2012 Vuelta a España: Stage 4:Barakaldo-Estación de Valdezcaray 160.6 Km

[The Hitch]

The biggest scandal of the day is Mate getting the combativity award. I think he was about the first to get dropped when the climb started. Thankfully he rides for the right team.

Probably all the other contenders were already in their cars

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Regardless of who was to blame for the crash, I've been told I'm clutching at straws all season when pointing out Team Sky not waiting for crashes, attacking after incidents and so on. They acted at Paris-Nice like Movistar were evil for doing so, which makes them hypocrites.

If Team Sky did not cause the crash, I don't see anything wrong with what they did. I do, however, take issue with them doing so after spinning a yarn in public about another team (who happened to be the one that lost out today) being evil for the same thing.

You could argue that it's an eye for an eye... but then Sky had a bit of a rant about it in March, so Valverde can have a bit of a rant about it now.

 

[sagard]

...never mind that the spaniards probably will at some point start working together against Froome this will make it even more likely

They were going to do this either way. So I say no impact. Froome will either have the legs, or he won't.

 

[hrotha]

It's ridiculous (and hilarious) of a few of the Sky supporters here to accuse everyone else of having a pre-conceived opinion of what happened, when before they started posting here people were commenting on the video footage, saying they couldn't see anything one way or the other, gathering eyewitness accounts and carefully avoiding taking sides without having a better idea of what happened.

 

[Aguirre]

You mean like at the 2009 Dauphiné when Contador helped Valvpiti beat Evans? I see...nice sportsmanship too, eh!

what is wrong with that? could you explain me, BMC attitude today? or Argos pushing too? maybe BMC pays off Sky for Mur de Peguere incident?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I guess a lot of people just don't have any morals any more. Back in the days of Hinault this would have been dealt with a bit different. Puke on Sky for today, I puke on Greenedge for what they did in the Tour in the almost same circumstance.

By the way, why were BMC and Katusha helping? Makes no sense.

 

[Aguirre]

Just seen the interview with Unzue - he specifically blames Flecha for causing the crash.

Seeing as Flecha was right at the front, a long way clear of where the crash occured, it feels like his argument is that Sky caused the crash by trying to form eschelons, which is clearly nonsense.

Combined with the actual video evidence, this feels like emotional people looking for a satisfying target to blame - I can't blame them for it to be honest, but the people round here trying to treat cycling like WWE probably need to find a new hobby.

The only argument which holds any water against Sky is if they actually caused the crash through a specific dangerous move. Keeping going is not a problem given the number of times Movistar have done exactly that to other riders this season. Trying to form eschelons is no more of a dangerous manoeuver than attacking on a descent, which was how Movistar induced Levi's crash in PN (by their causal logic...).

did anyone posted the video? flecha is the man, he looks behind and continues

http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/...-se-ve-envuelto-caida-peloton-vuelta/1511048/

 

[webvan]

By the way, why were BMC and Katusha helping? Makes no sense.

Really...like getting the red jersey for Purito makes no sense, dude...as for BMC that was a bit more surprising but apparently they have high hopes for Morabito so the fewer the contenders for GC, the better for him, seems a bit farfetched.

By the way was it Menchov leading the pack for Purito when Bertie and Froome were ahead?

 

[Aguirre]

I guess a lot of people just don't have any morals any more. Back in the days of Hinault this would have been dealt with a bit different. Puke on Sky for today, I puke on Greenedge for what they did in the Tour in the almost same circumstance.

By the way, why were BMC and Katusha helping? Makes no sense.

katusha makes sense, but purito shows to be an hypocrit, he bennefit and then he apologizes. I think katusha was in dount in pushing or not, moral7ethical doubt.

but Bmc? Gilbert pushing as crazy? and the argos guy?

 

[Aguirre]

Really...like getting the red jersey for Purito makes no sense, dude...as for BMC that was a bit more surprising but apparently they have high hopes for Morabito so the fewer the contenders for GC, the better for him, seems a bit farfetched.

By the way was it Menchov leading the pack for Purito when Bertie and Froome were ahead?

morabito for GC, make me laugh.

 

[roundabout]

Really...like getting the red jersey for Purito makes no sense, dude...as for BMC that was a bit more surprising but apparently they have high hopes for Morabito so the fewer the contenders for GC, the better for him, seems a bit farfetched.

By the way was it Menchov leading the pack for Purito when Bertie and Froome were ahead?

probably Losada. Menchov last 9 minutes, I think

and the video is useless, don't think I've gathered anything from it that I could have missed when the crash happened live

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Really...like getting the red jersey for Purito makes no sense, dude...as for BMC that was a bit more surprising but apparently they have high hopes for Morabito so the fewer the contenders for GC, the better for him, seems a bit farfetched.

By the way was it Menchov leading the pack for Purito when Bertie and Froome were ahead?

Here is your answer smartie pants:

katusha makes sense, but purito shows to be an hypocrit, he bennefit and then he apologizes. I think katusha was in dount in pushing or not, moral7ethical doubt.

but Bmc? Gilbert pushing as crazy? and the argos guy?

Nevertheless a puking performance by 'the pack'.

And, really, Morabito?

Some people make me laugh, please, a little bit of realism would be nice. Don't condone these kind of actions by a rogue peloton. Friggin' Flecha looked behind him and saw guys ten meters behind him falling. That is bad.

 

[roundabout]

Hey, Morabito at least attacked on the last climb.

 

[Publicus]

With respect, I have not drawn conclusions, other than that my own viewing of the overhead replay showed no contact by a sky rider. If someone else can see it and points it out, I am open to a Sky rider having caused it.

As to the meaning of proximate cause, you clearly have a very loose definition of immediate. The proximate cause of this incident, to me, was either a touch of wheels, a clash of line, or an inattentive rider caught off guard. The attack is the broader context which made all of those potential causes of a crash come in to play.

No I don't have a loose definition of immediate. Just a fairly standard understanding of the legal concept "proximate cause". You are confusing the term proximate cause with the ACTUAL cause of the accident. Two different things.

EDIT: There's more to the concept than what I've laid out here (i.e., foreseeability etc.).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hey, Morabito at least attacked on the last climb.

Hey, that guy from Caja thougt he'd won!



Yesterday it was obvious to me the peloton was fed up with 'the sky train', after today they will hate them. As they should blame Rodriguez for his hypocrism.

 

[Publicus]

So if I'm riding along in the peloton next to Amets Txurruka and tell a really funny joke, Amets cracks up laughing and veers into another rider, causing more riders to fall behind him.

I'm the proximate cause of the crash, but is it my fault? This is surely the same as SKY attacking and then riders going down as a response to the attack? If one of the SKY riders actually touched the wheel that caused Valverde to go down, that's different, but essentially all we've got is that SKY attacked and then there was a crash behind, perhaps as a reaction to SKY's attack but not because SKY's attack was actually dangerous.

Yes. Proximate cause is not necessarily the ACTUAL cause (i.e., the immediate action causing the crash). Think of it this way, if you hadn't told Amets the joke, he wouldn't have laughed and veered into another rider. The laughing caused him to veer, but the veering into the other rider caused the accident. Not saying you are at fault (or responsible since these are actually negligence terms (torts for the English)), just that the term proximate cause shouldn't be confused with ACTUAL cause.

EDIT: Think of it this way, someone swerves on the road to avoid a cat and doesn't hit any other cars, but it causes the other cars to swerve and one driver actually hits another car. The swerving by one driver actually causes the accident, but (in this scenario), the original driver's swerving was the proximate cause (without going into the analysis).

 

[webvan]

probably Losada. Menchov last 9 minutes, I think

and the video is useless, don't think I've gathered anything from it that I could have missed when the crash happened live

Thanks, Menchov is really useless these days...how could he have lost his talent that quickly?

Yes the video adds nothing, Flecha is the one who launches the echelon so he certainly couldn't have made anyone fall directly. He does turn around but did he see anyone fall, who can say for sure? Everyone should just man up and race like pros not like little girls. Again, what good did it do to Ullrich to wait for Armstrong? He got accused of NOT waiting. Oh and was Unzue so vocal during the Chaingate, certainly not and that was far worse than what happened today.

 

[The Hitch]

Oh and was Unzue so vocal during the Chaingate, certainly not and that was far worse than what happened today.

Wtf was unzues card in chaingate? THe 3 riders were Rabo Euskaltel and Astana

And no matter how many times you try to get that under the radar, Schleck did exactly the same thing to all of them on stage 3, so it was justified.

 

[hrotha]

Yes the video adds nothing, Flecha is the one who launches the echelon so he certainly couldn't have made anyone fall directly. He does turn around but did he see anyone fall, who can say for sure? Everyone should just man up and race like pros not like little girls.

Come on... Flecha is not deaf or blind. You can legitimately argue the following sentence in your post, but don't give us that crap.

 

[Netserk]

This can _only_ be compared to 'Chaingate' IF Movistar was working hard at the front (attacking in the wind), and Piti then crashed.

 

[ferryman]

I don't particularly have a problem with Sky today, apart from the BS that they did not know Valverde had crashed.

It wasn't about Valverde for them anyway it was trying to get Contador isolated in an echelon. The timing of their push probably resulted in the crash but hey, that's racing and the crash was not directly caused by a Sky rider as far as I have seen.

Their decision was to hold back or continue with the day's game plan. They went for the latter. No big deal, apart from the bad press in Spain this will have on them

 

[Aguirre]

someone in dutch?

tempstra twittered, he mentions sky...

Dacht int wiel vd Movistar mannen wel goed te zitten.tot Sky ze omver reden.lagen ze daar plots opt asfalt en ik stond er(gelukkig)tussen.

 

[Arnout]

someone in dutch?

tempstra twittered, he mentions sky...

Dacht int wiel vd Movistar mannen wel goed te zitten.tot Sky ze omver reden.lagen ze daar plots opt asfalt en ik stond er(gelukkig)tussen.

Theyoungest and I translated this a few pages back. Basically he thought he would be ok in the wheel of Movistar, but Sky crashed into them, they crashed, he could stay upright but was delayed.

 

[Richeypen]

I don't particularly have a problem with Sky today, apart from the BS that they did not know Valverde had crashed.

It wasn't about Valverde for them anyway it was trying to get Contador isolated in an echelon. The timing of their push probably resulted in the crash but hey, that's racing and the crash was not directly caused by a Sky rider as far as I have seen.

Their decision was to hold back or continue with the day's game plan. They went for the latter. No big deal, apart from the bad press in Spain this will have on them

This.



.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't particularly have a problem with Sky today, apart from the BS that they did not know Valverde had crashed.

It wasn't about Valverde for them anyway it was trying to get Contador isolated in an echelon. The timing of their push probably resulted in the crash but hey, that's racing and the crash was not directly caused by a Sky rider as far as I have seen.

Their decision was to hold back or continue with the day's game plan. They went for the latter. No big deal, apart from the bad press in Spain this will have on them

Your first paragraph I agree with.

I think there's more than the bad press in Spain that will result though. Riders like Hansen and Terpstra have commented on it, and it sounds like they annoyed more than just Movistar. Whether or not they were actually to blame, they're the ones being held responsible, so they may find few allies later in the race.