2016 TdF, Stage 8: Pau → Bagnères-de-Luchon (184km)

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May 24, 2015
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Zinoviev Letter said:
honzzz said:
Kreuziger seems to be in better form and still has some chance to get on the podium.
Kreuziger is in better form than Contador, but his only chance of a podium will be if half a dozen other GC riders all get crushed under giant inflatable arches.
That might happen.
 
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movingtarget said:
aarononymous said:
It looked like Quintana may have panicked and dropped his bottle when Froome attacked, perhaps he was looking for a teammate as he didn't want to go solo without water? Definitely saw a bottle fall but maybe that was his empty. Of course he would want Bala for support as well.
I think that was the bottle he took, he had one sip and then saw Froome go and threw the bottle away.
The bottle then promptly bounced back off the kerb and could easily have taken out one or more of the group.

Zinoviev Letter said:
Some spectators are extremely annoying, but sooner or later a weedy cyclist punching a civilian is going to get his teeth knocked out in response.
And if a 500g bidon falling among the wheels is potentially dangerous, then a 70kg spectator falling could be catastrophic. Only reason for other spectators to not straightarm the idiots running past them.
 
Kokoso said:
Same reason why Tonton was bashing FDJ for not waiting for Pinot. Wait, what, he didnt? Then don't try to find other reason than unreasonability.
Pinot had a teammate stay with him yesterday, and I was a little uneasy that Seb didn't drop to assist as well. Then last night, Madiot and Pinot made it clear that the goal had changed. So today, no issues for me. And now that it's clear that Reichenbach can top-15 at best, the plan may change...imo nothing comparable to Tinkov's situation, with no less than Contador as the leader. A leader who gets no help whatsoever, see stage 5 and again today. I don't blame Kreuziger for what he did today and remaining a viable GC option. How about telling Majka to stop doing his own thing and help Roman? And telling Bertie that he should stop here, that he's not the leader anymore, that he won't get help. Maybe these talks took place, but that sure isn't Tinkov's party line. It's the team hypocrisy (or what I perceive as hypocrisy) that bothers me.
 
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Beobachter said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Guybrush said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Guybrush said:
Kudos to Meintjes. Also Buchmann, this could be a breakthrough performance at gc level
Why kudos to Buchmann? Seriously, I like the kid, but nobody should get kudos for burying himself to move from 30th to 25th on GC. That's just total insanity. Has someone told him that there's an opening in the sport for a new Francis De Greef?

These are not GC positions anyone should be fighting for, ever.
well, he's a young lad and he is testing himself, nothing wrong with that. Sure he's in the 20's GC group but it's part of a normal learning curve
I'm fine with him testing himself, but by the time today's stage had started he'd already tested himself and come up short on both the prior mountain and the hilly stages and should be well aware that nothing worthwhile is possible on GC. Instead he's burying himself to fight his way from 28th to 23rd with the longer term aim of cracking 20th. None of those positions mean anything. He's fighting to move past riders who are only accidentally up that high because they are their leader's last domestique and aren't even paying attention to their own times.

He should be dumping time, saving energy and then testing himself in the break on climbing stages. That would be a worthwhile test and one that if he passes it brings worthwhile rewards. 23rd place is not a worthwhile reward. It is meaningless. 23rd and 123rd are equally without interest.
He arrived 15th today, this after a real mountain stage. Don't you think he can find some motivation in following the best riders in the best race of the world? Why do you want him to lose on purpose time? He's indeed here to see what he's able of. His final ranking is in no way important; what is important is to see what he will do, until which level he's able to go. It's a normal phase to see if he has a future as GC rider.

You speak about going for stage hunting. But Buchmann is not a rider like that, he has basically no jump at all. His probability of a stage victory is very very low. Especially because he has big troubles if it comes to fight at the beginning, he needs to warm up. And it becomes better and better during the stage. He has always had some troubles at the beginning. Joining a breakaway group is therefore difficult for him, since it doesn't match his qualities.

Let him go as he wants, earning some experience for the future is the thing to do! But losing time on purpose for a rider like him would be one of the most silly thing I've heard recently in a perspective of his development....
He is not some middle aged man taking up marathon running and competing against himself for satisfaction. He's a professional athlete in a sport where, for very good reason, GC places outside the top 10 carry no value. Fighting for places between 30th and 20th tells him nothing of interest and it is frankly absurd to see someone trying to fight for time against immediate rivals who aren't even bothering to keep track of their own times.

You are correct that where he finishes on GC at this point is of no real interest. Which is why I find him fighting for GC spots and to hold on to time so silly. That's all wasted energy that could be targeted at more valuable goals than 20th spot.

I do not agree that Buchmann is incapable of competing for a stage win in a break on a climbers stage. He may well be lacking entirely in explosivity, and that's a disadvantage, but if he can finish 15th on a stage like today he stands a reasonable chance of being the strongest climber in a break. After all, the 14 guys ahead of him aren't going to be in that break. Which means he can potentially win, if he is a bit smart and a bit lucky. How he fares will also tell him more about his own level than whether he overtakes whoever is in 22nd.

I'm not having a go at him because I dislike him. I'm irritated with this goal because I do like him and do not like to see him riding like Francis De Greef's secret son.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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movingtarget said:
He rode well but I don't see him being that strong in the third week and his TT is not as good as it was when he was younger.
I think that holds true for very short TTs, prologues. Problem is as he is not leader he doesnt train TT much.
 
Jun 13, 2016
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LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Unfortunately I have to agree with all of this. Contador is a liability at the moment. Tinkoff is actually having a decent tour: Sagan is on fire as usual, Majka leading the KOM and Kreuziger going well in the GC. This side showing surrounding Contador needs to stop.

Sure, he's the most talented GC rider on the team and the nominal leader. But he's clearly way below the performance level needed, for whatever reason. The team is 100% correct to change their priorities.
Why is he a liability? A waste of bottles, rice cakes and gels or what?
He's just "there". Hanging on at the back trying to lose as little time as possible. I don't see how that qualifies him as a "friggin burden" or a liability.
In his place Sagan or Roman could use a helper.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Tonton said:
Kokoso said:
Same reason why Tonton was bashing FDJ for not waiting for Pinot. Wait, what, he didnt? Then don't try to find other reason than unreasonability.
Pinot had a teammate stay with him yesterday, and I was a little uneasy that Seb didn't drop to assist as well. Then last night, Madiot and Pinot made it clear that the goal had changed. So today, no issues for me. And now that it's clear that Reichenbach can top-15 at best, the plan may change...imo nothing comparable to Tinkov's situation, with no less than Contador as the leader. A leader who gets no help whatsoever, see stage 5 and again today. I don't blame Kreuziger for what he did today and remaining a viable GC option. How about telling Majka to stop doing his own thing and help Roman? And telling Bertie that he should stop here, that he's not the leader anymore, that he won't get help. Maybe these talks took place, but that sure isn't Tinkov's party line. It's the team hypocrisy (or what I perceive as hypocrisy) that bothers me.
I'm sorry I got to far here. But did Contador not have other, say possible, teammate there too? It's a pointless discussion though. Kreuziger's radio wasn't working, it is not his fault nor anyone else probably. Just bad luck.
But if you want to compare the situations leader capability wise, you have healthy Pinot vs. Contador after two falls. Its at least debatable therefore. A leader who gets no help whatsoever - I agree. DS do bad work certainly. Majka should sit there with Contador all the time as DS told before Tour. Contador might still be teams best chance for GC still.
Hypocrisy? I don't know. Maybe they genuinly believed Contador gets back into shape.
 
MacBAir said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Unfortunately I have to agree with all of this. Contador is a liability at the moment. Tinkoff is actually having a decent tour: Sagan is on fire as usual, Majka leading the KOM and Kreuziger going well in the GC. This side showing surrounding Contador needs to stop.

Sure, he's the most talented GC rider on the team and the nominal leader. But he's clearly way below the performance level needed, for whatever reason. The team is 100% correct to change their priorities.
Why is he a liability? A waste of bottles, rice cakes and gels or what?
He's just "there". Hanging on at the back trying to lose as little time as possible. I don't see how that qualifies him as a "friggin burden" or a liability.
In his place Sagan or Roman could use a helper.
So are you saying Tinkoff should have known before the race that Contador would crash twice and would be too injured to play a role in the GC?
 
Aug 16, 2013
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Eclipse said:
LosBrolin said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Dan Martin looked surprisingly strong on the climb. Stayed consistently with Froome, Henao and Quintana when others were yo-yoing.
Exactly. Seems like his move to Andorra and training with longer climbs is really paying off.
Martin is like Porte to me. Can't believe in a 3 week performance until it actually happens
He did decent in the Vuelta of 2014 with 7th place in GC.

Can't see him riding top-5, but top-10 is in the bag (without ilness or crash).
 
I think lot of you just overrate froome attack, it was not great action at all, nice interesting and unpredictable of course, but attack on top climb only to push hard on straight descent is not anything legendarry or memorable and he did not liquidated any concurence by that
 
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bassano said:
I think lot of you just overrate froome attack, it was not great action at all, nice interesting and unpredictable of course, but attack on top climb only to push hard on straight descent is not anything legendarry or memorable and he did not liquidated any concurence by that
I dislike the guy but even so will admit it was one darned Bold Move! No not legendary, but impressive none the less.
 
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bassano said:
I think lot of you just overrate froome attack, it was not great action at all, nice interesting and unpredictable of course, but attack on top climb only to push hard on straight descent is not anything legendarry or memorable and he did not liquidated any concurence by that
One mistake and his tour was over. Pretty memorable if you ask me.
 
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Unfortunately I have to agree with all of this. Contador is a liability at the moment. Tinkoff is actually having a decent tour: Sagan is on fire as usual, Majka leading the KOM and Kreuziger going well in the GC. This side showing surrounding Contador needs to stop.

Sure, he's the most talented GC rider on the team and the nominal leader. But he's clearly way below the performance level needed, for whatever reason. The team is 100% correct to change their priorities.
Why is he a liability? A waste of bottles, rice cakes and gels or what?
He's just "there". Hanging on at the back trying to lose as little time as possible. I don't see how that qualifies him as a "friggin burden" or a liability.
I just meant a liability in terms of stopping the team from getting the most out of the Tour - IF he were to insist on riders like Majka and Kreuziger slaving for him all day.

Of course, if he is prepared to just ride by himself, with no real team support, he's not a liability whatsoever. In fact, if he recovers he could be of great assistance to Sagan, Majka and Kreuziger in their aspirations - and could even get a stage win himself.

At the moment though, he is a liability as a team leader. Most of the team should really get behind Sagan now, with Kreuziger and Majka having free roles to do their thing.
 
Laughable by Movistar whose tactics have been abysmal so far. BMC also cowardly suggesting they know they aren't racing to win overall and are focussing on a podium or top 5.

Thank goodness time bonuses are back. Nobody would have attacked at the top of there wasn't the prospect of a ten second bonus.
 
DFA123 said:
I just meant a liability in terms of stopping the team from getting the most out of the Tour - IF he were to insist on riders like Majka and Kreuziger slaving for him all day.

Of course, if he is prepared to just ride by himself, with no real team support, he's not a liability whatsoever. In fact, if he recovers he could be of great assistance to Sagan, Majka and Kreuziger in their aspirations - and could even get a stage win himself.

At the moment though, he is a liability as a team leader. Most of the team should really get behind Sagan now, with Kreuziger and Majka having free roles to do their thing.
He told Kreuziger to go for GC for himself and clearly Majka already had a free role - what more can he do? Should he start slaving for them or what? :rolleyes:
 
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
I just meant a liability in terms of stopping the team from getting the most out of the Tour - IF he were to insist on riders like Majka and Kreuziger slaving for him all day.

Of course, if he is prepared to just ride by himself, with no real team support, he's not a liability whatsoever. In fact, if he recovers he could be of great assistance to Sagan, Majka and Kreuziger in their aspirations - and could even get a stage win himself.

At the moment though, he is a liability as a team leader. Most of the team should really get behind Sagan now, with Kreuziger and Majka having free roles to do their thing.
He told Kreuziger to go for GC for himself and clearly Majka already had a free role - what more can he do? Should he start slaving for them or what? :rolleyes:
Would be nice if he could put his ego aside and give something back to someone as loyal as Kreuziger. But I don't think we should hold our breath on that.
 
DFA123 said:
Would be nice if he could put his ego aside and give something back to someone as loyal as Kreuziger. But I don't think we should hold our breath on that.
I am sure he will support Kreuziger if he feels he deserves it, like when he rode for Mick at the 2013 Dauphiné. We will see what happens. I personally expect him to ride for himself.
 
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Carols said:
bassano said:
I think lot of you just overrate froome attack, it was not great action at all, nice interesting and unpredictable of course, but attack on top climb only to push hard on straight descent is not anything legendarry or memorable and he did not liquidated any concurence by that
I dislike the guy but even so will admit it was one darned Bold Move! No not legendary, but impressive none the less.
Looks like Sky just uncovered another "marginal gain". They have seen what Sagan did to win his WC and have targeted this stage to pull off a massive surprise using a similar tactic. I can't stand the rider or the team but you gotta hand it to them.
 

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