2016 GP Cyclistes: Québec et Montréal, Sep. 9 and 11

[Anderis]

Also there is worth nothing that the cobbled season ends in April, so it's natural that the cobbled riders will prepare and target for other races in 2nd half of the season. Climbers and hilly classics specialists don't ride cobbles, because they have enough races suited for their speciality all year long.

Also we've seen many times on TdF cobbled stages that some of the climbers can keep up with so called cobbled specialists on cobbles if needed.

It makes little sense to compare riders of different specialities that way. It's not that simple.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Also there is worth nothing that the cobbled season ends in April, so it's natural that the cobbled riders will prepare and target for other races in 2nd half of the season. Climbers and hilly classics specialists don't ride cobbles, because they have enough races suited for their speciality all year long.

Also we've seen many times on TdF cobbled stages that some of the climbers can keep up with so called cobbled specialists on cobbles if needed.

It makes little sense to compare riders of different specialities that way. It's not that simple.

Oh yeah, thats actually a very good argument.

 

[F e r o x]

Re: Re:

Sagan is also returning from illness and back to road racing from MTB.

Swings and roundabouts.

Sagan won 2 days ago a WorldTour-race, Van Avermaet was 2 days before Gent-Wevelgem laying sick in his bed instead of racing one of the most important races of the season for him.

 

[F e r o x]

Re: Re:

Also there is worth nothing that the cobbled season ends in April, so it's natural that the cobbled riders will prepare and target for other races in 2nd half of the season. Climbers and hilly classics specialists don't ride cobbles, because they have enough races suited for their speciality all year long.

Also we've seen many times on TdF cobbled stages that some of the climbers can keep up with so called cobbled specialists on cobbles if needed.

It makes little sense to compare riders of different specialities that way. It's not that simple.

Oh yeah, thats actually a very good argument.

I agree that there shouldn't be any comparison, but the cobbles in de TdF stages are nothing compared with a Paris-Roubaix. It's the length and number of secteurs that makes it so extremely hard.

And also you can't compare a Froome in his peak form agains a classic specialist who had his peak form months earlier.

 

[MacBAir]

I couldn't see the race. Was it great? Did we get a deserved winner?

By the comments it looks like Greg didn't just such Sagan wheel, right? I hope so.

Anyway, this will keep teaching Sagan a lesson and help him improve his shape. He can be stronger than Greg on all terrains.

No one here serious believes that Greg could do anything even remotely similar to the power that Sagan delivered at Ronde or GW.

It's up to Sagan to improve and not be stupid. Eneco and the worlds RR are 2 great opportunities to sick Greg's wheel and to own him too.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Also there is worth nothing that the cobbled season ends in April, so it's natural that the cobbled riders will prepare and target for other races in 2nd half of the season. Climbers and hilly classics specialists don't ride cobbles, because they have enough races suited for their speciality all year long.

Also we've seen many times on TdF cobbled stages that some of the climbers can keep up with so called cobbled specialists on cobbles if needed.

It makes little sense to compare riders of different specialities that way. It's not that simple.

In 2010 a crash happened at the front and the selection was made by that, not the cobbles. The stage really wasn't all that hard. Everybody who was lucky to avoid that crash made it into the final selection. And it was Cancellara who led that group anyway. Had he not been there, others would have gotten back on.

In 2014 yes, Nibali smoked some cobbled classic specialists. The cobbled stage this year was far too light on cobbles to make much of a selection. Paris-Roubaix it was not.

Time and time again climbers/hilly classic specialists are getting beaten by cobbled specialists.

And I wouldn't call Kwiatko a hilly classic specialist and certainly not a climber. The Ronde van Vlaanderen was the race where he first surprised everyone anyway.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

I couldn't see the race. Was it great? Did we get a deserved winner?

By the comments it looks like Greg didn't just such Sagan wheel, right? I hope so.

Anyway, this will keep teaching Sagan a lesson and help him improve his shape. He can be stronger than Greg on all terrains.

No one here serious believes that Greg could do anything even remotely similar to the power that Sagan delivered at Ronde or GW.

It's up to Sagan to improve and not be stupid. Eneco and the worlds RR are 2 great opportunities to sick Greg's wheel and to own him too.

I for one think GVA would have done better than Cancellara, but it would have been hard to contest the win that day against Sagan. He was a monster, but GVA definitely had a chance to win, bigger than Vanmarcke and Canc. Would have been a great duel and probably made the race very different.

 

[Anderis]

Re: Re:

And I wouldn't call Kwiatko a hilly classic specialist and certainly not a climber. The Ronde van Vlaanderen was the race where he first surprised everyone anyway.

You can't say Van Avermaet and Sagan are NOT the hilly classic speciallists and then go and say Kwiatkowski IS cobbled classic specialist. Van Avermaet and Sagan certainly did more trainings with hills in mind than Kwiatkowski with cobbles in the last couple of years. I'm pretty sure it was the ability to sprint after surviving decent amount of climbing, not the cobbles, where Sagan first surprised everyone.

I agree that there shouldn't be any comparison, but the cobbles in de TdF stages are nothing compared with a Paris-Roubaix. It's the length and number of secteurs that makes it so extremely hard.

The same way we can say that Canadian classics are nothing compared with LBL or Lombardia.

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

Sagan is also returning from illness and back to road racing from MTB.

Swings and roundabouts.

Sagan won 2 days ago a WorldTour-race, Van Avermaet was 2 days before Gent-Wevelgem laying sick in his bed instead of racing one of the most important races of the season for him.

When you put it that way, it makes Sagan's achievement even more impressive, to be able to win a WT race after not training for the road and being sick for a week.

 

[Thepirateisgood]

Couldavebeen, shouldavebeen. Good winners and deserved both. Avermaet and Sagan, both great cyclists, some rivalry there of course but not like in your heads.

For the other discussion, Moscon and Benoot will make this discussion in the next years moot. Then with a surprise win from Oss, we will all be thinking, who is the Boss?

And with that somehow Haiku, I bid you all goodnight.

 

[KGB]

Greg took an awful lot of pulls too and is now superior to Sagan whenever the race is hard. The Slovak's absence in Rio is quite significant about the fact he cannot climb anymore. 3 years ago he attacked on Polytech and held through, now he's not able to outsprint Greg. In Quebec Greg was just too badly positioned.

Nope ,today Sagan was just again Sagan and not ala Cancellara or Kwiatkowski riding smart otherwise GVA could be only finished second.

 

[TourOfTexas]

The final 2k was confusing. I thought the break got caught. Then I went back and re-watched and noticed how Peter Vakoc leading the peloton slid out in the turn right as the catch was made and slowed them just enough so the fast guys in the front group could finish first. Best fall ever.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

And I wouldn't call Kwiatko a hilly classic specialist and certainly not a climber. The Ronde van Vlaanderen was the race where he first surprised everyone anyway.

You can't say Van Avermaet and Sagan are NOT the hilly classic speciallists and then go and say Kwiatkowski IS cobbled classic specialist. Van Avermaet and Sagan certainly did more trainings with hills in mind than Kwiatkowski with cobbles in the last couple of years. I'm pretty sure it was the ability to sprint after surviving decent amount of climbing, not the cobbles, where Sagan first surprised everyone.

I agree that there shouldn't be any comparison, but the cobbles in de TdF stages are nothing compared with a Paris-Roubaix. It's the length and number of secteurs that makes it so extremely hard.

The same way we can say that Canadian classics are nothing compared with LBL or Lombardia.

GVA won at the Olympics though, which is a level above LBL or Lombardia.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I am newly a member here...I am a fan of Sagan In San Jose CA and as the race started up the hill My COMCRAP Oooops Comcast modem decided to reboot on me and I missed the finish and only saw the 10 second or so replay of the end of the race.....UGH,
-
I have a question to ask about (not exact as there a differing opinions) the relative importance of the early one day classics. I know Sagan said when he was a kid he was very interested in the Paris-Roubaix (spelling YUK) and would like to know which ones I should keep track of when he races them. Is there an existing thread I could ask in or just use the Sagan thread?

Paris Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Milano San Remo
Gent - Wevelgem
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche

these are spring classics he usually rides. but you can just check his twitter/facebook account. he always posts there when he departs for race.

I take it that, that is the order of importance....Would most agree with the order of importance in general? That is from what you have read here and elsewhere would the order be near what most people think are the most important?

In cycling you have the 5 Monuments, which are considered the 5 most prestigious one-day races.

These are (in chronological order):

Milan-San Remo
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Paris-Roubaix (I would say this one is the most prestigious)
Liège-Bastogne-Liège
Giro di Lombardia

Then you have the World Championships and the Olympics. They're more important than the monuments, but they take place in different countries, with varying routes, with each edition. The Monuments usually stick to the same route for a while or always incorporate the same scenic climbs or cobblestone sectors.

Other important one-day races are Omloop het Nieuwsblad, Strade Bianche, E3 Harelbeke, Gent-Wevelgem, Amstel Gold Race, La Flèche Wallonne, Clasica San Sebastian, the Canadian classics and Paris-Tours.

 

[Echoes]

https://youtu.be/_-EH2mCE-nA?t=44m40s

Look at that again. At 150m to go he was on Sagan's wheel. He lost it there.

Perhaps I'm wrong, yes. Was just an impression watching it live. Anyway, Golden Greg won the bigger race of the two and it's great to see.

And Sagan was back from sickness here. What can you to say about that?

He was already back in Plouay and called it quits after 100k while Greg raced for the win. Sagan does not like cycling. I read multiple interviews about it. He finds it boring, he's not dedicated at all. If he had half the Greg professional conscientiousness, he would already have won Cogoleto-Sanremo and a couple of Strade Bianche.

Greg won a race shortly after being back from his massive Flanders crash.

 

[doperhopper]

well, for sure I'm not alone who said "oh boy, not again" when Sagan began to chase attacks on that climb once Majka faded out (they should save him exactly for these last climbs instead of spending mhim for nothing when there were enough teams eager to pull earlier) ... and made bold armchair prediction "GVA to outsprint sagan on the line"

and from that moment onwards Sagan went back to his old "race controlling" style that costed him so much

yes, we all love him for his "riding for win", but there are mercxian limits... not saying he should wheelsuck all the time, but he has to make others work too, maybe Bora should hire Gerro to provide few wheelsucking lessons, or Spartacus to explain what to do if everyone is riding against you (you know what? fcuk you guys, going back to the team car to fetch some food)

but let's not forget that GVA also contributed to the chase, and also did a monster pull uphill when the peloton connected to the select group that almost caused splits and caught few guys off guard (which was no doubt his intention)... though the effect was that the same select group stayed upfront to the line

 

[MichalJ]

And Sagan was back from sickness here. What can you to say about that?

He was already back in Plouay and called it quits after 100k while Greg raced for the win. Sagan does not like cycling. I read multiple interviews about it. He finds it boring, he's not dedicated at all. If he had half the Greg professional conscientiousness, he would already have won Cogoleto-Sanremo and a couple of Strade Bianche.

Greg won a race shortly after being back from his massive Flanders crash.

He only started to being ill in Plouay. He was in bed for 4 days with illness after Plouay. Quebec was his first race.

And I don't really think that he's not dedicated. Yes, he finds road cycling occasionally boring (mainly sprint stages), but he seems to be training really hard and trying to win more and more.

 

[Jagartrott]

well, for sure I'm not alone who said "oh boy, not again" when Sagan began to chase attacks on that climb once Majka faded out (they should save him exactly for these last climbs instead of spending mhim for nothing when there were enough teams eager to pull earlier) ... and made bold armchair prediction "GVA to outsprint sagan on the line"

and from that moment onwards Sagan went back to his old "race controlling" style that costed him so much

yes, we all love him for his "riding for win", but there are mercxian limits... not saying he should wheelsuck all the time, but he has to make others work too, maybe Bora should hire Gerro to provide few wheelsucking lessons, or Spartacus to explain what to do if everyone is riding against you (you know what? fcuk you guys, going back to the team car to fetch some food)

but let's not forget that GVA also contributed to the chase, and also did a monster pull uphill when the peloton connected to the select group that almost caused splits and caught few guys off guard (which was no doubt his intention)... though the effect was that the same select group stayed upfront to the line

This exactly.
GVA in the past was branded 'dumb' for doing too much work and then not delivering at the line. He learned, still races pro-actively, but will not spend all his energy just to be beaten by someone else. Sagan has more talent (the most in the peloton, probably), but he should also learn to not think he has to do it all by himself. There were 2 Etixx in that group, for example, so surely he could leave some of the chasing to them. But he chose not to, and wasn't so fresh anymore when it mattered.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Anyone but Orica please.

What you got against Orica?
Other than the fact that getting three wins in one day might've been a bit too much.

 

[SKSemtex]

It is better to lose here and learn then in PR 2017 .
It will be always like this, Sagan has to deal with it. It is cycling afterall, where the key of success is to wear our the strongest guy or main opponents. That´s why cycling is so beautiful. Being the strongest is simply not enough and Cance could talk a lot about that.
I liked the race where Sagan refused to do the all work and chasing group failed and he finished second anyway.
His second places are the tax he is paying for being in teams where he is alone in final selection. (this is not the case on Montreal race - his team was one of the strongest there)
Great win for GVA. He is playing his cards smart when he is with Sagan in final selection, he know exactly how much to work. Sagan will learn it too.

 

[MacBAir]

https://youtu.be/_-EH2mCE-nA?t=44m40s

Look at that again. At 150m to go he was on Sagan's wheel. He lost it there.

Perhaps I'm wrong, yes. Was just an impression watching it live. Anyway, Golden Greg won the bigger race of the two and it's great to see.

And Sagan was back from sickness here. What can you to say about that?

He was already back in Plouay and called it quits after 100k while Greg raced for the win. Sagan does not like cycling. I read multiple interviews about it. He finds it boring, he's not dedicated at all. If he had half the Greg professional conscientiousness, he would already have won Cogoleto-Sanremo and a couple of Strade Bianche.

Greg won a race shortly after being back from his massive Flanders crash.

Are you seriously insinuating that it is possible to be a massively successful cyclist right after a major injury without any proper healthy training at all?

 

[janraaskalt3]

Re: Re:

Anyone but Orica please.

What you got against Orica?
Other than the fact that getting three wins in one day might've been a bit too much.

In Montreal they race to get a bunch sprint with Matthews. If I were Orica's DS I would do the same and they're good at it, but for a cycling fan it means the race failed. Like Gerrans win in 2014, which was incredibly good team work, but killed the race.

 

[Echoes]

Front page of the Laatste Nieuws sport extra

Headline says something like "That is then levelled off" (hard to translate).

Greg Van Avermaet put things back in order. He outsprinted Sagan at the Montreal GP. Last Friday, it was still the other way round. The Olympic Champion does not let it happen so easily.

Marc Ghyselinck, the journo, says in substance that Greg always shines when he's not a top favourite (Rio, Montreal, ...), that he still abused of his strength in the final lap which would irritate his friend De Cauwer again (accusations of cheap wins really don't hold) but he proved this season that he could win races (as though he never did before)

I now win the big races. Maybe it took me longer than Sagan to do it but I'm finally where I want to be.

It was a frightfully hard race. In the last lap we needed to give everything to catch Costa back. But it was worth it. There's nothing above sprinting for the win. The difference with Quebec? Very small or nothing. Last Friday, Peter won. Today, I do. It can hardly be better.

Sagan found Montreal harder than Quebec

I was really tired at the finish. I sprinted with cramps.

 

[MacBAir]

Is that an important news publication?

What a f****** great pic! I hope these 2 bring hell to the Worlds RR. If Greg wins, Velo D'or + ORR + WRR + great tour. If Sagan wins, Velo D'or + WRR 2x in a row + Green Jersey + Ronde + Even better tour.

Greg will have a much more powerful team, and Sagan will be forced to chase riders like Tom Boonen left and right.

HOWEVER...

Greg shows that his level is always top, Sagan showed that when he gets in top shape, no matter the terrain, the teams, the circunstantes, he can finish it off solo.

Greg is awesome, but Sagan has everything against him in order to retain that jersey. If he wins, my God...

 

[yaco]

The final 2k was confusing. I thought the break got caught. Then I went back and re-watched and noticed how Peter Vakoc leading the peloton slid out in the turn right as the catch was made and slowed them just enough so the fast guys in the front group could finish first. Best fall ever.

Yes - Definitely hampered Matthews and put him too far down the peleton - Anyway the two best riders won one race each.