2016 Vuelta a España, stage 15: Sabiñánigo > Aramón Formigal

[veji11]

Re:

An interesting interview with Scarponi from Frieb. Scarponi was heard raging on the team bus after it apparently fuming that he asked why Astana was working for Froome for 10th. Sounds like Astana really thought with Konig in Grupetto if they caught back G1, Scarponi could be in 5th.

really ? so it was Scarponi asking his guys to work ? Strange...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

Froome got back again at 112,5 to go anyway

where did you see that?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

An interesting interview with Scarponi from Frieb. Scarponi was heard raging on the team bus after it apparently fuming that he asked why Astana was working for Froome for 10th. Sounds like Astana really thought with Konig in Grupetto if they caught back G1, Scarponi could be in 5th.

really ? so it was Scarponi asking his guys to work ? Strange...

what it says there is that scarponi was angry his riders were helping froome

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

An interesting interview with Scarponi from Frieb. Scarponi was heard raging on the team bus after it apparently fuming that he asked why Astana was working for Froome for 10th. Sounds like Astana really thought with Konig in Grupetto if they caught back G1, Scarponi could be in 5th.

really ? so it was Scarponi asking his guys to work ? Strange...

Scarponi said they'd had a terrible start to the stage, missed the break and wanted to make amends. Obviously he took 41 seconds on Froome going after Chaves in the end, so clearly he was up for it.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Froome got back again at 112,5 to go anyway

where did you see that?

Yep he did get back onto G1, but then the crash from the Lotto rider just after he bridges snaps the elastic again like it did on the climb. So that was two critical moments in the race. Elastic snapped on the climb with clash of bars/wheels with Brambill'as attack, Froome chased back on to G1 by 112km, but then elastic snaps again on the descent when Lotto rider (circled ahead) crashes just after he catches back up with Contador. Froome gassed no doubt, can't bridge again with Contador now full-bore. No wonder Contador was pushing so hard lol!

picture upload

 

[hulkhogansknees]

Re: Re:

Froome got back again at 112,5 to go anyway

where did you see that?

Froome closes the gap at 31:31 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqp4nErX48
Just after that Contador makes his attack.

 

[samhocking]

Contador actually sits up when Froome gets back on, but I think the crash was just after series of 3 high speed corners. His team mate is just riding tempo down the descent, then Contador looks back, then attacks on the descent. No doubt one of his team mates radio in to say Froome was off the back with Lotto rider crash. He wasn't just descending fast, Contador was attacking a second time on a descent so it's pretty clear he knew about the crash via radio. This is racing, all good stuff. Chapeu to Froome for not blaming Contador fot attacking from the crash, because that's clearly what happened otherwise why did Contador give up when Froome got back and go again on the descent, where typically you can't make up any time if Froome is simply in the wheels behind in same group anyway?

 

[deValtos]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 15: Sabiñánigo > Aramón Form

Just watched the video, you can see the Lotto Jumbo rider who crashed in 15th position on the descent with Froome a few wheels behind.

Unsurprisingly the breakaway was formed of 14 riders.

 

[samhocking]

Looks like G2 actually overtook Froome on the descent after the crash because Froome is basically in G1 at first corner of the descent, then near the back of G2 after the descent. At the time I really didn't understand how he ended up losing 30 seconds on the descent, but we never saw the crash, so it makes sense now what happened.

 

[bikinggirl]

One of the best stages ever seen, but why will other team riders allow Froome to sit in third or fourth position for a long period of time and let them do all the chasing. Look at the front group you saw Qiantana and Contador in the front. Froome has becomes such an arrogant rider the last few years, I cant stand it. We all know that the SKY team screved up big time and Froome was sitting there complete helpless and didn't know what to do. Again the officials supported the SKY team and others by letting all remaining riders stay in the race. A rule is a rule but not for UCI when it don't fit they narrative.

 

[bikinggirl]

Re:

So again Quintana goes against the unwritten rules like in the Giro

Rubbish!

 

[samhocking]

Froome bridged upto Contador group. Without the Lotto rider crashing, everything would have come back together or assuming Chaves and Yates didn't bridge, probably they would have carried on an we'd all be saying Orica majorly screwed up. Racing is random, you can't just look at the TV and decide what happened, you have to piece it together from DS and rider interviews, then go back and look at the footage. As it turned, Froome had two team mates with him, same as Contador, same as Quintana, but the crash meant his race was over when Contador attacked because of it.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Froome bridged upto Contador group. Without the Lotto rider crashing, everything would have come back together or assuming Chaves and Yates didn't bridge, probably they would have carried on an we'd all be saying Orica majorly screwed up. Racing is random, you can't just look at the TV and decide what happened, you have to piece it together from DS and rider interviews, then go back and look at the footage. As it turned, Froome had two team mates with him, same as Contador, same as Quintana, but the crash meant his race was over when Contador attacked because of it.

He was too far back anyway. The pace was frantic and crappy positioning is his fault. GC contenders and DS's with even average cycling intelligence knew that there was high possibility of a high pace and attacks early, the Orica DS even singled out Contador for making a move. If you don't position yourself and your team well for it, there is always a very high chance of crashes, splits due to one or two not holding a wheel or general hold ups. Froome and Sky *** up. He knows it, sky knows it.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Froome bridged upto Contador group. Without the Lotto rider crashing, everything would have come back together or assuming Chaves and Yates didn't bridge, probably they would have carried on an we'd all be saying Orica majorly screwed up. Racing is random, you can't just look at the TV and decide what happened, you have to piece it together from DS and rider interviews, then go back and look at the footage. As it turned, Froome had two team mates with him, same as Contador, same as Quintana, but the crash meant his race was over when Contador attacked because of it.

And this is what makes road cycling great : when randomness peeks in and throws the best laid plans in the gutter. This is also why there needs to be this constant resistance against instruments of control of the race. The more randomness and initiative can make it work the better.

Yesterday's stage worked like those stages up to the 60s where leaders would attack on the flat and all out war would result in some climbers or wannabes being thrown far far away from the Coppis and Anquetils...

 

[DanielSong39]

It's apparent that Sky just wasn't strong enough on this stage; otherwise they would've been able to bridge the gap after the crash and also pace Froome closer to the front of the peloton. Instead they were dropped and were left in the grupetto.

At the end of the day cycling is a team sport and on this day, Sky just wasn't good enough. It happens.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Froome bridged upto Contador group. Without the Lotto rider crashing, everything would have come back together or assuming Chaves and Yates didn't bridge, probably they would have carried on an we'd all be saying Orica majorly screwed up. Racing is random, you can't just look at the TV and decide what happened, you have to piece it together from DS and rider interviews, then go back and look at the footage. As it turned, Froome had two team mates with him, same as Contador, same as Quintana, but the crash meant his race was over when Contador attacked because of it.

He was too far back anyway. The pace was frantic and crappy positioning is his fault. GC contenders and DS's with even average cycling intelligence knew that there was high possibility of a high pace and attacks early, the Orica DS even singled out Contador for making a move. If you don't position yourself and your team well for it, there is always a very high chance of crashes, splits due to one or two not holding a wheel or general hold ups. Froome and Sky **** up. He knows it, sky knows it.

I'm not saying they didn't screw up, i'm saying Contador's attack worked because he attacked Froome after finding out he was delayed by the Lotto rider crashing. Froome was already in Contadors group at the start of the descent Contador ended up attacking on for the second time. Race radio made the day so much more exciting because Contador knew both times when Froome's elastic snapped and let not forget Chaves's and Yate's too!

 

[TourOfSardinia]

This was the point when Sky failed with 3 men (CF included) to pull back the break.

 

[DanielSong39]

Attacks were nonstop in the first 10 km. Someone would've attacked until a breakaway group formed...

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

I'm not saying they didn't screw up, i'm saying Contador's attack worked because he attacked Froome after finding out he was delayed by the Lotto rider crashing. Froome was already in Contadors group at the start of the descent Contador ended up attacking on for the second time. Race radio made the day so much more exciting because Contador knew both times Froome's elastic snapped.

what matters is that attacking begets action : Contador attacked and attacked again, this put Froome in a difficult situation because he was too far back, he managed to bridge once but because of the tension of all this attacks there was a fall in front of him and because he was still too far back, he got caught when the elastic broke.

This is what some fanboys (I am not saying you, I aim at others here) who than go whining around "meh Quintana/Contador took advantage of a crash/puncture/fall/red flag, how unsportsman" have to understand. It's attacking and counterattacking that creates stress, panic, high speed descents, etc, which can provoke mistakes and this is what you are aiming at. Mistakes from you opponents. Them being too far back and caught out when the elastic breaks, them not being able to follow you in the descent (sometimes because they hit a snowbank), them bein isolated, etc... This is what Contador and Quintana managed to do.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

This was the point when Sky failed with 3 men (CF included) to pull back the break.

Yep, Sky played the game taking it easy at that point thinking other teams would help but then when it was too late and nobody helped it was basically 2 sky riders vs the whole of Contadors group. Gap yoyod a bit with the odd bit of help from Orica & Astana, but I would say less riders were comitted in G2 than in G1 and simply a game of numbers. I was surprised how little Orica did at this point in the race. It cost them dearly too not working with sky at this point.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

it didn't cost orica deerly at all. chaves lost no place in gc and he will easily cook contador looking at how chaves rode that final climb up compared to contador

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

I'm not saying they didn't screw up, i'm saying Contador's attack worked because he attacked Froome after finding out he was delayed by the Lotto rider crashing. Froome was already in Contadors group at the start of the descent Contador ended up attacking on for the second time. Race radio made the day so much more exciting because Contador knew both times Froome's elastic snapped.

what matters is that attacking begets action : Contador attacked and attacked again, this put Froome in a difficult situation because he was too far back, he managed to bridge once but because of the tension of all this attacks there was a fall in front of him and because he was still too far back, he got caught when the elastic broke.

This is what some fanboys (I am not saying you, I aim at others here) who than go whining around "meh Quintana/Contador took advantage of a crash/puncture/fall/red flag, how unsportsman" have to understand. It's attacking and counterattacking that creates stress, panic, high speed descents, etc, which can provoke mistakes and this is what you are aiming at. Mistakes from you opponents. Them being too far back and caught out when the elastic breaks, them not being able to follow you in the descent (sometimes because they hit a snowbank), them bein isolated, etc... This is what Contador and Quintana managed to do.

Totally agree, though the forum does not really think certain guy who made this happen is a worthy winner just because he doesn't seem to have the right spanish name

 

[bambino]

Re:

it didn't cost orica deerly at all. chaves lost no place in gc and he will easily cook contador looking at how chaves rode that final climb up compared to contador

Have to agree on this one. Sky was the only really big loser yesterday.

 

[dusty red roads]

Thanks for the info Samhocking I still don't understand why Orica didn't have live pictures if other teams did. They should be able to plug into spanish feeds, the DS speaks Spanish, so I'd imagine he'd want video asap...... strange!

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 15: Sabiñánigo > Aramón Form

@Samhocking
Froome catches the group in front.
Then 20 seconds later Contador attacks.
And another 40 seconds later the descent starts.

Therefore Froome was at the wheel of the Lotto rider one minute before the crucial gap opened. The infamous Lotto rider was hanging at the back so if his crash held up Froome the crash happened directly after Froome caught him, which I find very unlikely since they were riding at a relatively low pace on a flat street. Maybe the Lotto guy crashed later and Froome was caught behind him because he didn't ride past him, but if you enter a descent on the last position you really must not complain if a gap opens up.

Moreover at the beginning of the descent you can see that there still isn't a gap because you can see riders in the group which later weren't there anymore but Froome was not one of them. Therefore the gap didn't open directly in front of Froome and whatever happened with the Lotto guy it probybly wasn't decisive.