Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

And since last Sunday, I've become a bit more enthusiastic again.

Cause other guys have better motors now?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Illmaestro's Pogacar Moto thread exists. Maybe we should disentangle the debates about substance and mechanical doping.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I've been following this here for a while, and the reason is simple: I am 100% convinced that Pogacar is using mechanical doping. It is unbelievable that this is simply possible, and we are seeing all kinds of indirect evidence. I stopped watching after the La Flèche Wallonne 2025, except for the Tour. And since last Sunday, I've become a bit more enthusiastic again. The 2025 La Flèche Wallonne, where, as always, he first looks down before suddenly dropping everyone out of nowhere.

Are you 100% convinced that Pogacar alone is doing it, or do you think there is generally mechanical doping in the Peloton?

 

[SorelyBoy]

Illmaestro's Pogacar Moto thread exists. Maybe we should disentangle the debates about substance and mechanical doping.

Maybe, although doping is doping. It's rider specific, no? I don't think there's any difference morally (which is why I think people using one banned method wouldn't hesitate to use any other banned methods if it would give them an advantage). Happy to go along with whatever people think though.

 

[jotafap]

Maybe, although doping is doping. It's rider specific, no? I don't think there's any difference morally (which is why I think people using one banned method wouldn't hesitate to use any other banned methods if it would give them an advantage). Happy to go along with whatever people think though.

There's an insane difference though.
With doping, you can more or less safely assume that IF some riders are doing it, then most of the peloton probably is too, it would make the battlefield somewhat "even".
With a motor, that WOULD be next-level cheating against your competitors, and you're no longer pedalling using only your legs, you are no longer doing real cycling.

It's a huge difference, and I don't think any top rider would do it — even lack of moral have limits.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I've been following this here for a while, and the reason is simple: I am 100% convinced that Pogacar is using mechanical doping. It is unbelievable that this is simply possible, and we are seeing all kinds of indirect evidence. I stopped watching after the La Flèche Wallonne 2025, except for the Tour. And since last Sunday, I've become a bit more enthusiastic again. The 2025 La Flèche Wallonne, where, as always, he first looks down before suddenly dropping everyone out of nowhere.

Yeah, looking down in the same way as he did when he put the power down against Van Aert on Sunday. He does do it, no doubt. The question is whether its just a psychological tick he has when he's attacking, or about to attack, or is it more than that? Is he checking to make sure the motor is kicking in? Hard to know, except he usually does sail off into the distance with minimal visible effort - looks bloody weird to me. I think Sunday had him up against a rider far more suited to the course (in normal times) who was 'on one' and who *just* about was able to hold on with a monumental effort (visible for all to see how much Van Aert was straining in comparison to Pogacar at times). Also, Pogacar did have to exert more energy than maybe he would have wanted to after those mechanicals or punctures, so wherever the power was coming from the batteries were running low so to speak. Still, that he lost would have been a bitter pill to swallow, as the post race comments revealed. UAE and Pogacar have reached a level of hubris where they think they should be allowed to win all the races the compete in. They are not half as popular as some of his fan boys would have you believe.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Maybe, although doping is doping. It's rider specific, no? I don't think there's any difference morally (which is why I think people using one banned method wouldn't hesitate to use any other banned methods if it would give them an advantage). Happy to go along with whatever people think though.

It's not a suggestion on moral grounds, but to have more focussed debates.

 

[SorelyBoy]

There's an insane difference though.
With doping, you can more or less safely assume that IF some riders are doing it, then most of the peloton probably is too, it would make the battlefield somewhat "even".
With a motor, that WOULD be next-level cheating against your competitors, and you're no longer pedalling using only your legs, you longer doing real cycling.

It's a huge difference, and I don't think any top rider would do it — even lack of moral have limits.

Maybe, but it's not a universal rule that applies to everyone. People generally work on a spectrum of what they can morally reconcile with their own consciences and riders and team directors are no different. I think at the extreme end, some people have no limits. Back in the day, riders used to take the train because they thought they could get away with it. Lance Armstrong tried to destroy peoples lives because he wanted to win so much and keep all that filthy lucre. There were rumours back then that he was using motors as well, and I wouldn't have been in the least surprised if he had been. So, no I don't think the line is that big a one to cross for people who are already so morally compromised they probably just tell themselves the old lie that everyone is 'at it', and ultimately they just don't care anyway. They are utterly cynical. And I do think there are people in the sport today, including riders, who do use motors. Probably not many. Maybe not all the time. However, I am highly suspect of Mr Pogacar and UAE because of the personalities involved AND the ludicrous too good to be true performances that simply can't be explained by advanced biological doping programmes. He's playing cycling on cheat mode and it shows.

 

[jotafap]

Maybe not all the time. However, I am highly suspect of Mr Pogacar and UAE because of the personalities involved AND the ludicrous too good to be true performances that simply can't be explained by advanced biological doping programmes. He's playing cycling on cheat mode and it shows.

Those are literally all your interpretations and perceptions of reality. Please don’t state them as facts. It doesn’t show because you simply don’t know, just like I don’t.

Anyway, i gotta stop myself from coming to the clinic, it's my fault... All of this is just a daily recycling of what has already been said (by big big biased haters), and it's nothing more than a discussion built on mirages.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Those are literally all your interpretations and perceptions of reality. Please don’t state them as facts. It doesn’t show because you simply don’t know, just like I don’t.

Anyway, i gotta stop myself from coming to the clinic, it's my fault... All of this is just a daily recycling of what has already been said (by big big biased haters), and it's nothing more than a discussion built on mirages.

It's an opinion. That's what this forum is about, a safe space to give opinions, not have people come here and try to shut down such conversations. However, I do think it is very valuable and better if people express rational opinions that are backed up by evidence and reasoning. I'm open to hearing alternative views, but it has to be more than just 'he's just the greatest and you're saying all these thing because you don't like him.' I used to be like that, waaay back. I used to believe Lance was the greatest cyclist ever. I would defend him to the hilt. Then I got my eyes opened and I couldn't deny it. I was never going to be taken for a fool ever again. If it looks too good to be true, it usually is. That's not being cynical, it's being realistic. And remember, every one who cheats is taking away someone else's glory, taking away their livelihoods. It's an important topic that we cannot ignore because it is too painful to contemplate.

 

[E_F_]

If Pogacar is motordoping, I'm sure others are too. Vingegaard's TT comes to mind.

Pogacar being the star rider who responds the best and has the most sophisticated doping, and motor, would make sense considering his dominance of the overall sport. I'd never argue that a potential motor is the be all, end all. Rather just an extra kick to the groin of the cycling world. For gratuitous emphasis.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Has this been posted before? Absolutely extraordinary and full of detailed evidence about what’s actually been going on in terms of motor doping and what’s possible technically. The news about motors being detected at Strade Bianche and Giro del Trentino in 2016 is a real eye opener.

View: https://youtu.be/7s-oGZAl0qE?si=zoq1cY3KPuczHwjK

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

I apologize for being a year out.
Also, Pogačar destroyed everyone in 2024 and 2025 RVV/ PR on the colnago v5rs, which is not an areo bike, and tests very, very bad. This thing about modern bikes is massively over exaggerated, just a marketing scam IMO.

For the sake of accuracy, Pogacar didn’t dominate the cobbled classics in 2024. He skipped those, after all.

The V5Rs is barely a year old and is absolutely top-notch. It's foolish to try to compare it to a Canyon that's +5 years old.

It's just an urban legend among weekend warriors that top of the line new bikes aren't any faster than the old ones. Weekend warriors simply don't ride for long enough and at the required high pace to see how many watts new bikes are saving.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Nobody is arguing pog is squicky clean and everbody knew lance was on juice back than. Like everyone knows eddie was on same cocktails germans used in france or eastern front,lmaoo. You are arguing he is on e-bike riding out of bakery. Dont get soft now.

 

[ashhutch1997]

For the sake of accuracy, Pogacar didn’t dominate the cobbled classics in 2024. He skipped those, after all.

The V5Rs is barely a year old and is absolutely top-notch. It's foolish to try to compare it to a Canyon that's +5 years old.

It's just an urban legend among weekend warriors that top of the line new bikes aren't any faster than the old ones. Weekend warriors simply don't ride for long enough and at the required high pace to see how many watts new bikes are saving.

I didn't say he dominated the cobbled classics in 2024, just in general. The V5RS is a dog of a bike, tests awful, the Y1RS however is very fast, but a nightmare to work on!
Also weekend warriors are more likely to ride these new bikes, as they are the biggest bike snobs out there.
As someone who races at a national level in the UK myself, I can tell you that yes, these modern bikes are faster, but there are bikes from 5 plus years ago which are still very fast, a good position on the bike and a good set of wheels make a lot of the difference. Modern bikes are obviously fast, but this whole "bikes from 5 years ago are so slow" is a load of rubbish.

Personaly I think they use these 'modern bikes' as a cover up for the ridiculous speeds, there's more going on.

 

[onefortheroad]

I've been following this here for a while, and the reason is simple: I am 100% convinced that Pogacar is using mechanical doping. It is unbelievable that this is simply possible, and we are seeing all kinds of indirect evidence. I stopped watching after the La Flèche Wallonne 2025, except for the Tour. And since last Sunday, I've become a bit more enthusiastic again. The 2025 La Flèche Wallonne, where, as always, he first looks down before suddenly dropping everyone out of nowhere.

Just my opinion:
The bike seems to accelerate first, the physiology only catches up afterwards. UAE play their role perfectly. They are not just enabling dominance, they are normalizing excess. It stops feeling competitive and starts feeling declarative, like Pog and UAE are openly ridiculing the peloton, riding away laughing.

At this stage, it doesn’t even feel subtle anymore, they are trolling the sport. The message feels simple: this is allowed, because nobody stops it. That’s really the provocation here. Not the winning itself, but the confidence. The sense that this can just keep escalating because oversight never actually intersects with outcome.

So that’s where the satire inevitably lands. When performances violate basic biomechanical expectation often enough, any attempt at rational explanation gives way to comedy, not because anything is proven (yet), but because pretending this all looks normal would be the real fantasy.

 

[AlpRaid]

Yeah, looking down in the same way as he did when he put the power down against Van Aert on Sunday. He does do it, no doubt. The question is whether its just a psychological tick he has when he's attacking, or about to attack, or is it more than that? Is he checking to make sure the motor is kicking in? Hard to know, except he usually does sail off into the distance with minimal visible effort - looks bloody weird to me. I think Sunday had him up against a rider far more suited to the course (in normal times) who was 'on one' and who *just* about was able to hold on with a monumental effort (visible for all to see how much Van Aert was straining in comparison to Pogacar at times). Also, Pogacar did have to exert more energy than maybe he would have wanted to after those mechanicals or punctures, so wherever the power was coming from the batteries were running low so to speak. Still, that he lost would have been a bitter pill to swallow, as the post race comments revealed. UAE and Pogacar have reached a level of hubris where they think they should be allowed to win all the races the compete in. They are not half as popular as some of his fan boys would have you believe.

he was helped a huge amount by the motorbikes after his puncture, not sure he worked that hard. and the group in front can be seen to stall (wide across the road) when pog closed the last 15 seconds.

the crazy thing is his attack that sees him completely not aero making one of the most powerful riders strain unbelievably to stay in touch. How is a 65 kg non-aero rider causing one of the most powerful riders to visibly strain that much to equal him on the flat? It was just unbelievable.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Has this been posted before? Absolutely extraordinary and full of detailed evidence about what’s actually been going on in terms of motor doping and what’s possible technically. The news about motors being detected at Strade Bianche and Giro del Trentino in 2016 is a real eye opener.

View: https://youtu.be/7s-oGZAl0qE?si=zoq1cY3KPuczHwjK

Interesting to listen to, learned a bit by doing so. Yet I don't think it supports your conclusions. The electromagnetic wheel motors he says are a theoretical idea, that would cost at least 200k per unit and would need a James Bond type of organisation with secret engineers to do so.
More so the podcast's conclusion is that there are a lot of scans and that it seems likely that motors would be busted on pro level. Not so much so on amateur level where there are no checks, which is what the podcast episode is mainly focused on.
When it comes to 2016: the Podcast is rather clear here. It happend and there was an effective reaction by the UCI employing more and better scans.
It does not rule out more advanced tech, but that's the James Bond Type tech mentioned before and even for that it would not be clear that it can't be detected.
Basically to sum it up: if moto doping is happening it's super advanced stuff that doesn't officially exist and needs basically a large investor, be private or state, to facilitate it, while still running a high risk of being found out.

 

[onefortheroad]

Interesting to listen to, learned a bit by doing so. Yet I don't think it supports your conclusions. The electromagnetic wheel motors he says are a theoretical idea, that would cost at least 200k per unit and would need a James Bond type of organisation with secret engineers to do so.
More so the podcast's conclusion is that there are a lot of scans and that it seems likely that motors would be busted on pro level. Not so much so on amateur level where there are no checks, which is what the podcast episode is mainly focused on.
When it comes to 2016: the Podcast is rather clear here. It happend and there was an effective reaction by the UCI employing more and better scans.
It does not rule out more advanced tech, but that's the James Bond Type tech mentioned before and even for that it would not be clear that it can't be detected.
Basically to sum it up: if moto doping is happening it's super advanced stuff that doesn't officially exist and needs basically a large investor, be private or state, to facilitate it, while still running a high risk of being found out.

Motor doping gets waved away too easily, but in a sport built on bespoke frames, trust based inspections and zero teardown culture, “unlikely” starts looking suspiciously comfortable, especially when the most extreme forms of optimization sit well beyond what could meaningfully be inspected.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Motor doping gets waved away too easily, but in a sport built on bespoke frames, trust based inspections and zero teardown culture, “unlikely” starts looking suspiciously comfortable, especially when the most extreme forms of optimization sit well beyond what could meaningfully be inspected.

I'm not even waving. Just took the information from the podcast seriously to point out that it's in fact not making the case for moto doping in the current peloton.

To the bolded: what does that mean in concrete terms. The podcast claims it would be high tech super spy stuff. I have no idea as to how credible this is though. What I am wondering is how you could build an undetectable motor. Most of what I remember reading about it here was "trust me bro" stuff or speculation what could be possible, taken as a fact that it's also being done.

That of course does not mean that it's impossible. And by quotes from the Podcast (that sadly doesn't give sources to it's video) it's being taken seriously as a possibility. But that in turn doesn't mean that one can say with a high degree of certitude that it is in fact happening.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Ride to bakery with some flowers. Look at the midgets behind.

 

[onefortheroad]

I'm not even waving. Just took the information from the podcast seriously to point out that it's in fact not making the case for moto doping in the current peloton.

To the bolded: what does that mean in concrete terms. The podcast claims it would be high tech super spy stuff. I have no idea as to how credible this is though. What I am wondering is how you could build an undetectable motor. Most of what I remember reading about it here was "trust me bro" stuff or speculation what could be possible, taken as a fact that it's also being done.

That of course does not mean that it's impossible. And by quotes from the Podcast (that sadly doesn't give sources to it's video) it's being taken seriously as a possibility. But that in turn doesn't mean that one can say with a high degree of certitude that it is in fact happening.

I would say bike controls verify absence of obvious anomalies but not presence of verified internal behavior.
Anything that lives inside sealed, bespoke components, operates intermittently rather than continuously and looks like efficiency or smoothing rather than propulsion could be outside what is inspected.