2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (166k)

[Pricey_sky]

Re:

It's going to be interesting to see if the team will work 100% for Cavendish now. Uran in a promising position, support him 100% and tell Cavendish to take a hike.

Cav is still one of the best (if not the best) chance of them picking up a stage win so that's not going to happen. One thing is for sure Cav will be extra motivated now and a p*****d off cav usually gets a win.

 

[movingtarget]

As usual it's all about Cavendish. By not sprinting to the line he cost Martin yellow. Of course it was a shambles of a sprint for Etixx who worked so hard, Cavendish hit the lead much to early. But Cavendish has done this throughout his career. One he realizes the win has gone, he stops sprinting even when he was competing for the Green jersey he was going for wins only it seemed. Martin will lose time on the next stage so his chances of yellow are gone. Uran seems well placed and should do better on the climb than Cancellara but is too far back to grab yellow probably.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re:

It's going to be interesting to see if the team will work 100% for Cavendish now. Uran in a promising position, support him 100% and tell Cavendish to take a hike.

The best for the team would be if Cavendish leaves before the mountains (the earlier the better), so they can concentrate on those who actually care. Like for example, as you said, Uran who is in good form... If Etixx gives up pampering Cavendish until Paris, Uran could go T-10...

 

[Sciocco]

Re: Re:

It's going to be interesting to see if the team will work 100% for Cavendish now. Uran in a promising position, support him 100% and tell Cavendish to take a hike.

The best for the team would be if Cavendish leaves before the mountains (the earlier the better), so they can concentrate on those who actually care. Like for example, as you said, Uran who is in good form... If Etixx gives up pampering Cavendish until Paris, Uran could go T-10...

Cav crashing out on stage 1 or whatever it was last year was one of the best things about the tour. EQS can be a monster of a team when it comes to stage wins and making the race exciting. Trentin and Martin's stage wins were nice.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Was it last year? Wow I thought last year was when he took out Veelers intentionally to crash. Or was it the head bump last year... It´s all so confusing since infamous Cavendish sagas happen all the time.

 

[mikez]

Re:

It's going to be interesting to see if the team will work 100% for Cavendish now. Uran in a promising position, support him 100% and tell Cavendish to take a hike.

I was being sarcastic. I thought it interesting that so little attention in the article and this thread was given to TJ, almost all was devoted to Contador and Froome. I do understand that TJ is not considered as big a favorite as those two or the other favorites who missed the selection, but given the press, you'd think the guy was just some 2nd tier wannabe who was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

I'd be very surprised to see him in yellow in Paris, and there's a long way to go, but he's put himself in a strong position to be a legitimate podium contender.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

The thing I'll give Cav is this, in that situation (and lets face it, if you've watched cycling for more than a day, you've see that situation hundreds of times), when the guy in front knows he's beaten, he almost always does exactly what Cav did. True that in this instance, he should have been thinking that he needed to place top 3 for his team, but his reaction is the most common reaction for anyone in that situation.

This is true and a good post. Looking at the final again Cav looks and spots Greipel and Sagan go past him then sits up, he doesn't see Fabian until the finish line. He doesn't do himself any favours with his Twitter rants but that's just him.

Don't be rational guys. We don't want that here on the CN forum!

Obviously you are right, but foxxxy prefers to makes things alot worse then they are like plenty here.
Cav is selfish and can be a huge a**hole, but if he knew he was throwing away Martin yellow jersey at that time Im sure he wouldnt let it go. I have no doubt in my mind that Cav truly respects and likes Martin for all he did for him and as his teammate.
He is an emotional guy though, bit of a loony at times.

But at least be humble about it, because a mistake is a mistake. And that was a mistake for not being focused enough.

Absolutely. I'm not going to rationalise his behaviour. Hence the Cav is selfish and can be a huge a**hole.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

Etixx tactics were laughable - they deserved to end up with nothing. They had 6 riders in the group and once the gap was established there was no need for them to commit any more than one rider on the front. Let Sky, Tinkoff and BMC do the work - they've got most to gain - it doesn't matter for anyone else whether it's a 0:30 gap or a 1:30 gap. Instead Lotto actually outnumbered Etixx in the sprint which was ridiculous considering they had half as many riders in that group

bs. 4 etixx riders were leading the pack when Renshaw decided to pass them and the Lotto-BE riders with 800-900mtr to go.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: 2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (16

So what happened to TJVG? By the lack of mention of his name on this thread or in the story I'm assuming he was well back in the order and out of contention

Tejay isn't a contender for the win so I guess nobody really cares?

 

[S2Sturges]

Re: Re:

The thing I'll give Cav is this, in that situation (and lets face it, if you've watched cycling for more than a day, you've see that situation hundreds of times), when the guy in front knows he's beaten, he almost always does exactly what Cav did. True that in this instance, he should have been thinking that he needed to place top 3 for his team, but his reaction is the most common reaction for anyone in that situation.

This is true and a good post. Looking at the final again Cav looks and spots Greipel and Sagan go past him then sits up, he doesn't see Fabian until the finish line. He doesn't do himself any favours with his Twitter rants but that's just him.

Don't be rational guys. We don't want that here on the CN forum!

Obviously you are right, but foxxxy prefers to makes things alot worse then they are like plenty here.
Cav is selfish and can be a huge a**hole, but if he knew he was throwing away Martin yellow jersey at that time Im sure he wouldnt let it go. I have no doubt in my mind that Cav truly respects and likes Martin for all he did for him and as his teammate.
He is an emotional guy though, bit of a loony at times.

But at least be humble about it, because a mistake is a mistake. And that was a mistake for not being focused enough.

Absolutely. I'm not going to rationalise his behaviour. Hence the Cav is selfish and can be a huge a**hole.

Took the words almost right out of my mouth, except add petulant and whining... HIs bottom lip was just about dragging on the ground after the finish, and of course he blames Renshaw.. What would have happened if the whole break had knuckled down and got to work instead of letting Tinkoff beat themselves up... They would have won by 4 minutes, not 1:40 but Etix refused to work, as did the rest, until later in the stage when the DS's radios said the peleton had basically given up for the day and then it was jockeying for the sprint... Andre and Peter are obviously in top form, it would have been beautiful for Sagan to win, but Griepel, to me, is a very popular winner.. Cav, f**k off and go home if you ain't happy...

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

The thing I'll give Cav is this, in that situation (and lets face it, if you've watched cycling for more than a day, you've see that situation hundreds of times), when the guy in front knows he's beaten, he almost always does exactly what Cav did. True that in this instance, he should have been thinking that he needed to place top 3 for his team, but his reaction is the most common reaction for anyone in that situation.

The essence of professionalism is to prioritise what is necessary above what would otherwise be ordinary practice or normal reaction.

Cavendish was incredibly unprofessional.

I donot think he was.
I doubt that when he was sprinting the thought of losing entered his mind at all. He was picturing himself winning easily against the Gorrilla and Sagan and Martins yellow jersey does not enter into the picture at all. Imagine his shock when he sees them passing him and how come he will think about Martin's yellow jersey
There were 3 mistakes. Renshaw led out from 2 far out. Cav sprinted from 2 far out. Cav stopped sprinting. But this has been the story of OPQS failed finales this season.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Re: Re:

The essence of professionalism is to prioritise what is necessary above what would otherwise be ordinary practice or normal reaction.

Cavendish was incredibly unprofessional.

I donot think he was.
I doubt that when he was sprinting the thought of losing entered his mind at all. He was picturing himself winning easily against the Gorrilla and Sagan and Martins yellow jersey does not enter into the picture at all. I

Precisely: his thought process was a total failure to prioritise what was important. To not let the team's main goal enter into his mind is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

You seem to agree with my premise, but not the inevitable conclusion.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Re: 2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (16

So what happened to TJVG? By the lack of mention of his name on this thread or in the story I'm assuming he was well back in the order and out of contention

One of the main plots and intrigues of the day was the split priorities of BMC: not wanting to attack their own rider's yellow jersey, but with 5 men in the split, including their leader, a chance to give his slight GC podium chances a significant boost. They, like Sky, under-contributed to the advantage of the lead group, and may yet rue that in a big way. At least in the case of BMC there was some reason for not making the difference a lot more decisive than it was: they did contribute eventually, but only long after everyone knew that their yellow jersey retention was a dead duck. Will Sky be left wishing that Stannard and/or Thomas had done more to make that 1:28 into something nearer 2 minutes?

 

[seldon71]

Re: 2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (16

So what happened to TJVG? By the lack of mention of his name on this thread or in the story I'm assuming he was well back in the order and out of contention

One of the main plots and intrigues of the day was the split priorities of BMC: not wanting to attack their own rider's yellow jersey, but with 5 men in the split, including their leader, a chance to give his slight GC podium chances a significant boost. They, like Sky, under-contributed to the advantage of the lead group, and may yet rue that in a big way. At least in the case of BMC there was some reason for not making the difference a lot more decisive than it was: they did contribute eventually, but only long after everyone knew that their yellow jersey retention was a dead duck. Will Sky be left wishing that Stannard and/or Thomas had done more to make that 1:28 into something nearer 2 minutes?

I completely get the BMC-rationale of not working against your Maillot Jeune. And as said - they did after it became obvious Dennis is gonna lose it.

For Sky, MAYBE one of Stannard/Thomas could have helped to push the pace, but given how lightweight Dawg is they probably were worried to the end that he will get dropped too... Didn't want to risk too much. Besides, Stannard seems not to be in very good condition - despite not working, he was cooked in the finale.

 

[The Sheep]

Re:

Etixx tactics were laughable - they deserved to end up with nothing. They had 6 riders in the group and once the gap was established there was no need for them to commit any more than one rider on the front. Let Sky, Tinkoff and BMC do the work - they've got most to gain - it doesn't matter for anyone else whether it's a 0:30 gap or a 1:30 gap. Instead Lotto actually outnumbered Etixx in the sprint which was ridiculous considering they had half as many riders in that group

They had the perfect riders (Cav for the stage, Martin for yellow, Uran for GC) in the group of course they should have committed fully to the break. That was not where they *** up.

 

[King Boonen]

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

 

[PeterB]

Re:

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

I disagree. If you have task to defend 3rd place from Cancellara, and you fail due to subjective reason, then you are to blame. That's after all the core of the debate - did Cav fail due to genuine inability to outsprint Cancellara, or did he just give up trying?

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

The stupidity was to start the sprint so early. Martin lost yellow because cav lost the sprint or said differently martin lost yellow because of cav´s stupidity. However cavendish thought that starting the sprint early would increase his chances to win the stage so I would blame him for the mistake itself, martin loosing yellow was only a bad side effect.

 

[Dog]

Re: 2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (16

Martin would have had the yellow jersey if Cavendish won the stage. He didn't win the stage because Mark Renshaw, one of the best and most experienced lead out men in the business, inexplicably overtook two of his own team mates and began leading Cavendish out a very long distance from the line. Cavendish had no option but to start his sprint as soon as Renshaw pulled off and consequently lead Greipel out perfectly.

Do people really think Cavendish had anything other than winning the stage in his mind when he was sprinting? He was almost certainly unaware that Cancellara was following Sagan.

 

[Ludwig's Olaf]

Quit blaming Cavendish. The natural order of the TdF is Cancellara in yellow during week 1. Natur allows minor infractions like the result of the first stage, but has ways to restore order asap.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

I disagree. If you have task to defend 3rd place from Cancellara, and you fail due to subjective reason, then you are to blame. That's after all the core of the debate - did Cav fail due to genuine inability to outsprint Cancellara, or did he just give up trying?

His task was to win the sprint, expecting a sprinter to evaluate what's happening and apply it in the split second they look across and notice they are losing is crazy. I think he probably did give up, because that's his mentality, but I don't think he was thinking "sod Tony, I can't win so I'm not trying" as many here seem to be implying, I think he was purely thinking "I've lost so what's the point in wasting energy". In the split second where it mattered I doubt he even thought about yellow.

The fact remains that if Tony had performed in his specialist discipline he would have been in yellow. He got beat so he wasn't, he only has himself to blame for that. For people to then try and blame Cav is stupid. Both of them failed to perform, Tony probably because the course didn't quite suit him, Cav because his lead-out dropped him off too soon and he was never going to beat power sprinters like Greipel and Sagan from that distance on the front. That's not his fault, even losing isn't his fault, that's just how racing works.

It's a shame for both of them, I like both riders and would also like to see them both perform this Tour and in future Tours.

 

[Cimber]

Re: 2015 Tour de France: Stage 2: Utrecht › Neeltje Jans (16

Jens Voigt
@thejensie
Domestique du jour of yesterday's stage is for me @Benna80 . He made all the splits in first group,gave it all for Alberto and Peter.


Jens Voigt
@thejensie
And as if his day was not hard enough- he punctured and had no chance to come back to the first group.He gave it all for the team! Tough man

 

[happychappy]

Re: Re:

HIs bottom lip was just about dragging on the ground

It works for Martin in time trials! Apart from on Saturday.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

The stupidity was to start the sprint so early. Martin lost yellow because cav lost the sprint or said differently martin lost yellow because of cav´s stupidity. However cavendish thought that starting the sprint early would increase his chances to win the stage so I would blame him for the mistake itself, martin loosing yellow was only a bad side effect.

Martin lost yellow because he failed to win in the discipline he is meant to be the worlds best in. Renshaw led Cav out, unless you know that Cav asked Renshaw to lead him out so soon then your speculation has no basis. I very much doubt Cav thought going early would help him, sticking yourself in the wind against bigger guys for a long sprint is never a good idea.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

If Tony wanted the yellow jersey he should have won it in the first stage. You know, the TT, his speciality.

Blaming Cav for Tony not getting the jersey is beyond stupid.

I disagree. If you have task to defend 3rd place from Cancellara, and you fail due to subjective reason, then you are to blame. That's after all the core of the debate - did Cav fail due to genuine inability to outsprint Cancellara, or did he just give up trying?

His task was to win the sprint, expecting a sprinter to evaluate what's happening and apply it in the split second they look across and notice they are losing is crazy. I think he probably did give up, because that's his mentality, but I don't think he was thinking "sod Tony, I can't win so I'm not trying" as many here seem to be implying, I think he was purely thinking "I've lost so what's the point in wasting energy". In the split second where it mattered I doubt he even thought about yellow.

The fact remains that if Tony had performed in his specialist discipline he would have been in yellow. He got beat so he wasn't, he only has himself to blame for that. For people to then try and blame Cav is stupid. Both of them failed to perform, Tony probably because the course didn't quite suit him, Cav because his lead-out dropped him off too soon and he was never going to beat power sprinters like Greipel and Sagan from that distance on the front. That's not his fault, even losing isn't his fault, that's just how racing works.

It's a shame for both of them, I like both riders and would also like to see them both perform this Tour and in future Tours.

Again disagree. If he was not aware of implications of finishing 3rd ahead of Cancellara, then it is a complete lack of situational awareness which can not be excused, and for which he should be blamed as well. His task should have been finishing on the highest possible podium position whatever the circumstances, and that is what he failed to do (if we admit that he gave up).

How much of this blame is on the DS not stressing this enough on the radio, we don't know.