2015 Giro d'Italia Stage 15: Marostica–Madonna di Campiglio

[Jelantik]

Re: Re:

Well it seems to me that you're the one who's not following cycling, at least not for long, or you simply don't understand it.
If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.
Contador went after Landa exactly because it was him, he decided to marked them both, because they're both threats in the GC, as you can see, one is 2nd the other is 4th
Contador did attacked, in case you didn't noticed, it was counter move to Landa's first attack, when he saw that Aru is dropped, and he eased off only when he saw he can't drop Landa, he didn't want to risk a counter move
Landa attack accomplished little in terms of GC, i agree, he should of attacked way earlier, but probably his team didn't let him. But he accomplished much in terms of self confidence, he knows now that he can fight with Contador in mountains, and if Martinelli is smart he will play on both cards, him and Aru, cause this is the only way they can hope to beat Contador. If they ride strictly for Aru, it's a game over
Landa is not a one-hit wonder, that's exactly why I think you don't following cycling much, he was always a talented climber, back in his Euskaltel days, he just hasn't proven himself in GT's till now.
And so what if everyone sees it, you think Contador didn't knew that. What if for example Contador goes, Aru can't follow, but Landa can, what would you do if you are Martinelli, what would you say? My guess is that you would say to Landa to pace Aru and minimize the damage, because Aru is freaking leader! The road decides who the leader is. What about Richie Porte, he's the leader in Sky, why didn't Konig paced him today? By your logic he should

The funny thing is that I don't disagree with some of the things that are being said, it's that you're talking as though I disagree. Huh?

First of all, if you were a genuine cycling fan, that there are multiple cases of domestiques being stronger than their leaders (Delgado/Indurain, LeMond/Hinault, Lance/Contador, Froome/Wiggins, et cetera) wouldn't come as a surprise. Or that changing leaders in mid-competition is BAAAAAAAD idea. Especially when one is a proven leader (Aru impressed many in last year's Vuelta, Landa hasn't done anything).

Now, if you think it would be a good idea to change the Italian leader of a team in an Italian cycling competition just because the domestique happened to go faster in ONE frigging climb (meanwhile he got eaten alive in the ITT the day before,) pardon me for being condescending, but you understand neither cycling nor real life. Sometimes rational human beings say really delusional things.

And do me a favor, next time watch your grammar and split up your paragraphs so that I understand your line of logic. You go from cycling to making tomato soup in a period and a comma.

You questioned Landa's attack today, said he exposed his leader, well I disagree. Landa did the right thing, although he should of tried earlier. The idea was good, multiple attacks on Contador. Landa is by no means guilty or stupid as you said because his leader couldn't follow.

And no, I don't think they should change the leader. I think they should try with Landa with free role, trying from far out, although now is maybe too late, Contador now knows he's stronger than his leader.

And one more thing, you mentioned Lance/Contador example in 2009. Tell me who ended higher in GC, leader or domestique?

Maybe we are all think if Landa should attack earlier. Clearly Astana is in dilemma. On one hand, they want to attack contador with the duo Landa/Aru. Unfortunately, every time Landa attacked, Aru was dropped and not until Contador/Landa slowed down where he can get back. Today might not be the gradient that contador wanted. But remember 2014 Vuelta where Contador couldn't ditch Purito and Valverde either when they had a chance to drop froome? On the next mountain finish stage (forget what stage), Contador was the benefactor of Froome attack because Froome helped him drop Purito and Valverde (even Riis said their best scenario plan was for Froome to attack). And when they were closed to the top, Contador dropped Froome. So for contador, knowing that Landa is strong, he could just hitch hike Landa to drop Aru. Then if he has the leg, he can drop Landa. That's why is a dilemma for Astana. Contador used Froome at Vuelta 2014 to drop the other rivals, then when he is done, he dropped his companion.

I don't think TS boys will let Landa goes that far either. So his chances might be just like today, on the last climb. Because we have seen how contador used Froome's attack to drop his rival If Astana plays his card wrong, they might just drop Aru and gave a free ride to Contador via Landa.

 

[Mr.White]

It's tricky I agree. Landa should only go if Contador doesn't follow, but that will hardly happen after today

 

[Mongolian Mayhem]

Contador said it himself: Aru not as good as Landa TODAY, so he let him go saving energy and chilled with Aru and then pipped him at the line for four seconds. I think Conti could have matched Landa for the stage, but at a certain energy expense for the week.

Sometimes defence is the best offense...

 

[Lambanna]

Re:

My reading of the stage was that Contador
a) would have liked to win the stage,
b) realized that it would be very difficult given how well Landa was riding,
c) decided that he would have had to go very far into the red and potentially crack, so victory in the stage was far from assured,
d) checked Aru's temperature in a brief conversation,
e) decided that he was stronger than Aru but maybe not quite as strong as Landa,
f) knew that Landa wasn't a huge threat today, since Landa would be loath to drop his Italian teammate, Aru
f) given the situation, he would settle for gaining time on Aru and ignoring a few seconds lost to a rival that is almost 5 minutes down on GC.

So, I thought Landa was stronger today, but his time gain was inconsequential at this point.

Agreed with all the above, it's one area where I believe Contador is always a step ahead of his rivals, always sizing up opportunities and thinking smart on the bike, Nibali does to a certain extent, Froome does to a lesser extent and Quintana is developing this side with experience ( stelvio last year showed he is pretty good at this), to be fair to others outside of this though in grand tours they are normally only able to focus on trying to keep pace with the big four rather than thinking of other matters! Loving this giro but have to admit my mind does wander ahead to the tour and can't help but think this tour (if all 4 of the guys I mention stay healthy) could be talked about for years to come with battles that lie ahead in it, apologies for jumping the gun!

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

I disagree. The Giro is cooked. No need to argue about it. Anything that Astana did was not going to work anyway. And Aru was weaker so no need to do anything out of the ordinary but to win the stage. I saw nothing to tell me that they were going to dispatch Contador. Nothing.

Of course you saw nothing of the sort, because there was NO WAY what they were doing could possibly succeed in putting serious time on Contador.

They could have isolated Contador (which they did) and then launched Landa and a domestique on the false flat. But that would have implied taking at least some risks.

It's sad enough that teams can't even conceive of a tactic that's not "follow wheels until the last 5 km", but when fans and journalists do it too it breaks my heart.

100% agreed.

Astana is so strong yet they don't try anything.

Ffs send Landa up the road early. Let him attack on the penultimate climb, try tomger a teammate in the breakaway to help him.
Trrry something. There seems to be just 1 rider that tries that stuff and that's Contador if he needs to do it atleast.

What are they afraid of? That Landa loses his top position? Oh no! Not my 3rd position for a possible win...nooo.

Blergh.

 

[Lambanna]

Re: Re:

If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.

Probably worth noting that Aru put 1:13 into Landa in the TT. Don't know if Landa was going full on in the TT, but still. Really hard to be switching leaders in the middle of a race. You have to pick your leader and support him unless there is a fairly dramatic difference. Tactics during the race will give domestiques more apparent advantage. There is also the pressure factor. How would Landa handle the media and race pressure as the leader? He might be great, he might not. There is no reason at this point to change the plan, that would just be dumb.

If Aru shows continued weakness, and Landa starts to look like he could actually win, then sure, go for the change. The latter has definitely NOT happened yet. Today they did pretty well, making Contador chase both guys. The problem is that he was chasing both guys because he wanted the win, not because he fears Landa who was 4:55 behind entering the stage today. How exactly is Landa going to get back 4:55 or wherever he sits today (a few seconds less, but I'm not looking it up).

Bailing on your chosen leader in the middle of a race is not something to be taken lightly. Internal team motivation, trust, focus and a host of other reasons make it something not to be done without a very, very strong reason.

Easy for fans just to point at who looks strongest on the day. Not easy or smart to make such a dramatic change to a team when the outcome is very much in doubt. Who is going to ride for a DS who makes such fickle decisions?

Do you know if Landa is out of contract at the end of this year, just curious if he is what his possible plans could be, is he at the stage where he could be a team leader for movistar in grand tours Quintana does not partake in with valverde getting older. I know it's a very small sample size but would love to see Aru and Landa compare against each other where both are leaders

 

[Kwibus]

While reading this thread I'm amazed gy the people that said Landa rode a crap TT yesterday or took it easy yesterday.

For Landa standards he rode a verrrry good TT yesterday. So im convinced he went all out and actually rode the best TT of his life.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.

Probably worth noting that Aru put 1:13 into Landa in the TT. Don't know if Landa was going full on in the TT, but still. Really hard to be switching leaders in the middle of a race. You have to pick your leader and support him unless there is a fairly dramatic difference. Tactics during the race will give domestiques more apparent advantage. There is also the pressure factor. How would Landa handle the media and race pressure as the leader? He might be great, he might not. There is no reason at this point to change the plan, that would just be dumb.

If Aru shows continued weakness, and Landa starts to look like he could actually win, then sure, go for the change. The latter has definitely NOT happened yet. Today they did pretty well, making Contador chase both guys. The problem is that he was chasing both guys because he wanted the win, not because he fears Landa who was 4:55 behind entering the stage today. How exactly is Landa going to get back 4:55 or wherever he sits today (a few seconds less, but I'm not looking it up).

Bailing on your chosen leader in the middle of a race is not something to be taken lightly. Internal team motivation, trust, focus and a host of other reasons make it something not to be done without a very, very strong reason.

Easy for fans just to point at who looks strongest on the day. Not easy or smart to make such a dramatic change to a team when the outcome is very much in doubt. Who is going to ride for a DS who makes such fickle decisions?

Do you know if Landa is out of contract at the end of this year, just curious if he is what his possible plans could be, is he at the stage where he could be a team leader for movistar in grand tours Quintana does not partake in with valverde getting older. I know it's a very small sample size but would love to see Aru and Landa compare against each other where both are leaders

Last year of contract, but as he is just showing the performances of his life I doubt that Astana will not keep him. On the other hand his TT is truly awful so it will take a lot if it's even possible to mend that.

 

[HelloDolly]

Mr No-Balls you are convinced my reading of today stage is some dastardly dream of mine to see a SKY bot wish fulfilled in July with Contador not being up to the standard of SKY ...this is not true ...what I want in July is for Contador & Froome,Nibali & Quintana to all be in top form and for all cycling to see a tightly fought battle...My use of the word 'amasing' was in the context of an amasing turn events not as 'isn't it wonderful' as you perceive I question fanboys because I don't like the one world view of a race so it fit perceived preferences and the gleeful knocking of opponents on here

Anyway back to the Giro......Maybe Aru should attack ....and sacrifice himself for Landa who could over the period of the week claw back over 4 minutes .....at least its a plan

 

[cycladianpirate]

Re: Re:

I disagree. The Giro is cooked. No need to argue about it. Anything that Astana did was not going to work anyway. And Aru was weaker so no need to do anything out of the ordinary but to win the stage. I saw nothing to tell me that they were going to dispatch Contador. Nothing.

Of course you saw nothing of the sort, because there was NO WAY what they were doing could possibly succeed in putting serious time on Contador.

They could have isolated Contador (which they did) and then launched Landa and a domestique on the false flat. But that would have implied taking at least some risks.

It's sad enough that teams can't even conceive of a tactic that's not "follow wheels until the last 5 km", but when fans and journalists do it too it breaks my heart.

100% agreed.

Astana is so strong yet they don't try anything.

Ffs send Landa up the road early. Let him attack on the penultimate climb, try tomger a teammate in the breakaway to help him.
Trrry something. There seems to be just 1 rider that tries that stuff and that's Contador if he needs to do it atleast.

What are they afraid of? That Landa loses his top position? Oh no! Not my 3rd position for a possible win...nooo.

Blergh.

That's easier said than done. You can't keep switching leaders around based on who performed better today. Astana clearly think that Aru still has a chance (I don't), but that's their call to make. What do you do in that situation? Let Landa drag Contador away from Aru and let him take time on your second-placed rider or keep your powder dry in the hope that something will happen later on?

I'm obviously in a minority of one, but I like the way that Astana have, at least, kept trying to win the race and not just given up (like a certain team whose name starts with and S and ends with a Y)

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: 2015 Giro d'Italia Stage 15: Marostica–Madonna di Campig

To everyone who doesn't want to understand it. If Landa had given everything after he dropped aru he would have ridden to the top together with contador. In that case landa finishes at the same time as alberto does and aru is probably one minute behind. Now look what really happened. Landa saw that aru couldn't follow so he just "wheelsucked" contador until aru closed the gap. At the end Landa even won the stage by a few seconds and Aru only lost 4 seconds on contador. The only mistake is that he didn't attack earlier but to attack although you see your captain cannot follow is nonsense. The point is that Aru is placed much better in the gc so if Landa doesn't care about him and just does whatever is the best for him he might overtake aru but never contador. They have to work together, probably Landa should have attacked much earlier and if contador wouldn't follow he could drive away while aru would wait for alberto to follow his teammate. If contador does so aru is maybe a little bit stronger in the last kilometres and so he can distance him (although today aru probably was to weak to distance contador even if he would have made all the work on the climb). Of course there isn't a guarantee that this would work but you have to take risks if you want to beat someone like contador.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Contador isn't actually that strong in this Giro. He will be destroyed in July.

You will look so stupid soon

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

We still don't know whether Contador is the strongest climber in the Giro. This Mikel Landa guy is going super strong.

Landa didn't exactly put in a sterling effort yesterday.

Landa is a shocking time trialist so that's not a surprise. He does however appear to be the strongest climber in this race which must be embarrassing for Contador and his fans.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

We still don't know whether Contador is the strongest climber in the Giro. This Mikel Landa guy is going super strong.

Landa didn't exactly put in a sterling effort yesterday.

Landa is a shocking time trialist so that's not a surprise. He does however appear to be the strongest climber in this race which must be embarrassing for Contador and his fans.

Only if Contador went all out, which he himself and his fans know to be untrue just wait, he might never show it this race, but he'll show it at the Tour and he'll crush yer boy Froome

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

We still don't know whether Contador is the strongest climber in the Giro. This Mikel Landa guy is going super strong.

Landa didn't exactly put in a sterling effort yesterday.

Landa is a shocking time trialist so that's not a surprise. He does however appear to be the strongest climber in this race which must be embarrassing for Contador and his fans.

Only if Contador went all out, which he himself and his fans know to be untrue just wait, he might never show it this race, but he'll show it at the Tour and he'll crush yer boy Froome

Of course he went all out! He tried to drop Landa and his fellow Spaniard responded easily. Imagine what will happen when he is up against Quintana, Nibali and Froome in July. It will be a bloodbath.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Of course he went all out! He tried to drop Landa and his fellow Spaniard responded easily. Imagine what will happen when he is up against Quintana, Nibali and Froome in July. It will be a bloodbath.

JRanton, did you stop watching the Vuelta last year when it became evident your Froomey boy would not win? You might want to watch stage 16 and 20 on youtube, because his attacks there looked way different than the minor changes of pace today. I have been following this guy for years, I know what he looks like when he attacks and I did not see that today

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Of course he went all out! He tried to drop Landa and his fellow Spaniard responded easily. Imagine what will happen when he is up against Quintana, Nibali and Froome in July. It will be a bloodbath.

JRanton, did you stop watching the Vuelta last year when it became evident your Froomey boy would not win? You might want to watch stage 16 and 20 on youtube, because his attacks there looked way different than the minor changes of pace today. I have been following this guy for years, I know what he looks like when he attacks and I did not see that today

And you should watch the entire Tour De France 2013 to see what will happen to Contador in July. Hopefully Majka is given leadership.

 

[JRanton]

Re:

When Movistar said Intxausti and Izaguirre would be there leaders for the Giro, they actually meant Amador and Visconti.

An easy mistake to make, I'm sure you'll agree.

It's funny because you would also think that Anton, Herrada and Fernandez would be their plan c, d and e. But no, their 6th and 7th strongest riders on paper could both finish in the top 10. Crazy!

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

Of course he went all out! He tried to drop Landa and his fellow Spaniard responded easily. Imagine what will happen when he is up against Quintana, Nibali and Froome in July. It will be a bloodbath.

JRanton, did you stop watching the Vuelta last year when it became evident your Froomey boy would not win? You might want to watch stage 16 and 20 on youtube, because his attacks there looked way different than the minor changes of pace today. I have been following this guy for years, I know what he looks like when he attacks and I did not see that today

And you should watch the entire Tour De France 2013 to see what will happen to Contador in July. Hopefully Majka is given leadership.

This guy won't be around in the last week, skyfans always run when their boys gets ***.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

We still don't know whether Contador is the strongest climber in the Giro. This Mikel Landa guy is going super strong.

Landa didn't exactly put in a sterling effort yesterday.

Landa is a shocking time trialist so that's not a surprise. He does however appear to be the strongest climber in this race which must be embarrassing for Contador and his fans.

Only if Contador went all out, which he himself and his fans know to be untrue just wait, he might never show it this race, but he'll show it at the Tour and he'll crush yer boy Froome

Of course he went all out! He tried to drop Landa and his fellow Spaniard responded easily. Imagine what will happen when he is up against Quintana, Nibali and Froome in July. It will be a bloodbath.

I am really no contador fan but he definitely didn't go all out. I have already seen contador suffering some times, maybe you haven't, but believe me a contador who gives all he has doesn't look like todays contador.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

We still don't know whether Contador is the strongest climber in the Giro. This Mikel Landa guy is going super strong.

Landa didn't exactly put in a sterling effort yesterday.

Landa is a shocking time trialist so that's not a surprise. He does however appear to be the strongest climber in this race which must be embarrassing for Contador and his fans.

Landa is strong but a lot of good it does him,Astana and their leader, him being 4+ minutes behind in gc and his ability to consistently ride at this level yet unproven. Also one stage performance shouldn't be enough to determine who is or will be the strongest. Obviously you're grasping at straws to gain some pathetic level of pleasure out of the potential outcome of this Giro gc.

 

[blaxland]

contador just rode the perfect stage,gained a little time on aru and showed everyone in the race just who is the boss.also note the rides of konig,trofimov and ofcourse landa,maybe a future winner there?dissapointing for porte,uran and chaves.contador will go into defence mode from here on in.lets go the double"

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Well it seems to me that you're the one who's not following cycling, at least not for long, or you simply don't understand it.
If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.
Contador went after Landa exactly because it was him, he decided to marked them both, because they're both threats in the GC, as you can see, one is 2nd the other is 4th
Contador did attacked, in case you didn't noticed, it was counter move to Landa's first attack, when he saw that Aru is dropped, and he eased off only when he saw he can't drop Landa, he didn't want to risk a counter move
Landa attack accomplished little in terms of GC, i agree, he should of attacked way earlier, but probably his team didn't let him. But he accomplished much in terms of self confidence, he knows now that he can fight with Contador in mountains, and if Martinelli is smart he will play on both cards, him and Aru, cause this is the only way they can hope to beat Contador. If they ride strictly for Aru, it's a game over
Landa is not a one-hit wonder, that's exactly why I think you don't following cycling much, he was always a talented climber, back in his Euskaltel days, he just hasn't proven himself in GT's till now.
And so what if everyone sees it, you think Contador didn't knew that. What if for example Contador goes, Aru can't follow, but Landa can, what would you do if you are Martinelli, what would you say? My guess is that you would say to Landa to pace Aru and minimize the damage, because Aru is freaking leader! The road decides who the leader is. What about Richie Porte, he's the leader in Sky, why didn't Konig paced him today? By your logic he should

The funny thing is that I don't disagree with some of the things that are being said, it's that you're talking as though I disagree. Huh?

First of all, if you were a genuine cycling fan, that there are multiple cases of domestiques being stronger than their leaders (Delgado/Indurain, LeMond/Hinault, Lance/Contador, Froome/Wiggins, et cetera) wouldn't come as a surprise. Or that changing leaders in mid-competition is BAAAAAAAD idea. Especially when one is a proven leader (Aru impressed many in last year's Vuelta, Landa hasn't done anything).

Now, if you think it would be a good idea to change the Italian leader of a team in an Italian cycling competition just because the domestique happened to go faster in ONE frigging climb (meanwhile he got eaten alive in the ITT the day before,) pardon me for being condescending, but you understand neither cycling nor real life. Sometimes rational human beings say really delusional things.

And do me a favor, next time watch your grammar and split up your paragraphs so that I understand your line of logic. You go from cycling to making tomato soup in a period and a comma.

You questioned Landa's attack today, said he exposed his leader, well I disagree. Landa did the right thing, although he should of tried earlier. The idea was good, multiple attacks on Contador. Landa is by no means guilty or stupid as you said because his leader couldn't follow.

And no, I don't think they should change the leader. I think they should try with Landa with free role, trying from far out, although now is maybe too late, Contador now knows he's stronger than his leader.

And one more thing, you mentioned Lance/Contador example in 2009. Tell me who ended higher in GC, leader or domestique?

Conrador was the one whose number ended in '1' not Lance and he was always the leader. Lance tried to usurp the role but it didn't work because Berto just rode away

 

[Escarabajo]

Hey Landa, come here: we are planning an attack from far away if we manage to isolate Contador before the last climb or before the second to last climb. So this is the plan you will be our sacrificial lamb. You'll attack ferociously and probably Contador won't try to follow right away because you are far away. Hey, if we fail we can count always on Aru.

What do you think Mikel, can we count on you?

1- Option: Hell NO.
2- Option: Yes I’ll do it if I have the strength. Later we found out he didn't have the strength at the points of attack. What a coincidence.

Human behavior has always been a ***! Just ask Froome and Wiggins, Contador and Lance, Hinault and Lemond.

Dauphine 2014 has nothing to do with this situation. We are talking about teammates not just riders from different teams.

If they they wanted to do it they can do it now, in this Giro in Tuesday stage. We will see how that will turn out. Maybe Mikel is already thinking about leaving Aru out to dry.

 

[Asero831]

Re: Re:

When Movistar said Intxausti and Izaguirre would be there leaders for the Giro, they actually meant Amador and Visconti.

An easy mistake to make, I'm sure you'll agree.

It's funny because you would also think that Anton, Herrada and Fernandez would be their plan c, d and e. But no, their 6th and 7th strongest riders on paper could both finish in the top 10. Crazy!

I think aside from Quintana and Valverde, this is the best Movistar GC team.
Astana clearly have their team B as Westra, Fuglsang, Taaramae, Grivko and Scarponi still not lined up.