2012 Tour de France; Stage 1: Liège → Seraing (198km)

[BillytheKid]

I find it funny that people complain about Sagan wheelsucking. Cancellara is the one that should have learned by now when to stop if he doesn't want to give away victories: this year's San Remo, Flanders 2011, now today again. He needs to choose, either he pulls and risks losing the sprint or he stops and attacks again and risks be caught.

About Lotto working for Sagan: whose fault is that? It wasn't Liquigas that made them ride at the front with no purpose. It isn't the nicest way to win but it's completely fair.

I need to make my comments more clear, but I was only in agreement with Sagan's salute. I guess he was calling on his jersey. He could have thown his bike, and at least made it look a little more difficult.

Cancellara has long had this problem. He, like say an Ekimov, can only go for the long one. Maybe more doable in at end of a long classic, but that was on only in the last 10k.

 

[MonteZoncolan]

I find it funny that people complain about Sagan wheelsucking. Cancellara is the one that should have learned by now when to stop if he doesn't want to give away victories: this year's San Remo, Flanders 2011, now today again. He needs to choose, either he pulls and risks losing the sprint or he stops and attacks again and risks be caught.

About Lotto working for Sagan: whose fault is that? It wasn't Liquigas that made them ride at the front with no purpose. It isn't the nicest way to win but it's completely fair.

True that. Happens very often and has done for years. It's not new and like you say may not be the fairest way but there are no rules against it. He used his brain. Nowt wrong with that. Didn't Gerrans do the same at San Remo (not pull)? If so can't remember him getting so much stick.

 

[Froome19]

Most of his victories this year have all come from sprints. I think there are much more interesting riders out there based on riding style.

He is a rider is the Cancellara mold who wants to win with style, see Gent-Wevelgem but at the same time he is intelligent and will sprint when he can win.

We know your aversion to sprinters but he is unique in his ability to sprint and yet pull out magnificent climbing perfomances I must admit that I was bewitched by his mountains stage win in the TDS against Sagan and likewise when he won this year in TA, he is an entertainer but not one who sacrifices that for wins.. something it could be argued Canc does a bit..

 

[ggusta]

except for his arrogant victory salute.

I really think the only people who give that a second thought are people who post on message boards. I would assume the Cancellara's of the world have only one thought: Did I win or not? The answer was Not. Not what type of salute did the winner give. (Now had he turned to him and flipped him the bird or spat on him....that of course is a different matter)

Not winning is motivation to win at the next opportunity I would imagine. But it keeps threads like these alive and some other threads are very active over the matter as well.

I'm not insulting him. I'm saying that he rarely does things all by him self. He almost always relies on his or someone else's team. Just look at California, Suisse, Oman, etc. He regularly benefits from the work of other teams.

Only thing I can educate you on is reading I guess. Don't think I ever said something about poor sportsmanship - except for his arrogant victory salute.

Are you offer reeding lessonz, r thees fre?

But you persist on addressing Sagan's tactics with a tone of 'He has to use his team or someone else's tactics.' I suppose we could go on forever and I really have no interest in arguing. After all, there's no place for two semi-mature, high functioning ret@rds with nothing better to do devolving into a petty back and forth flaming of each other on a sacred message board!

 

[Fergoose]

Good stage, personal highlights were:
- seeing about half the peloton go for the intermediate sprint.
- Greenedge showing their face on debut.
- Paul Sherwin on commentary just about having a fit when he noticed Greipil was leading out Lotto and utterly failing to comprehend what sort of strategy that was (in fairness, I was a bit lost there too).
- Sagan's explanation for his celebration. I thought he was meant to be a personality free, smileless bore?
- A few of my less favoured riders having off days/bad luck (Leipheimer, Cobo, Vino, Froome all finding any GC ambitions taking a knock) - not a noble sentiment I know.

 

[Wergeland]

Classic Horner speak:

http://www.steephill.tv/players/720...board=tour-de-france&id=1715401725001&yr=2012

So Horner is a domestique for Zubeldia this tour? What's the point of that? Pretty sure Horner will finish way higher than Zubeldia GC, given the chance.

 

[Cancellator]

How did Horner manage to lose all that time?

 

[search]

So Horner is a domestique for Zubeldia this tour? What's the point of that? Pretty sure Horner will finish way higher than Zubeldia GC, given the chance.

he doesn't even mention Zubeldia, does he?!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

True that. Happens very often and has done for years. It's not new and like you say may not be the fairest way but there are no rules against it. He used his brain. Nowt wrong with that. Didn't Gerrans do the same at San Remo (not pull)? If so can't remember him getting so much stick.

Gerrans did exactly the same at Sanremo, and just like today, lots of people acknowledged the common sense of what he did, but voiced their distaste at him winning like that.

 

[Bushman]

am I the only one who thinks that it's a shame that cancellara has never given it a go in the ardennes? if this attack had come after 240 hilly km instead of 200 basically flat km, i doubt anyone could have followed the attack.

 

[burning]

Gerrans did exactly the same at Sanremo, and just like today, lots of people acknowledged the common sense of what he did, but voiced their distaste at him winning like that.

What was the general reaction when Nuyens won RVV 2011? I'm curious about that

 

[Froome19]

am I the only one who thinks that it's a shame that cancellara has never given it a go in the ardennes? if this attack had come after 240 hilly km instead of 200 basically flat km, i doubt anyone could have followed the attack.

It is just a matter of unfortunate circumstances and fatigue. He was unlucky last year in AMG with crashes etc and

He builds up to the classics with a whole load of races and by the time he is finished with Roubaix he is tired, similar to Boonen who wanted this year to race AMG but then pulled out as too tired..
Though I do agree he would be a good bet if he targeted them and he would make the racing so much more interesting.
He has stated his intention to go for Lombardia a couple of times but so far he hasnt shown all that much, as is difficult to do for someone like him who has so many objectives in one season and will be tired towards the end.

 

[roundabout]

Cancellara will get to try a hilly stage on Tuesday. Not quite classic length and not quite classic tough, but a good succession of climbs in the last 20km.

 

[Froome19]

Cancellara will get to try a hilly stage on Tuesday. Not quite classic length and not quite classic tough, but a good succession of climbs in the last 20km.

Indeed 4 climbs in 16km if I remember correctly, if ridden hard and with some wind as is possible in that are could cause some damage and may shed more of the favourites than even today managed...
Perfect terrain for Cancellara question for him is should he attack on the last climb to the finish or the penultimate one which is harder.
Whichever one it is it still leaves me to wonder how he will be able to avoid a repeat of what occured today.

 

[Bushman]

If he had a team that could set a killer pace in the finale he could win much more. One of his best weapons is his insane motor and endurance, so if the riders were actually tired when he attacks, I believe he could win using this tactic.

 

[Dedelou]

I have my view, you have yours. While I respect other views and never claim mine to be infallible, your answer confirms just my quote to which you responded.

Class or honor can't be bought, can't be injected or transfused. Either you have it or you don't.

So you will never find a post from myself where I call anybody else stupid or state that he has no clue. No way I'll let myself down to that level.

If you think wheelsucking to win is fine & smart, that's okay. It's your view. I accept it and would never respond to you like you did to me. That's the difference.

And no worries, I am used to be part of the minority who does not cheat or exploit or wheelsuck to just achieve wins or goals. I have learned in my life that unfortunately about 80% or even more of the people don't have a sense for this as they are just "eat as much as you can" guys - success at any price, at the whatever cost and collateral damage.

Ok, I went a bit far now, let's go back to cycling...

Viva il ciclismo | Vive le cyclisme!

There is only one true minority group in cycling: The race winners. As far as I can see, Sagan, like Fabian, Cavendish or the Cadels and others are really few and far between. The others generally follow or "wheelsuck" as you call it. Cycling is not a Don Quixote world, it is about winning race. Winning with " Panache" is the stuff that elevate the winners to the state of champions.

 

[Andre.J]

I'm very disappointed with Gilbert: what a horrible tactic as it seemed he never placed himself in a position to contend for the victory. Compared to last year he truly has nothing. Where was the help from BMC? The BMC team are still riding like idiots. He should have stayed with Lotto.

Truly disheartened,

Andre

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm very disappointed with Gilbert: what a horrible tactic as it seemed he never placed himself in a position to contend for the victory. Compared to last year he truly has nothing. Where was the help from BMC? The BMC team are still riding like idiots. He should have stayed with Lotto.

Truly disheartened,

Andre

He lost a lot of places because of the crash with the photographer.

 

[Kazistuta]

lmbo! Wiggo looks like a lego man with those colors and the lid on his head.

Ring a bell?

 

[Andre.J]

Thank you Pistolero...I didn't realize that..as I was hurrying to watch the Spain vs Italy final. I was amazed....I kept looking for him and couldn't see him in the final kilometers.

I started cursing at the TV....I was really hoping for Gilbert to bring it home.

 

[cineteq]

Gerrans did exactly the same at Sanremo, and just like today, lots of people acknowledged the common sense of what he did, but voiced their distaste at him winning like that.

That's BS. Gerrans won after a long downhill ride with Cancellara and Nibali, it wasn't a hill finish. Though, kudos to him for sticking with them.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

... That's quite strange, since Belgians should know all about profiting, and even more about forgetting about it later.
...

Belgians seem tho whine continuously about other rider's wheel sucking and profiting, while forgetting how their 'own' riders win races.

So even when he's hated by all Belgians, they still aren't calling him a wheel sucking ***** when mentioning his 1995 Tour stage win?

Btw was Bruyneel really that unlikeable when he was still a cyclist? As a DS it's another story, but before his 'retirement' I can't find anything strange about about him.

You seriously need to stop making comments about Belgians, because you have proven yourself to have no idea what you are talking about. Monfort is a punchy rider, De Gendt had a great GC preparation prior to the Giro, and "Belgians" should know about profitting... Like Zoetemelk i suppose. But judging by your comment that you saw the Bruyneel stagewin for the first time today, i assume you are not older than 20 years old and may not know how that is. So don't comment about stuff you are clueless about and please stop with stupid generalizations.

That said, the entire discussion about wheelsucking and profitting off of other teams is just as stupid. Everybody wants to win any way possible. The only thing you DON'T do, is ride after your own teammate like Gilbert did last year with Van Den Broeck unless bigger things are at stake. Nobody (except your fellow Dutchman Ryo here) had any problems how and when Boonen won this years Ronde van Vlaanderen. So i don't see the problem with what Sagan did. Maybe i should change my nationality?

And no, Bruyneel wasn't disliked as a rider. He was often in the same position as a rider you know so much about -Monfort- finds himself in now. Not a top GC contender, but an outsider for an honorary spot (top 10 potential), but often had to work for his team leader (Alex Zülle for instance) and forsake his own ambitions. A good TT'er who usually just couldn't follow the real favorites in the mountains, but wasn't too far behind (if he got to ride for his own GC).

 

[El Pistolero]

Bettini actually chased his own team-mate Garzelli in LBL 2002.

 

[greenedge]

Congrats to Sagan. Yes he did sit on Cancellara but even to follow him was good. A small pull would have helped though- but he still won in his first TDF- from now on he can go back to pulling.

Cancellara was super strong and EBH did well to close the gap.

Teams like BMC, Sky, Lotto, OGE and even Euskatel and Europcar were all present at the front which was good.

 

[greenedge]

Combined with Rogers earlier problem, Eddy's other priorities and Cav & Eisel's inability on this terrain, it's not surprising Wiggins was alone.

Eisel was doing quite a bit of work.