dope talk" with every post you type-meaning, written by a dope.

 

[Publicus]

Thanks for the statistics. This shows how Lance's team got stronger and stronger by the year as it became a machine to back him as far down the road and as far up the mountain as possible. Didn't he win the first year with a surprise attack near the bottom of the first real mountain, putting 7, 8, or 9 minutes into his rivals? And wasn't the thick-glasses Swiss dude 2nd that year?

I guess, but I don't get the point you and Carbon Crank are trying to make here. The name of the game isn't get as high a placement for your team as possible. It's to put your man in position to win. If DDLF wanted to I guess he could have just tried to hold onto Machado's wheel and finish in the top 10. But then what does that mean for the next day? Domestiques sacrifice themselves for the team leader. If that means working until you hit your limit, then soft pedaling home, that's what it means. If it means defending attacks, then that's what they do. Their goal isn't high placement. It's GC victory.

Radio Shack doesn't have a real GC threat. They have a bunch of really good, but not great guys. So yeah they hang around the top 10 because they are really good, but none of them are going to crack the top spot because when the hammer is dropped, they aren't the cream of the crop. You saw a perfect example of it at Algarve.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Obsession?????? I asked a question about team rankings, my first posting and you accuse me of obsession. Who is obsessed? I asked a question because I have not viewed the race or followed the stroke-by-stroke commentary on-line yet, and you go into a tirade. Do you come off as aggressive? Yep! Guilty as per your confession.

Why do team rankings matter? If a team can only deliver a rider to the bottom of a climb, and then soft-pedal, that is dangerous in a 3-week tour. What if the GC rider has a puncture or mechanical half way up one of the many climbs? One incident where the spare tire change takes 5 or 10 minutes versus getting one from a team mate and your Tour chances are over. Remember the Columbian climber whose chain broke about 7 or 9 years ago as he was storming up a climb with a nice lead? Armstrong would have Leipheimer within 10 seconds of him, if he wasn't already shielding him from the wind at that point. Kloden would be close too. USPS during Lance's streak of Tour wins, the team I mentioned in my post for comparison, didn't just bring Lance to the bottom of the climb. They were usually with him until 2, 3 or 4 kilos to go. Even Big George could make it half way up those climbs.

You were being defensive of AC even though I didn't attack him, so you c'mon. Good grief! I'm not a Lance fan but I am an AC fan, and a Kloden fan (have been for over a decade), and a ... fan and a ... fan.

Oh dear! I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to sound like I was trying to jump your case! There has just been a lot of talk from a certain camp w/r/t the importance of the team classification, which camp tends to represent the interests of a certain rider/DS who never really cared about the team classification until it became a talking point in the psychological war against a certain Spaniard. So but that's how come the "obsession" bit; it wasn't aimed at you personally, just a general comment.

Again, I'm sorry, and please try to disregard any negativity. I really didn't mean any offense, and am a bit surprised that so much was taken, though now I can understand why it might be. (But I do think "tirade" is a bit strong.) I also mean no offense with the following.

A cursory observation of the race will tell you that Astana protected Contador on the flat stages and delivered him to the win on the decisive mountain-top finish, where Contador was only alone for 1.5 km. Seems that they did all they needed to to secure the win. I understand your concerns about mechanicals, and would suggest that maybe the team composition and overall fitness will be a little bit different for the main target on the calendar, giving Contador more help.

Also, the only reason I made that clumsy Contador/Kloden admission at the end of my previous post was to avoid a misunderstanding of this type. I'm really not trying to defend Contador, regardless of your intentions with your initial (and first, welcome to the forum!) post, I was just pointing out that his team performed very well this race--better than any other team, based on the results in the most important classification.

I apologize for the "obsession" thing; again, I meant it in a general sense, referring to the trend of constant criticism from certain spheres of cycling fandom of everything Contador/Astana does. If you scroll back through the thread and read some posts by carboncrank you'll understand what I mean.

Again, sorry.

EDIT: Yeah, having re-read my other post, I can see how that word, "obsession," right at the start could lend a more aggressive tone to the post than I had, or would ever, intend. Again, sorry. I have no interest in being an internet tough guy.

 

[franciep10]

The IV equipment itself is illegal. It does not matter if they were infusing saline or blood. All IVs have been banned for several years now.

In the disussion above about whether Armstrong will be at the Tour, the French criminal investiagation has to be taken into account. That is what might keep him from the TdF, not fear of loss to Contador. He will want to show up at the Tour just to have his ego stroked.

Bro Deal I don't normally agree with cranky but maybe that discussion should go to th clinic JMHO

 

[BYOP88]

Thanks for the statistics. This shows how Lance's team got stronger and stronger by the year as it became a machine to back him as far down the road and as far up the mountain as possible. Didn't he win the first year with a surprise attack near the bottom of the first real mountain, putting 7, 8, or 9 minutes into his rivals? And wasn't the thick-glasses Swiss dude 2nd that year?

Well on the 1st mountain stage he did attack and gain some time on his rivals. Zulle(thick-glasses Swiss dude) did finish that Tour 2nd 7'37 behind Armstrong, but Zulle did lose 6+ minutes on stage 2 thanks to a mass pile up on the Passage du Gois.

Yeah I guess USPS got better riders as the budget increased due to Armstrong winning the Tour every year which enabled him to get stronger/better mountain goats.

 

[dolophonic]

Scoreboard to Alberto.....

 

[Carboncrank]

And you cannot seem to find a thread you cannot turn into a non-stop moronathon about Armstrong and Retirement Shack based on your vast experience "racing" charity rides in the fifty pounds overweight class. You insist on foisting your unending idiocy on the rest of us.

I'm sorry that the French police found infusions kits with the DNA profiles of seven different people in Astana's garbage. If you want to stick your head in the sand then go ahead. Denying reality is nothing new to you. I guess it's easy to win the team competition you are always babbling about when 7 out of 8 of the riders are cheating.

I'll be awaiting your usual PMs threatening me and asking to arrange a fight.

You won't stop with the doping talk.

I raced crits. Where were your pics fat boy?

Why do you want to fight me fat boy?

 

[Carboncrank]

Not sure what "It doubt you can find...." means, altough it did remind me of "It puts the lotion on....."
As to your point (I think it was your point) that Astana is not as strong as Radio Shack top to bottom, agreed. But so what? They have the strongest stage racer in the world and a good choice of guys to send with him who will all subvert their own ambitions to work for one man, Contador. I don't see a problem there.

"Good choice of guys" you say. It's not evident in this grouping.

 

[BroDeal]

You won't stop with the doping talk.

It's is a French criminal investigation that threatens half the expected Tour team of RS. It does not have anything to do with sanctions from cycling's anti-doping authorities. It is relevant in any discussion of whether Armstrong will be at the Tour.

I raced crits.

Yeah, I am sure those charity ride crits are a killer, especially if you are as fat as a distillery pig..

Why do you want to fight me fat boy?

Do you really need me to post the threatening PMs you have sent me, Jackhammer? I am sure the others who you have threatened won't find the content a surprise.

 

[Publicus]

"Good choice of guys" you say. It's not evident in this grouping.

Sure it is. They beat Radio Shack and every other team in the race. They had a goal (AC GC victory) and achieved it. Your complaint seems to be with their goal--that it should have been get as many riders in the top 10. When you are a DS for a pro tour team, then I guess you can have that as a goal. But I will say your sponsors won't be very happy.

 

[Big GMaC]

Where were your pics fat boy?

Why do you want to fight me fat boy?

Er, having seen that photo of "you" posted in one of the other threads I wouldn't be throwing out too many 'fat boy' stones... if you that from inside your glass house then you might get hurt as it crashes down around you.

Bro, if you do end up fighting him, I would run around him for a bit, you know, get him tired, then Bam.

Kinda like AC did Machado on that climb.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I thought the important part was finishing in yellow.

Who tunes in for the teams standings? Nobody.

Team classification has become the fanboy's new mantra, since last season's TDF.
July, I see them frantically scanning each stage of the Tour, to see how many RS riders made the top 30, while the rest of us concentrate on the battle for yellow, between Contador, Schleck, Nibali etc.

 

[Bike Boy]

I guess my point is you could achieve one without the other, but not vice versa. You can beat AC and not win the Tour, but you can't win the Tour without beating AC (unless he doesn't ride or is injured). Basing your goals on another is wrought with failure. Look at this race. Machado was lamenting that he could have won Stage 3 and possibly the race if he hadn't waited for another GC contender to go after AC first. The first thing that came to my mind is that if you wanted to win the stage, why wait for someone else to make their move. It robs you of control over the situation.

Now I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the stage, but Machado arguably would have had a better chance of winning if he hadn't waited. It wasn't like everyone in the peloton didn't know what was about to go down. Astana set that up USPS style and no one did a damn thing to stop it until it was too late.

This part I agree with however I can't se how it will support your theory. If Machado had a strong desire to beat Contador, then he would not have hesitated, and then (depending on the legs) he could have been in play for the overall victory.

If he did as you suggest (try to win the race without being obsessed with beating any particular rider (Contador)) he could very well miss the attack launced by Contador.

My point is, you have to know who to beat. Maybe Armstrong is too obsessed with beating Contador so he will dileberately let someone else take the victory just to ensure that Contador gets nothing, but thats a bit different and if that proofs to be the case then it's of course a very stupid tactic.