2016 Vuelta a España, stage 15: Sabiñánigo > Aramón Formigal

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Can't see where Valverde was. Just pulled two screens of the descent though. In the first shot there's rider pretty much strung out all the way back as far as you can see with not more than 10m gaps, but second shows that line clearly split and all riders of G1 are formed. From this point they get organised and everyone pushes with Contador.
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Anyway, end of day Contador pushed it, Froome bad position, but ultimately somewhere the elastic snapped on the descent from someone crashing or simply fatigue until we know more, but two DSs have said it was a crash, so we go with that I guess.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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samhocking said:
Can't see where Valverde was. Just pulled two screens of the descent though. In the first shot there's rider pretty much strung out all the way back as far as you can see with not more than 10m gaps, but second shows that line clearly split and all riders of G1 are formed. From this point they get organised and everyone pushes with Contador.
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Anyway, end of day Contador pushed it, Froome bad position, but ultimately somewhere the elastic snapped on the descent from someone crashing or simply fatigue until we know more, but two DSs have said it was a crash, so we go with that I guess.

Indeed, but what matters, and I think we both agree on the matter, is that talking about sportsmanship or else in this matter is bogus : Contador and Tinkoff wanted to attack and creat chaos, and Froome and the Sky were caught napping and paid the price. Were they falls at key junctures ? Probably. Could they have caught a lucky break which would have brought the whole initiative to naught ? Most certainly, it's what happens most of the time. But here it didn't and ultimately it was their bad positioning that did them both : Froome because he wasn't with Quintana, and his teammates who were so far back they never managed to come in the second group and help.
 
Sure, I thought it was a fantastic attack from Contador at the time, but I couldn't work out how G1 formed so quickly on the descent, so just trying to piece together what happened and how it happened. When Cioni said there was a crash in his interview yesterday I wondered if this is what caused it and it looks like it contributed to splitting Froome off. You're right though, Froome messed up on the very first climb and the rest he was playing catchup against a very alert Tinkoff DS. In a way it makes his attack even more sweet now knowing he didn't attack because of the crash, but before it.
 
Split happened between Felline (last one to make it in Top14) and Caja Rural rider whomever it was...

That front group which Froome reached with a very tough jump and dragging few other guys with him (an Orica, Movistar, Katusha & BMC) was still 40-rider strong. Contador started immediately to stretch it again (with Froome still at least 20 places too far down) and elastic broke few corners later. Definitely a move which stealthily developed to a deciding one and which many riders didn't feel like going to limit to follow during 1st 30 seconds...

Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...

To be exact : Contador accelerates at 112,0 to go and the line forms in an order of :

Contador-Cannondale-Brambilla-Castroviejo-Trofinov-delaCruz-Fernandez-Rovny-Quintana-Fraile-Elissonde-2nd Cannondale-Felline. Especially the last three guys push hard to get into the move while a lonely Sky rider (size says it is Puccio) lets himself float backwards (towards Froome I guess).

500 meters later (in a tough, slow corner) it is all in single line, but you can still make that Caja Rural rider and one more in red uniform coming out of the corner right behind Felline. Corner later (as Contador reaccelerates) there is already some air there and then at 111,1 km to go, one already sees a clear 20 meter gap. Fat lady had sung.
 
Thanks Tonton, laurensde+.

The first gap was definitely helped along by a couple of Movis deliberately losing the wheel. The second gap is less clear, but a Lotto rider swerving and losing wheels on a descent certainly plays to a stereotype. Although by the description of the incident occurring in the neutral zone, what the "bump" might really explain why Froome so far back when that first spit happened.

But you can clearly see Nairo going up to the front whilst Froome was a little behind shortly before that first gap. Why Froome didn't follow that, and why he didn't go to the front on as soon as he closed that gap is anyone's guess. I would think that he was starting to tire and his DS was telling him that teammates where on the way. So he decided to quit burning himself closing gaps thinking, somewhat correctly, that expending so much energy early would hurt him at the end.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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seldon71 said:
Split happened between Felline (last one to make it in Top14) and Caja Rural rider whomever it was...

That front group which Froome reached with a very tough jump and dragging few other guys with him (an Orica, Movistar, Katusha & BMC) was still 40-rider strong. Contador started immediately to stretch it again (with Froome still at least 20 places too far down) and elastic broke few corners later. Definitely a move which stealthily developed to a deciding one and which many riders didn't feel like going to limit to follow during 1st 30 seconds...

Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...

To be exact : Contador accelerates at 112,0 to go and the line forms in an order of :

Contador-Cannondale-Brambilla-Castroviejo-Trofinov-delaCruz-Fernandez-Rovny-Quintana-Fraile-Elissonde-2nd Cannondale-Felline. Especially the last three guys push hard to get into the move while a lonely Sky rider (size says it is Puccio) lets himself float backwards (towards Froome I guess).

500 meters later (in a tough, slow corner) it is all in single line, but you can still make that Caja Rural rider and one more in red uniform coming out of the corner right behind Felline. Corner later (as Contador reaccelerates) there is already some air there and then at 111,1 km to go, one already sees a clear 20 meter gap. Fat lady had sung.
Thanks.. i love it how races can be decided in a very small moment like this : will the gap form, will it stick ? And it's gone !
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Escarabajo said:
If the crash was a product of Contador pushing hard then it is fair game.

It's fair game anyhow ! crashes happen, punctures happen, mechanicals happen, they have always happened, the very possibility they might happen and have disproportionate consequences is fair game. They are part of the essence of road cycling. Once we start getting all moral about what is or not fair game, the march towards a wattage contest becomes faster.

EDIT : damn Hrotha got there first.
 
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seldon71 said:
Split happened between Felline (last one to make it in Top14) and Caja Rural rider whomever it was...

That front group which Froome reached with a very tough jump and dragging few other guys with him (an Orica, Movistar, Katusha & BMC) was still 40-rider strong. Contador started immediately to stretch it again (with Froome still at least 20 places too far down) and elastic broke few corners later. Definitely a move which stealthily developed to a deciding one and which many riders didn't feel like going to limit to follow during 1st 30 seconds...

Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...

To be exact : Contador accelerates at 112,0 to go and the line forms in an order of :

Contador-Cannondale-Brambilla-Castroviejo-Trofinov-delaCruz-Fernandez-Rovny-Quintana-Fraile-Elissonde-2nd Cannondale-Felline. Especially the last three guys push hard to get into the move while a lonely Sky rider (size says it is Puccio) lets himself float backwards (towards Froome I guess).

500 meters later (in a tough, slow corner) it is all in single line, but you can still make that Caja Rural rider and one more in red uniform coming out of the corner right behind Felline. Corner later (as Contador reaccelerates) there is already some air there and then at 111,1 km to go, one already sees a clear 20 meter gap. Fat lady had sung.

Well spotted with Felline. Red rider behind him is perhaps Sande then? I don't think the gap back to next rider behind the red(Sande) rider was that far though, maybe 5m. At speed on the descent riders behind would have had to slam on the brakes and caused a compression in the line. It definitely helped the Contador push just break that last thread of elastic between him and Froome.
Love working out what happens like this. We're lucky there was some good TV coverage from the air and the ground at this point to piece it all together as normally there's not.
 
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seldon71 said:
Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...
And guess who else was also wearing a green jersey - that might have been confused for a Caja Rural:
Valverde - perhaps he just let go as he said on TV.
 
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TourOfSardinia said:
seldon71 said:
Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...
And guess who else was also wearing a green jersey - that might have been confused for a Caja Rural:
Valverde - perhaps he just let go as he said on TV.

No confusion. Look at 32:31 to 32:38 of that oft-referred full broadcast video. Definitely Caja Rural-rider. Behind him are David Lopez, an AG2R and a Lampre. Then Valverde.

Few seconds later (32:52) the line of riders are moving towards downhill and a 1st corner. Still a Caja Rural at 15th spot and the Lampre guy follows him. Then you get the last glimpse of them coming out of that 1st tighter corner (33:16). No gap yet.

But out of the 2nd of those tight corners (right where Contador re-accelerates) you will only see Felline anymore (at 33:28). There is a little bit of empty air behind Felline and no following wheel appears in picture.

Then another 15 seconds later (33:43) you can clearly count all 14 "selection" guys having maneuvered next little bend and roughly 20 meters gap after them. Yes, the top 14 are also slightly split in 3 groups - 1st you get the trio of Contador, Moser? & Brambilla. Then you got 7 riders (Movistar-trio, DelaCruz, Tinkoff-helpers and Mamykin) and then you have another 4 fighting to get back (Fraile, Elissonde, Formolo, Felline).

If Valverde has "just let it slip" it probably means one of two things (or both?).

1) he didn't desperately jump past CajaRural & Lampre when that slight gap 1st formed
2) he ended up at helm of 2nd group after those ahead lost the slipstream of Felline and looked for help. In that point Bala didn't "ride"...

Froome hardly COULD have been any higher than 30th/35th position when speed raised and single line formed. Lopez and originally even Puccio WERE in position to go with the move, but on key moment they rather slipped back toward their captain rather than fought to keep it altogether...

P.S. So this also proves that the mishap of Tosh v.d.Sande DID NOT influence the splitting of the group. It MAY HAVE caused some delay and confusion in reaction of the end-half of the group, but Tosh wasn't close to split-action.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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samhocking said:
seldon71 said:
Split happened between Felline (last one to make it in Top14) and Caja Rural rider whomever it was...

That front group which Froome reached with a very tough jump and dragging few other guys with him (an Orica, Movistar, Katusha & BMC) was still 40-rider strong. Contador started immediately to stretch it again (with Froome still at least 20 places too far down) and elastic broke few corners later. Definitely a move which stealthily developed to a deciding one and which many riders didn't feel like going to limit to follow during 1st 30 seconds...

Tosh v.d. Sande may well have gone down and bothered some people at the back end of that group, but it had nothing to do with the split itself. Split happened as a Caja Rural (Arroyo/Carthy/Pardilla/Roson?) couldn't hang to the backwheel of Felline...

To be exact : Contador accelerates at 112,0 to go and the line forms in an order of :

Contador-Cannondale-Brambilla-Castroviejo-Trofinov-delaCruz-Fernandez-Rovny-Quintana-Fraile-Elissonde-2nd Cannondale-Felline. Especially the last three guys push hard to get into the move while a lonely Sky rider (size says it is Puccio) lets himself float backwards (towards Froome I guess).

500 meters later (in a tough, slow corner) it is all in single line, but you can still make that Caja Rural rider and one more in red uniform coming out of the corner right behind Felline. Corner later (as Contador reaccelerates) there is already some air there and then at 111,1 km to go, one already sees a clear 20 meter gap. Fat lady had sung.

Well spotted with Felline. Red rider behind him is perhaps Sande then? I don't think the gap back to next rider behind the red(Sande) rider was that far though, maybe 5m. At speed on the descent riders behind would have had to slam on the brakes and caused a compression in the line. It definitely helped the Contador push just break that last thread of elastic between him and Froome.
Love working out what happens like this. We're lucky there was some good TV coverage from the air and the ground at this point to piece it all together as normally there's not.

Behind Felline were Caja Rural rider, Sky (Lopez/Puccio), Lampre, AG2R and Valverde. Van der Sande was further back
 
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samhocking said:
Contador actually sits up when Froome gets back on, but I think the crash was just after series of 3 high speed corners. His team mate is just riding tempo down the descent, then Contador looks back, then attacks on the descent. No doubt one of his team mates radio in to say Froome was off the back with Lotto rider crash. He wasn't just descending fast, Contador was attacking a second time on a descent so it's pretty clear he knew about the crash via radio. This is racing, all good stuff. Chapeu to Froome for not blaming Contador fot attacking from the crash, because that's clearly what happened otherwise why did Contador give up when Froome got back and go again on the descent, where typically you can't make up any time if Froome is simply in the wheels behind in same group anyway?

Froome didn't crash though and how can Contador's teammates communicate with him via radio? They are two-way back to the car not to each person.
 
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So, I was watching the video last night, but it was late and I was tired. What I wondered, was when the camera cut to froome bridging with two movis on his wheel, was that definitely the first group he was bridging to? I assumed it was, but then watching the rest of the playback, he never actually appears to be in the front group at any point, and it struck me he might have actually been bridging to group 2?

As I say I was tired and only watched it once, so thought I'd ask here as some of you have watched back a few times!
 
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veji11 said:
Escarabajo said:
If the crash was a product of Contador pushing hard then it is fair game.

It's fair game anyhow ! crashes happen, punctures happen, mechanicals happen, they have always happened, the very possibility they might happen and have disproportionate consequences is fair game. They are part of the essence of road cycling. Once we start getting all moral about what is or not fair game, the march towards a wattage contest becomes faster.

EDIT : damn Hrotha got there first.

Exactly, fair game. Crashes happen, Punctures happen. Like in Giro 2015. The only difference is that only some riders are allowed to push and attack after those happen according to this forum.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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bambino said:
veji11 said:
Escarabajo said:
If the crash was a product of Contador pushing hard then it is fair game.

It's fair game anyhow ! crashes happen, punctures happen, mechanicals happen, they have always happened, the very possibility they might happen and have disproportionate consequences is fair game. They are part of the essence of road cycling. Once we start getting all moral about what is or not fair game, the march towards a wattage contest becomes faster.

EDIT : damn Hrotha got there first.

Exactly, fair game. Crashes happen, Punctures happen. Like in Giro 2015. The only difference is that only some riders are allowed to push and attack after those happen according to this forum.

If only there had been live TV coverage and internet forums in previous glorious decades, there would have been so much debate about that "weasel of Anquetil taking advantage of the puncture" etc....
 
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RownhamHill said:
So, I was watching the video last night, but it was late and I was tired. What I wondered, was when the camera cut to froome bridging with two movis on his wheel, was that definitely the first group he was bridging to? I assumed it was, but then watching the rest of the playback, he never actually appears to be in the front group at any point, and it struck me he might have actually been bridging to group 2?

As I say I was tired and only watched it once, so thought I'd ask here as some of you have watched back a few times!

Yes, he bridges to the 1st group, but that group was exactly 40 riders strong at that point. (I calculated them from camera angle between 30:39-30:48 of the video). Froome bridges with 4 other riders and obviously there are more jumpers immediately after as that group apparently had swollen upto minimum of 61 riders after the split (71 riders who made the cut + Dave Lopez + Bewley + Puccio + Tosh vd Sande - 14 riders in the 1st group).

Obviously no one managed to bridge from G3 after Lopez&Puccio started the futile chase and I'm doubtful there were joiners from in-between land either. G3 was driven by Sky-quartet until they gave up some 25 km later.

Froome reached the end of G1 at 31:59 (and had to go to the limit for 28 seconds to make that jump. It was a serious effort), Contador makes his 1st interjection of pace 19 seconds later (see the effort Moser makes to catch Conta's wheel), G1 (minimum of 45 riders at that point) forms a single-line (with Froome definitely still close to the bottom end of it) and Contador's 2nd acceleration (exactly a minute after the 1st) breaks the elastic.

Froome had ABSOLUTELY no chance to get close enough to make the split in the front.

31:31-31:59 he makes the jump
31:59-32:18 he recovers from the jump
32:18-32:58 Contador's 1st acceleration (see how riders fight to stay in each other's wheels, there is small gap from Brambilla to Castroviejo aka between the 3rd and 4th at 32:54)
32:58-33:23 Contador maneuveurs two tight corners
33:23-33:43 Contador's 2nd accelaration - takes only 20 seconds to create the gap.

Froome had 19 seconds to pass some 25 riders WHILE at least slightly on the red from his jump in order to be in position to react. No one can be expected to do that - especially as you don't feel threatened at that point. You had just neutralised a dangerous move, after all...

After Contador 1st accelerates it takes 1 minute 25 seconds before split is actual. During those 1 min 25 seconds there is basically no moment where you can move up in the pack - either the speed of the pack is too hard or corners are too tight.

As a conclusion # 1 - while Tosh van der Sande may well have fallen in front of Froome, that had no influence in creating a split nor in Contador's attacks. Even if Tosh went down in the 1st of those two tight corners he hardly would have entered it (think how long the line was) by the time Contador accelerated out of next. There was NO use of crash - not intentional nor unintentional. To be exact - Rider # 15 is 6 seconds behind Contador in that corner. Based on what we see of earlier positioning, Lotto-Soudals were close to the end of the group which means that Tosh is likely 12 to 15 seconds behind in that corner. Guess what - Contador's 2nd acceleration comes 13 seconds after he comes out of the 1st corner. If you really think that the info of someone crashing solo at the end of 40-50 man group out of camera sight would reach Contador's ear in ONE second and be a cause of action taken... Then you are an hopeless idiot. Especially as more likely the 2nd acceleration has even happened a second or two BEFORE Tosh crashed (not that those things had any cause-effect either way) - the rider at the latter half of the G1 could not possibly yet see or see a reaction to that 2nd acceleration. Completely independent racing incidents which only happened about simultaneously.

As a conclusion # 2 - during the time frame of the attack described above there was NOTHING Froome could have done to prevent the 14 to slip away. He was in helpless position. The race is actually decided at around 26:04-26:45 of the video. Camera brilliantly happens to pick up 1st Froome (who appears to be adjusting his power meter and is completely unaware of his surroundings while located deep in a pack) and then Quintana (who is making a push up in the pack in case something is brewing up). Sure enough 20 seconds later several splits appear and after that Froome is always behind the play, no matter what he tries...
 
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seldon71 said:
RownhamHill said:
So, I was watching the video last night, but it was late and I was tired. What I wondered, was when the camera cut to froome bridging with two movis on his wheel, was that definitely the first group he was bridging to? I assumed it was, but then watching the rest of the playback, he never actually appears to be in the front group at any point, and it struck me he might have actually been bridging to group 2?

As I say I was tired and only watched it once, so thought I'd ask here as some of you have watched back a few times!

Yes, he bridges to the 1st group . . . Sure enough 20 seconds later several splits appear and after that Froome is always behind the play, no matter what he tries...

Thanks for the info - what you've just said is also borne out by the story on Froome's press conference today, he says he thinks there was a small crash in front that hampered the chase efforts, but he didn't actually see it, so he must have been a long way back at that point!
 
Just love the say it without words montage they put up on http://www.steephill.tv

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