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2015 Milano - Sanremo, March 22nd, 293 km

Page 18 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re:

IndianCyclist said:
I guess everybody is disappointed with this edition. Kristoff, Matthews, Sagan, Bouhanni, Cancellara, GVA, Gilbert, Stybar, Kwai, Ciolek, Swift. Everybody had legs but made a mistake or boxed up or no support from team
The only guy who is a happy is Degenkolb.
As it should be! Only Degenkolb won. Nothing annoys me more than a rider being ecstatic with a minor place (unless they are a genuine surprise).

Too many riders are happy with mediocrity at times
 
Mar 13, 2015
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rhubroma said:
Mr.White said:
rhubroma said:
alspacka said:
All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

No, it is not nonesense. After nearly 300 k in the legs and all that tension, take uselessly (because anti-strategic) any extra wind (which amounts to deaccelleration) in the final ks and you pay. The guys coming from behind were protected, carried the momentem into a better position once the throttle was fully opened and Sagan was left fighting for a placing. End of story.

I mean it's not some amatuer race but MSR!

He didn't lose for that 2-3 secs in the wind, as you say, he lost because of bad positioning. He had good top speed, I would say equal to Degenkolb's, and if he could of been on Degenkolb or Krisotff's wheel he would likely won. Breschel should of help with positioning, like Paolini did with Kristoff, or the two Lampre guys did it, cause he was already there and he probably had strength considering his 12th place

But he was positioned wrong! And the moment I saw him dangling off the front on those terms, I said now he aint gonna win.



The point is that had he not made that mistake he would have been in the best position to win the sprint for Chrissake!

The point is there was NO MISTAKE where you said it was! GVA and Thomas stepped aside after decent, he was left in front position 2-3 sec, stepped aside too, and catched 5th or 6th wheel. Later Paolini led Kristoff to the front, Sagan jumped on Degenkolb's wheel, but lost it in the last turn, when Lampre guys and Scarponi came from other side, and there's where Breschel would be helpfull, but he did nothing. MISTAKE was letting Degenkolb's wheel, not that silly 3 seconds at the front
 
Mr.White said:
rhubroma said:
Mr.White said:
rhubroma said:
alspacka said:
All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

No, it is not nonesense. After nearly 300 k in the legs and all that tension, take uselessly (because anti-strategic) any extra wind (which amounts to deaccelleration) in the final ks and you pay. The guys coming from behind were protected, carried the momentem into a better position once the throttle was fully opened and Sagan was left fighting for a placing. End of story.

I mean it's not some amatuer race but MSR!

He didn't lose for that 2-3 secs in the wind, as you say, he lost because of bad positioning. He had good top speed, I would say equal to Degenkolb's, and if he could of been on Degenkolb or Krisotff's wheel he would likely won. Breschel should of help with positioning, like Paolini did with Kristoff, or the two Lampre guys did it, cause he was already there and he probably had strength considering his 12th place

But he was positioned wrong! And the moment I saw him dangling off the front on those terms, I said now he aint gonna win.



The point is that had he not made that mistake he would have been in the best position to win the sprint for Chrissake!

The point is there was NO MISTAKE where you said it was! GVA and Thomas stepped aside after decent, he was left in front position 2-3 sec, stepped aside too, and catched 5th or 6th wheel. Later Paolini led Kristoff to the front, Sagan jumped on Degenkolb's wheel, but lost it in the last turn, when Lampre guys and Scarponi came from other side, and there's where Breschel would be helpfull, but he did nothing. MISTAKE was letting Degenkolb's wheel, not that silly 3 seconds at the front

Well you have confirmed why he made a game loosing mistake at that moment, as I have said. He lost the right position from the moment he was dangling off the front in that instant.

Bike racing is a series of good or bad choices, the later in the game the bad choices are made the greater the consequences in terms of failure. He still might not have won had he been covered instead of taking wind in that moment, but he would have had a hell of a lot better chance of not loosing the right wheel in the decisive moment had he not been. This has been my point and anybody that thinks otherwise I don't agree with.
 
nepetalactone said:
rhubroma said:
This has been my point and anybody that thinks otherwise I don't agree with.

Admitting you won't listen to anyone's argument but your own is always a sure way to come out on top! :rolleyes:

Oh come on. This isn't a nobel prize debate. :p And I couldn't care less if people agree with me or not. Having said that, I see no reason to disagree with myself. :D

PS. You obviously can't read, as I didn't say I wouldn't listen, just that I wouldn't agree. :cool: It is my right in something as trivial as a bike race chap, no? Also because I don't know how many times I've seen guys taking wind in the crucial final part of a race they might otherwise win and then botch the sprint.
 
Well you have confirmed why he made a game loosing mistake at that moment, as I have said. He lost the right position from the moment he was dangling off the front in that instant.

Bike racing is a series of good or bad choices, the later in the game the bad choices are made the greater the consequences in terms of failure. He still might not have won had he been covered instead of taking wind in that moment, but he would have had a hell of a lot better chance of not loosing the right wheel in the decisive moment had he not been. This has been my point and anybody that thinks otherwise I don't agree with.

No he did not. He got to Degenkolb's wheel which was a great wheel to have by falling back after riding at the front. If he had not ridden at the front there is no guarantee he would have even been able to get that wheel, or could have hold on to it longer.
The mistake of riding at the front holds no correlation with the mistake of losing Degenkolb's wheel.
 
Panda Claws said:
Well you have confirmed why he made a game loosing mistake at that moment, as I have said. He lost the right position from the moment he was dangling off the front in that instant.

Bike racing is a series of good or bad choices, the later in the game the bad choices are made the greater the consequences in terms of failure. He still might not have won had he been covered instead of taking wind in that moment, but he would have had a hell of a lot better chance of not loosing the right wheel in the decisive moment had he not been. This has been my point and anybody that thinks otherwise I don't agree with.

No he did not. He got to Degenkolb's wheel which was a great wheel to have by falling back after riding at the front. If he had not ridden at the front there is no guarantee he would have even been able to get that wheel, or could have hold on to it longer.
The mistake of riding at the front holds no correlation with the mistake of losing Degenkolb's wheel.

No there is a correlation, because Degenkolb was not off the front at the wrong moment and his was not the wheel to be on, but possibly Kristoff's. In fact Degenkolb was best positioned, because he remained covered throughout. He didn't have to fall back and regain position/momentum/composure, etc., which are the very things Sagan had to do that in the end led him astray. Sagan had too much to re-do to find the right position, and this favored Degenkolb. Of course others were not ideally positioned either, but only Sagan was dangling off the front and had to readjust in a critical moment and only Sagan probably had the top speed to win (I'm thinking of the Italian 21 year-old youngster who was on Kristoff's wheel but than faded in the end). This means that his sprint could have reaped a better result, I believe, had he played it cooler. The only way I have seen a cyclist re-adjust like that and still win the sprint, was when he was far superior to his rivals. Though that was not the case with Sagan and it is even less likely in a sprint finish at MSR, which is not a normal sprint.

Look I'm not saying Sagan would have won even if he had not made the mistake he undoubtedly did, however, having made it, the rest followed its logical sequence. But if he decided not to attack over the Poggio and down its descent, this means he must have decided that a larger group finish was acceptable to his sprinting capacity, or that trying to arrive in a more select group was either not possible or too risky. Well then if he accepted the former option, then he didn't base his end tactic exclusively with that in mind. I take this as why he allowed himself to be in the wind in the drawing conclusion of the race, as if he still harbored some doubt about the possibility of getting away, when by that time the only thing he should have been doing was staying under cover and focusing on finding the best position for the sprint. The reshuffling that some have found to be rather insignificant, was, in my view, in fact crucial to loosing the wheel, or in any case not getting into the best position.

Modern cycling, and all the teams are saying this, is about trying to make all the little details work in your favor. And one small, however seemingly insignificant, error can be fatal.
 
There is a lot of talk about Sagan doing 4 or 5 seconds "work" a few kilometers out. All he did was put his nose in the wind and test the pedals a little. Once he saw Thomas respond, he gave up.

I have just rewatched the race and he was on the front of a group of 3 up the Poggio for 20 seconds chasing GVA down.

And he also did a fair bit of work trying to chase GVA and Thomas in the early part of the descent.

For me, if he had kept his nose clean and followed wheels he might have had a chance of having the energy to hold the right wheel in the sprint. The few pedal strokes on the flat 2km were a small part of that. He did a lot more unnecessary work. Even still, he was probably the fastest rider over the final 400m (along with Bouhanni).

If he had been on Degenkolb's or Matthews' wheel in the final kilometre, he would have won or been a hair away.
 
I should add that Sagan wasn't completely stupid in what he did. If he had sat up on the Poggio, and GVA, Thomas and (say) Stybar had been hammering it down the descent, there was always a risk that he would have been sprinting in the second group for 4th place.

We can all call him an idiot, but he clearly felt he was strong enough to close things down and put himself in a position to get away in a small group if possible. And still have enough energy to have a fighting chance to win a 25 man sprint. And I think he was just some poor positioning away from a win (albeit that his work may have hindered him in his ability to hold wheels).

This is the beauty of our sport. The strongest doesn't always win. Thank Christ, as otherwise we'd be hooking them up to power meters and looking at their figures.
 
Regarding Sagan the only thing that baffled me about his MSR is why didn't he got any help from Matti "I want Daddy Riis" Breschel.
Really. And I thought he switched team to have better support.
If only Breschel did his job, we would've almost surely a different winner.
 

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