2015 Paris - Roubaix, 12th April 1.UWT, 253.5 Km

[Escarabajo]

I don't race. I ride a lot. And I ride with racers as well. But no, I have my priorities very clear in life no matter the pressure I have. My safety is first. Forget the rules. Think about your life and the life of the others.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

I don't race. I ride a lot. And I ride with racers as well. But no, I have my priorities very clear in life no matter the pressure I have. My safety is first. Forget the rules. Think about your life and the life of the others.

Riding and racing are two different things. In fact the priorities completely change. Not that cyclists don't think about their safety, but they do have to have another relationship, at times border line folly, with it while racing. Otherwise they wouldn't be racing.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Paolini wasn't writing in the heat of the moment though. No, I haven't raced, but racing is not the only activity that puts people in that kind of situation, and everybody else is still expected to follow the rules. That kind of privilege is never contemplated for the common people for some reason. I don't care for this kind of "racer's elitism" we see so often in this forum.

I'm not being hypocritical - I'm not demanding they give their all regardless of the consequences. I find it's a lot more hypocritical of these same racers to cry foul at the perceived lack of safety in the sport when they have to race in the cold or in the snow, or when banning race radios is discussed, only to happily sprint through a level crossing with a high-speed train approaching.

And let's be honest here: not much happens at Arenberg anymore.

I don't agree with any of this. First of all, for the reasons I mentioned above, cycling is not what you regard as simply one of many activities that places people in "that kind of situation." Go ride eyeballs out in single file in the gutter and wind (and rain at times) for miles and miles, holding on for dear life and praying that the speed drops down just a notch so you can catch your breath. While, at the same time, you know that if you can just get that little bit more energy out of yourself and remain attached, then you might get to the finish in a decent position, maybe for a top placing, maybe even win. There is nothing else that enters your mind, because you don't have the luxury otherwise. Maybe you get dropped, at which point then, yes, other things can enter mind. You regain lucidity, have a moving rest. But until you do, no. Everything else gets blocked out, is sacrificed to the greater objective: which is to remain in the race, in contention, viable. There really isn't anything comparable, when we realize that this is all taking place on public roads.

This was exactly the situation after Arenberg on Sunday and the drama we saw was thus a foregone conclusion.

What is most annoying about what you are saying is that you place a rule above the lives of the riders, even if that rule is meant to save them; while you yourself have admitted to never having raced. Well then, as a fan, at least have the humility to try and understand what that actually means for riders, in terms of the mental states it produces, the human and dramatic qualities, and come to terms with the fact that not every rule, no matter how well intentioned, is one that can be expected to be followed simply because its a rule.

Calvanist severity never really has been very successful, because it closes everything within the rules themselves and rather blockheadedly when it obviously doesn't function. But it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Just a bit of openminded flexibility.

So do you believe the riders to be hypocrites when they complain about riding in dangerous snowy conditions and than go play chicken with a train?

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Paolini wasn't writing in the heat of the moment though. No, I haven't raced, but racing is not the only activity that puts people in that kind of situation, and everybody else is still expected to follow the rules. That kind of privilege is never contemplated for the common people for some reason. I don't care for this kind of "racer's elitism" we see so often in this forum.

I'm not being hypocritical - I'm not demanding they give their all regardless of the consequences. I find it's a lot more hypocritical of these same racers to cry foul at the perceived lack of safety in the sport when they have to race in the cold or in the snow, or when banning race radios is discussed, only to happily sprint through a level crossing with a high-speed train approaching.

And let's be honest here: not much happens at Arenberg anymore.

I don't agree with any of this. First of all, for the reasons I mentioned above, cycling is not what you regard as simply one of many activities that places people in "that kind of situation." Go ride eyeballs out in single file in the gutter and wind (and rain at times) for miles and miles, holding on for dear life and praying that the speed drops down just a notch so you can catch your breath. While, at the same time, you know that if you can just get that little bit more energy out of yourself and remain attached, then you might get to the finish in a decent position, maybe for a top placing, maybe even win. There is nothing else that enters your mind, because you don't have the luxury otherwise. Maybe you get dropped, at which point then, yes, other things can enter mind. You regain lucidity, have a moving rest. But until you do, no. Everything else gets blocked out, is sacrificed to the greater objective: which is to remain in the race, in contention, viable. There really isn't anything comparable, when we realize that this is all taking place on public roads.

This was exactly the situation after Arenberg on Sunday and the drama we saw was thus a foregone conclusion.

What is most annoying about what you are saying is that you place a rule above the lives of the riders, even if that rule is meant to save them; while you yourself have admitted to never having raced. Well then, as a fan, at least have the humility to try and understand what that actually means for riders, in terms of the mental states it produces, the human and dramatic qualities, and come to terms with the fact that not every rule, no matter how well intentioned, is one that can be expected to be followed simply because its a rule.

Calvanist severity never really has been very successful, because it closes everything within the rules themselves and rather blockheadedly when it obviously doesn't function. But it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Just a bit of openminded flexibility.

So do you believe the riders to be hypocrites when they complain about riding in dangerous snowy conditions and than go play chicken with a train?

In the first place there is no connection between the two, because weather is a natural condition, trains a man made one.

Secondly, therefore, you can't control the weather, but the trains yes.

The real hypocrisy, therefore, lies in expecting the riders to go beyond the limits of normal control for everyone's entertainment, while leaving them totally responsible for all their actions under race conditions. You can't have it both ways all the time. Some of the time, yes. All of the time, no.

So even when exposed to a danger that can be completely controlled for their safety, the organization (and some fans) can wash their hands of any responsibility in the name of a rule. To me, that's hypocritical.

As regards what I think about riders complaining about having to ride in extreme weather conditions, this is something that the organization needs to deal with, not me. Probably today I wouldn't make the riders complete the 88 Gavia Giro stage, because of the descent. The recent Terminilo stage at TA, however, yes. If it were up to me, mind you.

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe we should create a subforum only for people who have raced. So that way people who come here to read know which are the opinions that count.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Maybe we should create a subforum only for people who have raced. So that way people who come here to read know which are the opinions that count.

Ok, cool. Let us then also create a subforum for those that haven't raced, so that they can set things straight.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

Re: Re:

Now I ask myself, and I ask you: how the hell do you get a peloton that committed in Paris Roubaix to even think about UCI rules? When you are at full cry, charged and delerious in the middle of a race (and, after all, what a race),inertia and adrenaline keep you in one mode (no matter what the danger, because you are simply in "another dimension"): AVANT!

They come to do their job, race, not think about if France has told the national train system that there is an epic republique event taking place so wait a minute, or if the damn organisation is thinking about riders' lives. There wasn't even a commissionaires to be found, nor gendarme. Unacceptable! And what poor publicity!

It is their job, so I expect them to be able to keep a clear head while doing it. If they are so charged and delirious as you make them sound, they wouldn't be able to keep their bikes straight either. Or follow basically any other rule. At that point in the race there was no reason to be stressed.
I also don't get the blaming on the organization part. The organization got it covered with a very clear rule. That the whole peleton decides to ignore that rule can't be blamed on the organization. You can however blame the organization for not having the courage to remove half the peleton from the race.

The most shocking is that when faced with the sight of closing barriers, the first instinct of basically the whole peleton is to accelerate and try to beat it. If no action is taken, that instinct will never change.

It's their job? Really? It's Paris F-ucking Roubaix, a national monument.

And your comment is ridiculous. They are paid to march on, not withstanding the fatigue and adrenaline.

Make sure the trains aren't a problem, state and organisation, please. Amatuers. How about if a football match was interrupted for this reason?

Football matches are regularly interrupted by some guy blowing on a whistle. Far less noticeable than barriers closing. Yet it still does the job perfectly fine, doesn't it?

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Now I ask myself, and I ask you: how the hell do you get a peloton that committed in Paris Roubaix to even think about UCI rules? When you are at full cry, charged and delerious in the middle of a race (and, after all, what a race),inertia and adrenaline keep you in one mode (no matter what the danger, because you are simply in "another dimension"): AVANT!

They come to do their job, race, not think about if France has told the national train system that there is an epic republique event taking place so wait a minute, or if the damn organisation is thinking about riders' lives. There wasn't even a commissionaires to be found, nor gendarme. Unacceptable! And what poor publicity!

It is their job, so I expect them to be able to keep a clear head while doing it. If they are so charged and delirious as you make them sound, they wouldn't be able to keep their bikes straight either. Or follow basically any other rule. At that point in the race there was no reason to be stressed.
I also don't get the blaming on the organization part. The organization got it covered with a very clear rule. That the whole peleton decides to ignore that rule can't be blamed on the organization. You can however blame the organization for not having the courage to remove half the peleton from the race.

The most shocking is that when faced with the sight of closing barriers, the first instinct of basically the whole peleton is to accelerate and try to beat it. If no action is taken, that instinct will never change.

It's their job? Really? It's Paris F-ucking Roubaix, a national monument.

And your comment is ridiculous. They are paid to march on, not withstanding the fatigue and adrenaline.

Make sure the trains aren't a problem, state and organisation, please. Amatuers. How about if a football match was interrupted for this reason?

Football matches are regularly interrupted by some guy blowing on a whistle. Far less noticeable than barriers closing. Yet it still does the job perfectly fine, doesn't it?

Sure in that closed environment. Put football matches on the road and see if the whistle is effective. At 50+ per hour eyeballs out.

 

[ptarmigan]

Some people here should get a grip. Cycling and Paris-Roubaix are not as important as they may think. How many people (in France/Europe) do you think actually watch P-R? 1 or 2%? 5% tops? Does this really justify stopping/delaying the trains? If the peloton is spread out, the train would have to stop for few minutes. This can have a huge knock-on effect on many other trains - the whole service planning diagram stops goes out of the window. Moreover, stopping and starting going again consumes non-trivial energy as well, and adds to the delay. In reality, professional cycling is a pretty minority sport, and it would be wrong to expect that the majority of population to consider this whole undertaking worthwhile.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Some people here should get a grip. Cycling and Paris-Roubaix are not as important as they may think. How many people (in France/Europe) do you think actually watch P-R? 1 or 2%? 5% tops? Does this really justify stopping/delaying the trains? If the peloton is spread out, the train would have to stop for few minutes. This can have a huge knock-on effect on many other trains - the whole service planning diagram stops goes out of the window. Moreover, stopping and starting going again consumes non-trivial energy as well, and adds to the delay. In reality, professional cycling is a pretty minority sport, and it would be wrong to expect that the majority of population to consider this whole undertaking worthwhile.

In fact, end cycling. Such a nuisance. Why do you even bother watching?

On the other hand it exists, grew up in the context and the culture it did, etc. Now, if it isn't worthwhile for the general public, then lets see if that public gives it up. Judging by the crowds at Paris Roubaix, well, no.

I know many who don't give a damn about football, but try and take that from the adicts and vandals, other than get a grip.

 

[Arnout]

Re: Re:

Some people here should get a grip. Cycling and Paris-Roubaix are not as important as they may think. How many people (in France/Europe) do you think actually watch P-R? 1 or 2%? 5% tops? Does this really justify stopping/delaying the trains? If the peloton is spread out, the train would have to stop for few minutes. This can have a huge knock-on effect on many other trains - the whole service planning diagram stops goes out of the window. Moreover, stopping and starting going again consumes non-trivial energy as well, and adds to the delay. In reality, professional cycling is a pretty minority sport, and it would be wrong to expect that the majority of population to consider this whole undertaking worthwhile.

In fact, end cycling. Such a nuisance. Why do you even bother watching?

On the other hand it exists, grew up in the context and the culture it did, etc. Now, if it isn't worthwhile for the general public, then lets see if that public gives it up. Judging by the crowds at Paris Roubaix, well, no.

I know many who don't give a damn about football, but try and take that from the adicts and vandals, other than get a grip.

You throw away your car when it has a tiny scratch? Overreacting much...

 

[peloton]

Re:

Some people here should get a grip. Cycling and Paris-Roubaix are not as important as they may think. How many people (in France/Europe) do you think actually watch P-R? 1 or 2%? 5% tops? Does this really justify stopping/delaying the trains? If the peloton is spread out, the train would have to stop for few minutes. This can have a huge knock-on effect on many other trains - the whole service planning diagram stops goes out of the window. Moreover, stopping and starting going again consumes non-trivial energy as well, and adds to the delay. In reality, professional cycling is a pretty minority sport, and it would be wrong to expect that the majority of population to consider this whole undertaking worthwhile.

Can't see the harm in stopping a few trains for couple minutes on a Sunday that are on route with the break/peloton?

Ridiculous to claim it would have a huge knock-on effect. It's Sunday.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Some people here should get a grip. Cycling and Paris-Roubaix are not as important as they may think. How many people (in France/Europe) do you think actually watch P-R? 1 or 2%? 5% tops? Does this really justify stopping/delaying the trains? If the peloton is spread out, the train would have to stop for few minutes. This can have a huge knock-on effect on many other trains - the whole service planning diagram stops goes out of the window. Moreover, stopping and starting going again consumes non-trivial energy as well, and adds to the delay. In reality, professional cycling is a pretty minority sport, and it would be wrong to expect that the majority of population to consider this whole undertaking worthwhile.

In fact, end cycling. Such a nuisance. Why do you even bother watching?

On the other hand it exists, grew up in the context and the culture it did, etc. Now, if it isn't worthwhile for the general public, then lets see if that public gives it up. Judging by the crowds at Paris Roubaix, well, no.

I know many who don't give a damn about football, but try and take that from the adicts and vandals, other than get a grip.

You throw away your car when it has a tiny scratch? Overreacting much...

Nah. I was being sarcastic.

 

[movingtarget]

The tailwind the riders had stuffed up the scheduling otherwise it would not have been a problem at the level crossing but it's easily fixed. Send a communique to all of the team managers before the race and tell them if riders disobey the rules at level crossings they will be disqualified and also place officials near the gates. I know riders are full of adrenalin at that point of the race but there has to be clear rules and clear penalties for such events.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

The tailwind the riders had stuffed up the scheduling otherwise it would not have been a problem at the level crossing but it's easily fixed. Send a communique to all of the team managers before the race and tell them if riders disobey the rules at level crossings they will be disqualified and also place officials near the gates. I know riders are full of adrenalin at that point of the race but there has to be clear rules and clear penalties for such events.

Sure this is rational and certainly viable, well it would seem so anyway up to a certain point.

I think what Paolini is getting at was, bar stoping the train, there are too many variables with that system for the riders to have 100% security in this regard.

For example, given the adrenaline you recognize (in the case of Sunday's race following Arenberg, with the throttle completely open, the chase at full cry) the booms started going down as the riders were practically at the level crossing. Well they would need to be given more advanced warning to be able to physically stop in time, but this didn't happen.

The break would obviously also have had to be stopped, the race neutralized; but the race organization didn't seem to have the bare minimum in terms of prevention and reaction to do this. In fact we witnessed the farcical spectacle of incompetancy a là "Keystone Cops" commedy on that account.

This is what I meant by you can't put all the responsibility on the riders shoulders. The organization would need to step way up in terms of creating realistic (not irrealistic) conditions in which the riders can and will obey the rules. By contrast the boom coming down just ten meters before a strung out group after Arenberg as the chase was on certainly doesn't meet those conditions, and the fact that the race wasn't even neutralized afterwords only demonstrates how unprepared the organization was to deal with the problem.

Paolini's point of view I think is to be considered in light of these variables.

 

[sienna]

Re:

Paolini wasn't writing in the heat of the moment though. No, I haven't raced, but racing is not the only activity that puts people in that kind of situation, and everybody else is still expected to follow the rules. That kind of privilege is never contemplated for the common people for some reason. I don't care for this kind of "racer's elitism" we see so often in this forum.

I'm not being hypocritical - I'm not demanding they give their all regardless of the consequences. I find it's a lot more hypocritical of these same racers to cry foul at the perceived lack of safety in the sport when they have to race in the cold or in the snow, or when banning race radios is discussed, only to happily sprint through a level crossing with a high-speed train approaching.

And let's be honest here: not much happens at Arenberg anymore.

Yeah, it was a high-speed train, not some goods train.