2015 Milano - Sanremo, March 22nd, 293 km

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

 

[SafeBet]

Underrate ride of the day: Fabio Felline. Always with the very best in the final 30km.
I really don't understand Trek's tactics here, they had the chance to race aggressively with him, Arredondo and Cance, but decided to sit and wait for Cance's sprint. Meh.

I'm also a bit disappointed with Lotto Soudal. You've got Roelandts, Wellens and Gallopin all looking good and you try nothing (only a little dig from Gallopin on the Cipressa descent). You're not expecting any of them to podium the sprint with such a field, are you? Maybe satisfied with three top15. Double meh.

BMC rode great until the crash. Sky was clueless but at least aggressive. Astana abysmal, but there's clearly a collective lack of legs there, not a tactical fail.

And I was wrong about Bonifazio, super impressive performance at 21 years old and huge classic potential.

Overall a good race, bring back Le Manie with the final in Via Roma and it's perfect.

 

[Jagartrott]

Sagan and some others with a decent sprint should've attacked.
Van Avermaet did, he tried, and got nothing. If he hadn't tried, he could've ended up 5th or 6th - but so what?

You have to ride to win. I don't understand why hardly anybody seemed to be doing that.

 

[Vesica]

BMC played it very well until Oss was caught. Unfortunately Gilbert hit the deck, but I believe they were with 6 riders in the front group. But not a single attack..Lotto Soudal same story, could have made an attack, they had they right riders for it.

Anyway, great victory by John Degenkolb, one of my favorite riders in the peloton.

Moments of the day. Greipel dropping Nibali and the great Paolini, what a beast!

 

[jens_attacks]

Re: Re:

Pozzato said that there was a strong headwind on the Poggio, so nobody dared to attack

the wind came from a different direction than last year though (at least if RCS got their data right), when the riders still mentioned the same excuse as a reason not to attack.

There's a 180°C corner on the Poggio, so you can't have head-/tailwind for the whole climb of course, but neither can it be the reason not to attack for two years in a row, when it came from different directions (ENE this year, NNW in 2014).

forecast was wrong. it was a strong, strog straight headwind on the poggio for the last 2 kms(where is a straight road). gilbert attacked hard but almost went backwards. it is impossible to attack in such a wind on the poggio sadly. you can attack before the straight road in the hairpins but they will get you back at the top, di luca did that in 2003 i think.
nonetheless, they should have hammered it more on cipressa. that was the only point where the attackers stand a chance yesterday. at least to make the race harder with their domestiques

 

[Flamin]

Re:

I'm also a bit disappointed with Lotto Soudal. You've got Roelandts, Wellens and Gallopin all looking good and you try nothing (only a little dig from Gallopin on the Cipressa descent). You're not expecting any of them to podium the sprint with such a field, are you? Maybe satisfied with three top15. Double meh.

Did you expect anything else? like I said, classic Lotto.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

Who. Probably if Kwiatko and Styby, Gilbert did not go down but there were nobody strong enough to make the break viable on the top of Poggio. (Cancelara will never ever cooperate with Sagan ). With Cav, Greipel down, the bunch sprint was his best card. End of story. Yes, he would have made the race once again as he did so many times before. The race finale would have been epic but not for him.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

He did have the legs. He did not do the right thing. Wasting his energy and unable to use his team. If he had been as invisible as Degenkolb and used his energy to get the right wheel, he'd have been in the top-2 with a good chance of winning. I expect the same thing to happen in Ronde. Unfortunately.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

Who. Probably if Kwiatko and Styby, Gilbert did not go down but there were nobody strong enough to make the break viable on the top of Poggio. (Cancelara will never ever cooperate with Sagan ). With Cav, Greipel down, the bunch sprint was his best card. End of story. Yes, he would have made the race once again as he did so many times before. The race finale would have been epic but not for him.

He didn't race to win. He should have been ready when Gilbert went and attack again. He is a good sprinter, but he is not the best sprinter and has other possibilities, which he did not use. Bettini was a good sprinter and always used other possibilities, at times erring in being too aggressive, but that guy was a winner.

By contrast Sagan doesn't race for the big attack, for the win in other words. He should be able to put the hurt on lots of guys on the Cipressa and Poggio, but instead rides wheels and plays little tactical games, when he should just put the throttle down. I don't understand that from someone of his caliber. It's like he thinks in a bunch sprint he is Cav on a good day, then at the bottom of the decent he goes of the front and looks back! No!!!!!

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

He did have the legs. He did not do the right thing. Wasting his energy and unable to use his team. If he had been as invisible as Degenkolb and used his energy to get the right wheel, he'd have been in the top-2 with a good chance of winning. I expect the same thing to happen in Ronde. Unfortunately.

We are discussing here his decision whether to attack on top of Poggio or to wait for bunch sprint. The lack of his ability to use his team as well his positioning last and this year is another story. You might be right but I do think that his positioning is matter of his legs. I remember him controlling the peloton at the end of the races in 2012 and 2013. Yesterday he still was not in his form from MSR form 2013 (not talking about the distance).
As far as Ronde is concerned I think he will be in top shape and it will not be easy to get rid of him and outsprint him on the finale.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

Who. Probably if Kwiatko and Styby, Gilbert did not go down but there were nobody strong enough to make the break viable on the top of Poggio. (Cancelara will never ever cooperate with Sagan ). With Cav, Greipel down, the bunch sprint was his best card. End of story. Yes, he would have made the race once again as he did so many times before. The race finale would have been epic but not for him.

He didn't race to win. He should have been ready when Gilbert went and attack again. He is a good sprinter, but he is not the best sprinter and has other possibilities, which he did not use. Bettini was a good sprinter and always used other possibilities, at times erring in being too aggressive, but that guy was a winner.

By contrast Sagan doesn't race for the big attack, for the win in other words. He should be able to put the hurt on lots of guys on the Cipressa and Poggio, but instead rides wheels and plays little tactical games, when he should just put the throttle down. I don't understand that from someone of his caliber. It's like he thinks in a bunch sprint he is Cav on a good day, then at the bottom of the decent he goes of the front and looks back! No!!!!!

Another BS. He always race for win. He is Sagan. He does not care about second places. Last but not least I am sure the decision was done by Riis and the decision was correct.

 

[Netserk]

Yes, but he is too afraid to lose out. He doesn't seem to have the calmness required to stick to one strategy. Often he ends up trying to have his cake and eat it too. He is simply too eager. His lack of wins and shitload of placings haven't helped on that of course.

 

[Jancouver]

Since we are talking Sagan and his tactics

If I was Saxo DS my plan before the race would be:

1. Kreuziger setting up a blistering pace on Poggio to drop all the weak climbers/sprinters
2. Let Sagan lead the descent with Breschel on his wheel
3. Let Breschel go all out and do all the dirty work immediately after the descent
4. Sagan finishing the sprint from a small group

I think if this was the scenario, it would be a bunch of small groups and not enough time to bring the leading group of maybe 5-10 back.

 

[Netserk]

Good luck getting Breschel 2nd wheel on the top of Poggio.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

I am sure he did not want to get there, and he did not use any extra energy there he is just too fast on the descent like that. When he realized he is in front, he checked who could join him. There was nobody strong enough to bring him to the line so he stopped, he is not Cancelara or Martin after all.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Sagan's Race can be summed up with one word "indecisive". Should i attack on the Poggio. Should i attack in the downhill Should i attack 2 k from the end. Should i sprint. Some many questions with failure an option therefore no answers
Sometimes being multi-talented is also a curse because it is difficult to take a decision because you are afraid to take the wrong one

 

[IndianCyclist]

I guess everybody is disappointed with this edition. Kristoff, Matthews, Sagan, Bouhanni, Cancellara, GVA, Gilbert, Stybar, Kwai, Ciolek, Swift. Everybody had legs but made a mistake or boxed up or no support from team
The only guy who is a happy is Degenkolb.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

What a ***. With such a headwind there was no chance to hold to the finish with attack on the top of Poggio or after the the descend. Everybody in the field new it and Sagan is not stupid either. He did the right thing. The true is he simply did not have the legs to win the bunch sprint after 300 km. It was also the reason of his bad positioning.

RVV will be another story.

BS? You don't have a friggin clue. Sagan and a couple other riders, who were they, could have dive bombed down the descent of the Poggio. Even a two or three seconds gap becomes interesting at that point. Ok, not ideal for him? Well then, even if he decided to be prudent, not attack and wait for the sprint, then why the f-uck was he off the front taking wind on the flat after the descent, to then be badly positioned for the sprint!? Amateurish dude. Really. It shows he was insecure, not concentrated and anxious for the top result. This is evidently what Peter lacks to win a monument thus far.

If he races as tactically inept as that at the Ronde, then Canc will own him.

Who. Probably if Kwiatko and Styby, Gilbert did not go down but there were nobody strong enough to make the break viable on the top of Poggio. (Cancelara will never ever cooperate with Sagan ). With Cav, Greipel down, the bunch sprint was his best card. End of story. Yes, he would have made the race once again as he did so many times before. The race finale would have been epic but not for him.

He didn't race to win. He should have been ready when Gilbert went and attack again. He is a good sprinter, but he is not the best sprinter and has other possibilities, which he did not use. Bettini was a good sprinter and always used other possibilities, at times erring in being too aggressive, but that guy was a winner.

By contrast Sagan doesn't race for the big attack, for the win in other words. He should be able to put the hurt on lots of guys on the Cipressa and Poggio, but instead rides wheels and plays little tactical games, when he should just put the throttle down. I don't understand that from someone of his caliber. It's like he thinks in a bunch sprint he is Cav on a good day, then at the bottom of the decent he goes of the front and looks back! No!!!!!

Another BS. He always race for win. He is Sagan. He does not care about second places. Last but not least I am sure the decision was done by Riis and the decision was correct.

Always races to win, eh? There is a difference between saying you race to win, but then effectively race to loose as was the Slovenian's case yesterday.

In fact, what the f-uck was he doing off the front not really attacking and looking back after the Poggio descent?

That's called the type of mistake one makes, when one is afraid of loosing. But MSR never awards one who is afraid to loose in the closing kilometers of the race. De sang-froid (di sangue freddo) is what a racer needs in the final ks on Via Roma! And Degenkolb was the most cold blooded of them all. This doesn't necessarily mean hubris, but unwavering concentration and unrestrained instinct, hence not a moments doubt or hesitation, like Sagan did off the front when his only thought should have been position, position, position. By contrast Sagan lacked both concentration and instinct. He simply wasn't sharp and this didn't give him the intuition to be in the best position to launch his sprint, remount and surpass - because you can't win MSR sprinting in the first position (as Kristoff found out), nor can you win by starting too far back (as was Sagan's case).

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

Good luck getting Breschel 2nd wheel on the top of Poggio.

Well, who could be 3rd wheel right after Kreuziger and Sagan

Perhaps, is that was the plan of the day, why not another "climber" in stead of Breschel that could follow Roman's wheel and help Sagan at the bottom of the climb? Basso? Or let Basso pull on Poggio and let Roman work after the descent?

 

[alspacka]

All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

 

[HelloDolly]

But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

Again I come back to the point that other riders who did better than Sagan yesterday did not have someone hammering it on the Poggio or leading them on the descent or positioning them for the sprint ..Sagan ended up where he ended up because he was not the strongest .... And that includes mental strength

TCS are limited in who the can have positioning him anywhere as they do not have strength in dept preferring to spend on 2 super stars ....but that is not always the best structure for a team as many people alluded to when Sangan was employed for £12 million euros for 3 years

 

[rhubroma]

All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

No, it is not nonesense. After nearly 300 k in the legs and all that tension, take uselessly (because anti-strategic) any extra wind (which amounts to deaccelleration) in the final ks and you pay. The guys coming from behind were protected, carried the momentem into a better position once the throttle was fully opened and Sagan was left fighting for a placing. End of story.

I mean it's not some amatuer race but MSR!

 

[Flamin]

Re:

Sagan's Race can be summed up with one word "indecisive". Should i attack on the Poggio. Should i attack in the downhill Should i attack 2 k from the end. Should i sprint. Some many questions with failure an option therefore no answers
Sometimes being multi-talented is also a curse because it is difficult to take a decision because you are afraid to take the wrong one

True, it must be very frustrating for him. It's too big of a risk to just sit back on the Poggio and count on his sprint (although he's not chanceless), but very few riders are willing to push on with him after the Poggio in a select group. So yeah, what do you do? He desperately needs a big win so this immense pressure falls off his shoulders and he can start racing with a clear head.

 

[Mr.White]

All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

No, it is not nonesense. After nearly 300 k in the legs and all that tension, take uselessly (because anti-strategic) any extra wind (which amounts to deaccelleration) in the final ks and you pay. The guys coming from behind were protected, carried the momentem into a better position once the throttle was fully opened and Sagan was left fighting for a placing. End of story.

I mean it's not some amatuer race but MSR!

He didn't lose for that 2-3 secs in the wind, as you say, he lost because of bad positioning. He had good top speed, I would say equal to Degenkolb's, and if he could of been on Degenkolb or Krisotff's wheel he would likely won. Breschel should of help with positioning, like Paolini did with Kristoff, or the two Lampre guys did it, cause he was already there and he probably had strength considering his 12th place

 

[rhubroma]

All this talk of Sagan wasting his energy after the poggio descent is nonsense. He found himself at the front for literally 2 seconds before he looked back stopped pedalling entirely. Yes, he obviously considered attacking, but he didn't do it. Perhaps he should have. It's true he suffers from having too many options, especially right now when results mean he is bound to be indecisive. But imo his only mistake was positioning for the sprint. How he can be at the front and then such a distance behind Kristoff 1km later I'll never know.

edit - Of course if Saxo had someone to hammer it up the Poggio to ditch Kristoff that would've been ideal, but no. And to do it himself with such a large group would've meant way more criticism all round and rightly so.

No, it is not nonesense. After nearly 300 k in the legs and all that tension, take uselessly (because anti-strategic) any extra wind (which amounts to deaccelleration) in the final ks and you pay. The guys coming from behind were protected, carried the momentem into a better position once the throttle was fully opened and Sagan was left fighting for a placing. End of story.

I mean it's not some amatuer race but MSR!

He didn't lose for that 2-3 secs in the wind, as you say, he lost because of bad positioning. He had good top speed, I would say equal to Degenkolb's, and if he could of been on Degenkolb or Krisotff's wheel he would likely won. Breschel should of help with positioning, like Paolini did with Kristoff, or the two Lampre guys did it, cause he was already there and he probably had strength considering his 12th place

But he was positioned wrong! And the moment I saw him dangling off the front on those terms, I said now he aint gonna win.

The point is that had he not made that mistake he would have been in the best position to win the sprint for Chrissake!