2012 Vuelta. The Return of the King.

[LaFlorecita]

Right.
And I just wanted to underline a bit that Voeckler is not average rider. If he focused on GTs in the fullness of time, he would achieve Moreau's level, for instance. In general, I think, there have been significant changes in the peloton over the last 4-5 years, looking at Voeckler, Froome and the others. Everyone got, fighting for the GC is not scary.

airstream, as a poster you're gaining more and more of my respect. Now only if you would change your userpic..

 

[Publicus]

Right.
And I just wanted to underline a bit that Voeckler is not average rider. If he focused on GTs in the fullness of time, he would achieve Moreau's level, for instance. In general, I think, there have been significant changes in the peloton over the last 4-5 years, looking at Voeckler, Froome and the others. Everyone got, fighting for the GC is not scary.

Ok. I agree that they were better at the TdF, but for a variety of factors we don't need to rehash, which had a rather profound affect on Contador's performance.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Right.
And I just wanted to underline a bit that Voeckler is not average rider. If he focused on GTs in the fullness of time, he would achieve Moreau's level, for instance. In general, I think, there have been significant changes in the peloton over the last 4-5 years, looking at Voeckler, Froome and the others. Everyone got, fighting for the GC is not scary.

But even so, all things being equal, Christophe Moreau should not be finishing ahead of Alberto Contador in a GT either. And that break that Voeckler had is not of the Porte-Arroyo level and a long way from the Pereiro level; he gained 3'54" that day. Without it he would still have finished 7th (including Contador in the results).

All things being equal as I meant it, was all riders coming to the race with ideal preparation. Winning a 21-stage, 7-MTF Grand Tour is not ideal preparation, as has been shown by other Giro winners' TDF performances in recent years - Menchov 65th in the 2009 Tour, Basso 31st in the 2010 edition - and the effect the Giro had on other riders from it could be seen in the Vuelta, as almost all the riders who had competed at the top in the Giro were below par even then. Clearly, judging Contador against the Schlecks and Evans based on the 2011 Tour is not a fair representation of all four at peak form, as one was clearly not. The top 3 at the Tour were extremely strong, but beyond that, the field is pretty lacking; Basso was not at peak form after injury in training, Sánchez was one of the prime animators but lost time in week 1 and also lost out due to the TTT, but beyond that? You have Thomas Voeckler who had never been at the business end of a GT before, Damiano Cunego who had not been at the business end of a GT in years, Tom Danielson who had not been at the business end of a GT in years and who looked like never coming close to delivering the results merited by his enormous talent. Everybody else who you would expect to have come between the Schlecks/Evans/Contador and the likes of Cunego and Danielson, crashed out.

 

[The Hitch]

The top 3 at the Tour were extremely strong.

Frank was weak. He may have been strong by his standards, but on Alpe he was given the TDF on a plate much like his mortal enemy Sastre 3 years earlier.

Sastre, who Frank cries about, was good enough to take that opportunity. Frank who had had a free ride both on the monster stage the day before, and up the telegraphe that very day, was too weak.

Sastre and Frank had the same moment of truth. But when all the dust was settled and all the smoke was cleared Sastre was a champion. Frank failed.

Weakness. Its the opposite of strength.

 

[airstream]

Frank was weak. He may have been strong by his standards, but on Alpe he was given the TDF on a plate much like his mortal enemy Sastre 3 years earlier.

Sastre, who Frank cries about, was good enough to take that opportunity. Frank who had had a free ride both on the monster stage the day before, and up the telegraphe that very day, was too weak.

Sastre and Frank had the same moment of truth. But when all the dust was settled and all the smoke was cleared Sastre was a champion. Frank failed.

Weakness. Its the opposite of strength.

When Frank was stronger? By his standarts, he rode really strongly at the Tour. Yeh, it is his constant feature: when he needs a lot, rides badly. Alpe-d'Huez twice and Mont Ventoux.

 

[Forunculo]

When Frank was stronger? By his standarts, he rode really strongly at the Tour. Yeh, it is his constant feature: when he needs a lot, rides badly. Alpe-d'Huez twice and Mont Ventoux.

Then he was lucky about those crashed/injured/tired riders because of that he was in the podium. And more important the 1-2 punch is a joke and it must be Andy the team leader and Frank his domestique as I expect Johan Bruyneel thinks.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Frank was weak. He may have been strong by his standards, but on Alpe he was given the TDF on a plate much like his mortal enemy Sastre 3 years earlier.

Sastre, who Frank cries about, was good enough to take that opportunity. Frank who had had a free ride both on the monster stage the day before, and up the telegraphe that very day, was too weak.

Sastre and Frank had the same moment of truth. But when all the dust was settled and all the smoke was cleared Sastre was a champion. Frank failed.

Weakness. Its the opposite of strength.

I think Frank had even better chances than Sastre. He was the only rider alongside De Gendt not to have done anything. Evans was pulling up Galibier and Telegraphe, Sanchez was going like crazy downhill, Contador and Andy were in the break whole day, Voeckler was going all alone. And still he blew all his chances.

 

[The Hitch]

I think Frank had even better chances than Sastre. He was the only rider alongside De Gendt not to have done anything. Evans was pulling up Galibier and Telegraphe, Sanchez was going like crazy downhill, Contador and Andy were in the break whole day, Voeckler was going all alone. And still he blew all his chances.

yep he had it made for him better than Sastre. But just not good enough.

 

[42x16ss]

Frank's best move would be to lose a big chunk of time early and spend the mountain stages up the road either in a search for KOM points, or to help Andy when the going gets really tough.

Too bad that isn't the way The Hog likes to work, because Frank could have an incredible TdF riding like that

 

[DenisMenchov]

Frank's best move would be to lose a big chunk of time early and spend the mountain stages up the road either in a search for KOM points, or to help Andy when the going gets really tough.

Too bad that isn't the way The Hog likes to work, because Frank could have an incredible TdF riding like that

I never thought of it like that, and maybe that is the way Frank should ride, but last year I think Nisan thought that is better to have 2 cards to play.

 

[42x16ss]

Last year Leopard Trek really only had Fuglsang, Monfort and Gerdemann to support in the high mountains. This year they also have Horner, Kloden and Zubeldia - a much stronger combination, even if they are getting on. If The Hog can think outside the TTT tactic on the mountain stages RadioShleck can blast this Tour apart...

 

[The Hitch]

Leopard Trek really only had Fuglsang, Monfort and Gerdemann to support in the high mountains.

Don't forget super domestique stuart ogrady

 

[42x16ss]

Don't forget super domestique stuart ogrady

OH YEAH! I forgot about O'Grady - GreenEdge's climbing extraordinaire

 

[the asian]

I just want Contador to win the Vuelta & the 2013 Tour so he can shut up his critics and the LA/A Schleck fanboys.

 

[42x16ss]

I just want Contador to win the Vuelta & the 2013 Tour so he can shut up his critics and the LA/A Schleck fanboys.

You aren't the only one. I suspect that the 2011 Giro is going to look like a rest day recovery ride compared Bertie's Vuelta comeback.

 

[airstream]

Klodi for the win! Without Contador they can hit the top of Mende 5-10 best together or at least Andreas will lose a little bit. TT is his.

 

[Froome19]

Last year Leopard Trek really only had Fuglsang, Monfort and Gerdemann to support in the high mountains. This year they also have Horner, Kloden and Zubeldia - a much stronger combination, even if they are getting on. If The Hog can think outside the TTT tactic on the mountain stages RadioShleck can blast this Tour apart...

Yeh but that line up should have in truth done much better than it did, especially due to Monfort and Fuglsang's to10's in TDS, yet Fuglsang and Gerdemann totally flopped in the tour and so Leopard were not able to do what they intended and destroy in the mountains. Instead they had to revert to Voigt's heroics.
This year the same thing could happen especially seeing how Radoishack also flopped in the tour last year, yet if it doesn't and everyone is on form than there should be a total decimation in the mountains.
Also do you think Voigt will get picked for the tour team, technially he shoulsn't but he was their standout performer last year and deserves recognition.

 

[theyoungest]

OH YEAH! I forgot about O'Grady - GreenEdge's climbing extraordinaire

O'Grady, the best climber on Greenedge... you might very well be right

 

[trevim]

Don't forget super domestique stuart ogrady

And Voigt who was the best domestique in the stage to Luz (or Plateau?) dropping Monfort and Gerdemann at least

 

[Publicus]

You aren't the only one. I suspect that the 2011 Giro is going to look like a rest day recovery ride compared Bertie's Vuelta comeback.

Ok, I laughed out loud at this one (in a good way).

And Voigt who was the best domestique in the stage to Luz (or Plateau?) dropping Monfort and Gerdemann at least

Jens definitely earned his salary at the TdF last year.

 

[airstream]

I heard, natively the team plan was to let Jacob go at the bottom of Luz-Ardiden, using his high position in GC, and see how Evans and Contador react. But it failed for obvious reason. Generally Gerdemann and Fuglsang dwelled in vacuum of apathy in the Tour and didn't justify the high confidence. Apparently it was a starting point. Becca got the team need even more reinforcement.

sorry for offtopic, but the range of discussed topics is quite wide in this thread.

 

[Granville57]

Weakness. Its the opposite of strength.

LOL

Wait, weakness is nothing to laugh about. The 2012 Vuelta will be a parade of weakness in the wake of alˈβerto kontaˈðor βeˈlasko. It will be a sad and painful three weeks. Lungs will burn and legs will cry out in agony. The same will happen outside of this forum.

But this epic moment in sports history does raise another significant issue:

Hitch, I would never expect you to approach the Giro as merely "training" as some slothful riders have been rumored to do in the past, but I implore you to consider the greater good and leave something in the tank for the opening threads of la Vuelta. If you haven't considered it yet, you may want to establish and reserve the first several posts at this time in order to avoid any deliberate attempts at interference.

To paraphrase the Godfather:

"I want you to use all your powers and all your skills. I don't want his fans to see him this way. Look how they massacred my boy."

In The Hitch I Trust.

 

[greenedge]

Frank's best move would be to lose a big chunk of time early and spend the mountain stages up the road either in a search for KOM points, or to help Andy when the going gets really tough.

Too bad that isn't the way The Hog likes to work, because Frank could have an incredible TdF riding like that

He will lose chunks of time in the ITT then the plan to have co-leaders shall be discarded.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Why are all you people talking about the Tour in the Vuelta thread?

 

[BillytheKid]

I haven't look at the profiles until today, but I've heard the buzz. Insane the amount uphill finishes in the mountains. Maybe just what the Veulta needed. I always hope for for a competitive race, but it could be enough time is taken on the first few mountain stages by Berto that he can sit wheel until he seals it on a third.