2011 Vuelta returning to Pays Basque?

[khardung la]

Nice, Spanish nationalists.

Spanish citizens, in my case. And it is not a matter of nationalism, it is a matter of individual rights. For example the right to not being killed in your own country. the right to live wherever you want. The right to not fear everyday when someone rings the door bell. The right to not be insulted in the streets in your own village.

Taxes, conditions to access a job, and a long etcetera are different in the Pais Vasco. Which is unfair.

It is not about tribal rights (=nationalism) it is about individual rights as a citizen. It is amazing that 65 years later in a corner of Europe the same racists are back.

I would not joke with these issues anyway.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vuelta al País Vasco = Euskal Herriko Itzulia. The race site says as much.

And the "independence and autonomy" thing was only me talking in comparison to Scotland and Wales, which ARE independent and semi-autonomous.

The problem is, anywhere nationalism is strong, other groups feel their identity to be under threat, and that increases their nationalism in response. When a change in the power structure happens, these nationalisms and regionalisms come to the fore and become hard to reconcile with one another.

After many years of the 'nationalities' being threatened under Franco, Basque nationalism is strengthened, just as you see from the internal nationalities in the former Yugoslavia, from former nationalities in Russia, and so on. Conciliatory attitudes are long and slow processes.

 

[khardung la]

.......Scotland and Wales, which ARE independent and semi-autonomous.

I guess you are kidding, maybe you should inform the UN about their independence.

You can use capital letters, but that will not make Scotland and Wales independent. To be independent requires something else than their own national football team

 

[Señor_Contador]

[...]The problem is, anywhere nationalism is strong, other groups feel their identity to be under threat, and that increases their nationalism in response. When a change in the power structure happens, these nationalisms and regionalisms come to the fore and become hard to reconcile with one another.[...]

Sure, German nationalism was very strong during Hitler's time too. And look at what happened.

ETA is Euskadi's SS. The only reason why ETA and the rest of the Basque nationalists are not putting people into concentration camps (and eventually into gas chambers) is because they are far outnumbered by the non-nationalists, so the killing has to be gradual, so as not to upset the larger non-nationalist majority, but intensive and precise enough to intimidate them.

Add to it the fact that a rather large majority of the Basque elites are behind these nationalistic movements and you have a minority (only 33% of Basques want independence) with maximum exposure, acting in the most fascist of ways.

THAT is Basque nationalism.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Nice, Spanish nationalists.

I have no problem saying "to hell Spain and to hell Galicia".

Can you say the same thing about Euskadi or Catalunya?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sure, German nationalism was very strong during Hitler's time too. And look at what happened.

And look what happened when it fell. I'm not a fan of any nationalism really, but in the case of minorities like the Sorbs and Basques I can understand why they might turn to it, if they feel their identity is under threat.

ETA is Euskadi's SS. The only reason why ETA and the rest of the Basque nationalists are not putting people into concentration camps (and eventually into gas chambers) is because they are far outnumbered by the non-nationalists, so the killing has to be gradual, so as not to upset the larger non-nationalist majority, but intensive and precise enough to intimidate them.

I'd say more the SA, the brown-shirts. The SS only came to great prominence when the NSDAP had reached enough strength and rank to be able to participate as a relatively major player in national politics. The SA's job was to create unrest, start fights and riots with Communists and other groups, conduct the occasional kidnap or murder.

The point is not about Scotland being independent of England (it isn't, though it does have a devolved government, meaning Scottish MPs can have a say in what goes on in the British Parliament, as they are part of it, but English MPs cannot have a say what goes on in the Scottish Parliament, as they are not part of it), but the fact that around the world, people regard Britain as one entity, comprising of separate countries, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. Only the most ardent of Basque nationalists would
even begin to claim that around the world, people regard Spain as consisting of multiple smaller countries, of which the Basque country would be one. Scotland is an entity independent of England; País Vasco is not an entity independent of Spain.

Anyway, now we're arguing semantics rather than the matter at hand.

 

[ruamruam]

Sure, German nationalism was very strong during Hitler's time too. And look at what happened.

ETA is Euskadi's SS. The only reason why ETA and the rest of the Basque nationalists are not putting people into concentration camps (and eventually into gas chambers) is because they are far outnumbered by the non-nationalists, so the killing has to be gradual, so as not to upset the larger non-nationalist majority, but intensive and precise enough to intimidate them.

Add to it the fact that a rather large majority of the Basque elites are behind these nationalistic movements and you have a minority (only 33% of Basques want independence) with maximum exposure, acting in the most fascist of ways.

THAT is Basque nationalism.

This is just a little bit over the top and before anyone accuses me of supporting ETA, I don't. But comparing them to the NAZIs is a little bit extreme.

 

[khardung la]

This is just a little bit over the top and before anyone accuses me of supporting ETA, I don't. But comparing them to the NAZIs is a little bit extreme.

I wonder what is your personal experience. If they did not go further it is because they are outnumbered and they are in the EU through Spain. In other times/circumstances I have no doubt they would try to emulate what happened in Germany. Well, in fact a small bunch of them have tried already, bombing and shooting. I have seen so many times people shouting "ETA matalos". I mean normal citizens in the streets.

"ETA matalos" means "ETA, kill them".

 

[Señor_Contador]

And look what happened when it fell. I'm not a fan of any nationalism really, but in the case of minorities like the Sorbs and Basques I can understand why they might turn to it, if they feel their identity is under threat.

Right, so... because they "feel" their "identity" is under "threat" it is OK to kill those you "feel" "threat" you. Which pretty much means a Basque can kill any human, any where at any time if they "feel" they are being threatened. Like I said, fascism 101.

Only the most ardent of Basque nationalists would even begin to claim that around the world, people regard Spain as consisting of multiple smaller countries, of which the Basque country would be one.

A Basque nationalist will never claim that Spain is made up of smaller "countries" because, for them, Euskadi (or Euskal Herria) is not a part of Spain.

I mean, we can get into the semantics field if you want to... and talk about... simple as simple a concept as Galicia, Euskadi or Catalunya having NEVER been an actual "country", or and actual "state" or an actual "nation".

Scotland is an entity independent of England; País Vasco is not an entity independent of Spain.

No, Scotland IS NOT independent of the UK (which you confuse with England). The Pais Vasco is FAR CLOSER to total independence than Scotland.

 

[Señor_Contador]

This is just a little bit over the top and before anyone accuses me of supporting ETA, I don't. But comparing them to the NAZIs is a little bit extreme.

I concede it is a bit extreme, I do not deny that. But the very same logic used by the Nazis is being used by the Basque nationalists today: I feel my reality is under threat so you must die. Who dies? It's the Basque nationalist's choice.

The Basque country, by the way, is the only "democratic" place where members of non-nationalist parties have to walk around surrounded by bodyguards. This is happening TODAY. Not 100 years ago. Today.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Right, so... because they "feel" their "identity" is under "threat" it is OK to kill those you "feel" "threat" you. Which pretty much means any human, anywhere at any time. Like I said, fascism 101.

Where did I say that I thought their actions were okay? I can understand why they feel aggrieved, but that doesn't justify the actions of ETA.

A Basque nationalist will never claim that Spain is made up of smaller "countries" because, for them, Euskadi (or Euskal Herria) is not a part of Spain.

Touché. Point conceded.

I mean, we can get into the semantic field if you want to... and talk about... simple as simple a concept as Galicia, Euskadi or Catalunya NEVER being an actual "country", or and actual "state" or an actual "nation".

But it depends on which definition you use. Under some definitions of "nation" then they are a "nation". Hard to have "nationalism" for something that isn't a "nation" - though they do not have an actual "state" of their own.

No, Scotland IS NOT independent of the UK (which you confuse with England). The Paid Vasco is FAR CLOSER to total independence than Scotland.

Trust me, I understand the pitfalls of conflating England with Britain (and much, much worse, conflating 'Ireland' with Britain). But many outside of Britain do not, and are happy to conflate them, usually out of ignorance. But even those that do so know of Scotland and Wales as being different places with their own traditions and customs. And though it's not a general rule or anything, you'll find many Scots or Welsh who will correct somebody calling them 'British' to be more specific. Scotland is not independent of the UK, but it is recognised by many as a 'country' independent of the other British 'countries'.

 

[Barrus]

Right, so... because they "feel" their "identity" is under "threat" it is OK to kill those you "feel" "threat" you. Which pretty much means a Basque can kill any human, any where at any time if they "feel" they are being threatened. Like I said, fascism 101.



I mean, we can get into the semantics field if you want to... and talk about... simple as simple a concept as Galicia, Euskadi or Catalunya having NEVER been an actual "country", or and actual "state" or an actual "nation".

Concerning the first part, this motivation and this type of reasoning is certainlyu not specific to fascism, and can in no way be described as Nazism, in the latter there was no feeling of threatening, the jewish people were more a method to achieve a goal, a goal of power.

Concerning the second. Euskadi at least, and probably Catalunya, don't really know for sure concerning Galicia, but there is a high possibility, that they all can be considered as nations. They have some form of self-government, now or in the past, and although this is not complete autonomy, this is not really necessary, also it is completely clear that the Basques are to be considered a people and at the very least have the right to a protection of their customs, language and everything that they view as being Basque, and have a right to a significant amount of autonomy

 

[Señor_Contador]

Concerning the first part, this motivation and this type of reasoning is certainlyu not specific to fascism, and can in no way be described as Nazism, in the latter there was no feeling of threatening, the jewish people were more a method to achieve a goal, a goal of power.

Oh contraire mon ami. The way the Basque nationalists keep referring back to Euskal Herria (territory), Euskera (Basque language) and the fact that, in their way of thinking, only Basque nationalists will be able to live happily in an independent Euskal Herria ("race") is very reminiscent of fascism.

I mean, Xavier Arzalluz (retired head of the EBB/PNV) himself has said, more than once that, in an independent Euskadi, "non-nationalist persons will be given the same status as Germans in Mallorca", meaning, no right to vote, no right to assembly, et cetera. Meaning they will be like Jews in a concentration camp. When a "true" Basque decides to do away with them, they will, with little to no consequence as, remember, those citizens will have "no rights".

Concerning the second. Euskadi at least, and probably Catalunya, don't really know for sure concerning Galicia, but there is a high possibility, that they all can be considered as nations. They have some form of self-government, now or in the past, and although this is not complete autonomy, this is not really necessary, also it is completely clear that the Basques are to be considered a people and at the very least have the right to a protection of their customs, language and everything that they view as being Basque, and have a right to a significant amount of autonomy

Like I said in a previous post: Galicia, Euskadi or Catalunya have NEVER been fully-recognized sovereign nations, states or countries. You can spin the terms as much as you want, but that is a fact, not an opinion.

 

[Barrus]

Oh contraire mon ami. The way the Basque nationalists keep referring back to Euskal Herria (territory), Euskera (Basque language) and the fact that, in their way of thinking, only Basque nationalists will be able to live happily in an independent Euskal Herria ("race") is very reminiscent of fascism.

I mean, Xavier Arzalluz (retired head of the EBB/PNV) himself has said, more than once that, in an independent Euskadi, "non-nationalist persons will be given the same status as Germans in Mallorca", meaning, no right to vote, no right to assembly, et cetera. Meaning they will be like Jews in a concentration camp. When a "true" Basque decides to do away with them, they will, with little to no consequence as, remember, those citizens will have "no rights".



Like I said in a previous post: Galicia, Euskadi or Catalunya have NEVER been fully-recognized sovereign nations, states or countries. You can spin the terms as much as you want, but that is a fact, not an opinion.

First part, this type of reasoning is very common in many independence struggles all over the world, not that reminscent to fascism, as it already existed prior to it. Many times it is the consequences of decades or century long struggle and oppression. Really to compare them to Nazis, or fascism in general is really downright offensive

Concerning the second part. There is a distinct difference between the term state/country and the term nation. A nation is a completely different term, especially in the method you use, with recognition and evrything, thus meaning in international law. You cannot take the term nation and state and just assume they mean one and the same thing. A nation might be a state, like a state might consist of solely one nation, but most current states are states that consist of more than one nation

 

[hrotha]

I'm not about to enter a debate on nationalism at a cycling forum, but I'm just going to advise everyone to take everything the Spanish nationalists here say with a grain of salt.

 

[Barrus]

I'm not about to enter a debate on nationalism at a cycling forum, but I'm just going to advise everyone to take everything the Spanish nationalists here say with a grain of salt.

I know, but I do not like to be pointed out as a liar or a spin doctor, it just doesn't sit right with me

Anyway back on topic it would be fantastic to see them go through the Basque country again, they have been talking about it for some time now.

 

[AtletiSK]

I don´t care about the nationalist debates here but as we all know País Vasco (the Basque Country) is a cycling-mad place so this would be a great news for the Vuelta

 

[Señor_Contador]

First part, this type of reasoning is very common in many independence struggles all over the world, not that reminscent to fascism, as it already existed prior to it. Many times it is the consequences of decades or century long struggle and oppression.

You’re mising pears and apples here. Few things:

1. Basque nationalism is barely 100 years old.

2. The father of Basque nationalism, Sabino Arana Goiri, was a very well-know proto-fascist a-hole.

3. The Basque Country has never, EVER, EVER had an independence struggle.

4. The Basque Country has never, EVER, EVER been given the status of colony.

5. Pro-independence polls show that only 33% of the Basque population want to secede from Spain.

Really to compare them to Nazis, or fascism in general is really downright offensive

That's your opinion, but fascist minds think alike you know.

Concerning the second part. There is a distinct difference between the term state/country and the term nation. A nation is a completely different term, especially in the method you use, with recognition and evrything, thus meaning in international law. You cannot take the term nation and state and just assume they mean one and the same thing. A nation might be a state, like a state might consist of solely one nation, but most current states are states that consist of more than one nation

You know EXACTLY what I mean. The Basque Country, Galicia or Catalonia have NEVER been sovereign entities. Call it what you like.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The 'Sorbenländer' in Lusatia have never been sovereign entities either, but the Sorbs are very much a different nation to the Germans, in whose territories their lands lie (they are Slavic, and the Germans are Germanic, with all of the cultural, historical, ethnic and linguistic divides implied by that, which is charged with great amounts of history and bitterness).

This may be due to a lack of accurate mapping of a Spanish term onto an English one or vice versa, but for all the Basques, their "nationality" in a political sense is Spanish or French (as your rights of citizenship are attached to the state in which you dwell or to which your bloodline or birthplace belong), but their "nationality" in a social, cultural or ethnic sense is Basque; they have cultural elements such as language and customs not related to that of the state in which they dwell.

German differentiates these with 'Staatsangehörigkeit' (lit. state belonging-ness) and 'Volksangehörigkeit' (lit. people belonging-ness), the first being your nation as in the state from which you come, and the second being your nation as in the ethnic group to which you belong (this is mostly designed for non nation-states, where there is more than one indigenous or long-term settled group).

 

[icefire]

If we can go back to the thread topic:

Wikipedia has a short summary of the Vuelta history and the difficulties of its successive organisers. From 1955 to 1978 it was organised by a Basque newspaper and it used to end in the Basque country. The last stage of 1978 was an ITT that had to be suspended due to barricades on the course. The day before, several riders had been attacked by demonstrators during the stage and at the finish. After those events, the organiser gave up and the Vuelta has never returned there since then, at least officially.

A few years ago there was an unofficial go through the Basque Country. The race went from Burgos to Santander through the easternmost pass in the mountain range between those two provinces. That road enters the Basque Country for 7 kms. To avoid the problem the official course was set across a different mountain pass to the west. Before starting the stage, race officials informed that there were some problems on the road and that they had to change the course. The road of the official course was open and there were reports that the problems claimed by the race officials didn't exist at all.

After last week's events when several people were arrested by the police for violent attacks against those who celebrated Spain's win in the football World Cup, I'm not sure it's a good idea to take an open event like the Vuelta there. They better watch it on TV and make for the region with the highest audience in Spain while riders are safe.

 

[khardung la]

I'm not about to enter a debate on nationalism at a cycling forum, but I'm just going to advise everyone to take everything the Spanish nationalists here say with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your comprehension about a big problem we have in Spain man. Obviously you have no idea and you like to make up your own version of History. Basque nationalism is 100 years old, it is racistic, fascistic and expansive, thousands of citizens are suffering because of basque nationalistic violence, and many people are under threat everyday. The place is unbearable.

Take it with a grain of salt if you want, don´t let solidarity or common sense to get in your way and keep cycling happily.

 

[Carl0880]

I think this discussion is really too much for most of us to understand that aren't from the area. The differences these two nationalities have are ingrained from years of hatred, political and social differences that are part of the local area. I imagine that most of us are not from these areas so we have experience the divide that has been created.

The only comparaable thing I can find to it is the the Southeast of the USA towards the government. There are still people that have built up hatred left over from the Civil War which was 150 years ago. Some areas you still see racial divide with the older communities still present from the 50s and 60s.

These type of difference can't only be truly felt if you have experienced the history and passed it down through generation.

 

[craig1985]

The reason why I used the term 'Pays Basque' as I had seen a comment by Bobby Julich years ago stating that races like 'Pays Basque are one of the few races I can win' (Bicycling Australia, early 2006), and I'm pretty sure it's on the back of the shorts of the Euskaltel riders. I guess in hindsight it does make sense that it is a French term because since then I've since learnt that 'Pays' is French for 'country' (or region).

 

[Señor_Contador]

Back to the subject please.

Although I am a Spaniard, I do not live in Spain and could care less if the country is blown to pieces.

Let's talk about Cycling please.

 

[sartoris]

Back to the subject please.

Although I am a Spaniard, I do not live in Spain and could care less if the country is blown to pieces.

Let's talk about Cycling please.

I am Spanish. I've lived in the Basque Country, but not anymore.

The Basque Country is a part of Spain. Many Basques feel Spanish, many feel Basque, others feel both in different degrees. The only reason why the Vuelta has not gone through the Basque Country in the last years is because the terrorists of ETA and it supporters have boycotted the race. So, it's an auspicious sign that the Vuelta a España is coming back to a place where cycling is lived with such a passion.