2017 Liège-Bastogne-Liège - April 23rd - 258k

[Escarabajo]

LOL. Cobbles, sterrato, what else?

Cross rivers with crocodiles?

Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL.

Hey, why don't we make it a cobbles classic and be done with it!!!

 

[hfer07]

Re:

LOL. Cobbles, sterrato, what else?

Cross rivers with crocodiles?
Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL.
Hey, why don't we make it a cobbles classic and be done with it!!!

I Agree with you mostly BUT there are two options the organizers have not tried yet that could improve dramatically the Ardennes racing quality: reduce number of riders per team down to 6 & lengthening the race by another 40k

 

[therhodeo]

I wish they would reduce team sizes across the board so that one definitely gets my vote.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

That race was awful. That climb had nothing to do with the rest of the course at all, it was completely out of place. It took away any action on Saint Nicholas and Roche and Redoute (not helped by the headwind) and forced it all on a small climb 3km before the finish. That didn't help the excitement, in fact that reduced it. And sure there was a 4 man group at the front, but the main pack of riders finished with 17 riders st.

 

[GraftPunk]

I think one reason why there was so much disappointment among fans about this race is that the bar for epic monuments/classics has been set pretty high this year. We're lucky to have seen the quality that we have, and in comparison LBL just wasn't going to be the belle of the ball. YMMV.

 

[Billie]

the problem is not the hills. It's the road that are too wide

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

LOL. Cobbles, sterrato, what else?

Cross rivers with crocodiles?
Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL.
Hey, why don't we make it a cobbles classic and be done with it!!!

I Agree with you mostly BUT there are two options the organizers have not tried yet that could improve dramatically the Ardennes racing quality: reduce number of riders per team down to 6 & lengthening the race by another 40k

Smaller team sizes would help dramatically. The longer distance might end up with more conservative riding and the same winner I am afraid.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re:

the problem is not the hills. It's the road that are too wide

Yeah this is an important factor that is often overlooked. The narrow roads in the cobbled classic and for instance Amstel play a big role.

Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL

You mean like with Amstel?

Do you really think Movistar and Quickstep would allow a 40 man sprint on the flat? 260km full of hills, but Valverde, Martin, Kwiatkowski riding for super strong teams won't be able to drop the sprinters? Do you really believe that?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

the problem is not the hills. It's the road that are too wide

Yeah this is an important factor that is often overlooked. The narrow roads in the cobbled classic and for instance Amstel play a big role.

Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL

You mean like with Amstel?

Do you really think Movistar and Quickstep would allow a 40 man sprint on the flat? 260km full of hills, but Valverde, Martin, Kwiatkowski riding for super strong teams won't be able to drop the sprinters? Do you really believe that?

I was exaggerating. But it can happen. It just depends on the riders TBH. This year Amstel was different. But there is not warranty of this happening again.

There are all kind of classics and there is a reason for it. We cannot turn LBL into Amstel or MSR, or FW into LBL, or Lombardia into a queen stage and so on!!

every classic has its place.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

the problem is not the hills. It's the road that are too wide

Yeah this is an important factor that is often overlooked. The narrow roads in the cobbled classic and for instance Amstel play a big role.

Once they get rid of the final climbs we'll see a 40 riders sprint and a second class sprinter winning the race. LOL

You mean like with Amstel?

Do you really think Movistar and Quickstep would allow a 40 man sprint on the flat? 260km full of hills, but Valverde, Martin, Kwiatkowski riding for super strong teams won't be able to drop the sprinters? Do you really believe that?

I was exaggerating. But it can happen. It just depends on the riders TBH. This year Amstel was different. But there is not warranty of this happening.

There are all kind of classics and there is a reason for it. We cannot turn LBL into Amstel or MSR, or FW into LBL, or Lombardia into a queen stage and so on!!

every classic has its place.

Yeah LBL shouldn't be like Amstel, but then again Amstel only changed its route this year. It's not like this years AGR was a typical edition compared with the last years so hard climbs only far away from the finish and flat last kilometers aren't exactly trademarks for AGR.

 

[Red Rick]

How the Amstel, with 0 climbs that are over 1km and over 7% can ever directly be seen as the same thing as Liege Bastogne Liege is beyond me

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

DFA, do you really think any 'sprinters' would survive if Movistar, Quickstep and Sky rode full gas between 100km and 50km to go on a route like this (only drawn from Bastogne):

That's 6 proper climbs:
Ferme Libert (1.2km @ 12.4%)
Stockeu (2.3km @ 9.7%)
Wanneranval (1.7km @ 8.4%)
Thier de Coo (1.8km @ 10.6%)
Haute Levée (3.8km @ 5.4%)
Le Rosier (3.9km @ 6.1%)

Matthews (and a 50 rider big peloton) won't survive that if the hammer is dropped. They certainly wouldn't have anything left in their legs after Redoute, so there won't be a peloton to chase any attackers.

Use this. Then you can even drop the Redoute and RaF and replace them by easier hills. Or not.

Or alternate *** routes.

Mix it up.

Make the race harder to read.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

That race was awful. That climb had nothing to do with the rest of the course at all, it was completely out of place. It took away any action on Saint Nicholas and Roche and Redoute (not helped by the headwind) and forced it all on a small climb 3km before the finish. That didn't help the excitement, in fact that reduced it. And sure there was a 4 man group at the front, but the main pack of riders finished with 17 riders st.

Don't forget 2016 was bitterly cold with snow on the route - People complain there is no action on Saint Nicholas, Redoubte etc - Because the peleton rode so slowly for the 150kms, that meant the pace was extremely fast for the last 100km's making attacking difficult to achieve - Yesterday's race had nothing to do with the parcours it was the way the race was run - Though keep that cobbled climb in near the end and certain there would have been only 5 or 6 riders contesting the final.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

Yeah that climb was crucial but the opinion of many, me included, is that the race was still relatively boring since nothing happened before the cobbled climb. Especially the Saint Nicolas was even more boring than usually since everyone waited for the last ramp cobbled.

2016 was an outlier for the race - Appalling weather conditions with snow falling is hardly conducive to an exciting race - Love to crystal ball to see what would have happened if the cobbled climb was in this year's race.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

Yeah that climb was crucial but the opinion of many, me included, is that the race was still relatively boring since nothing happened before the cobbled climb. Especially the Saint Nicolas was even more boring than usually since everyone waited for the last ramp cobbled.

2016 was an outlier for the race - Appalling weather conditions with snow falling is hardly conducive to an exciting race - Love to crystal ball to see what would have happened if the cobbled climb was in this year's race.

Unless a big group gets away and cooperates, any group/solo move is ***.

All it does is prevent regrouping after SN, punish all action before it

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

That race was awful. That climb had nothing to do with the rest of the course at all, it was completely out of place. It took away any action on Saint Nicholas and Roche and Redoute (not helped by the headwind) and forced it all on a small climb 3km before the finish. That didn't help the excitement, in fact that reduced it. And sure there was a 4 man group at the front, but the main pack of riders finished with 17 riders st.

Don't forget 2016 was bitterly cold with snow on the route - People complain there is no action on Saint Nicholas, Redoubte etc - Because the peleton rode so slowly for the 150kms, that meant the pace was extremely fast for the last 100km's making attacking difficult to achieve - Yesterday's race had nothing to do with the parcours it was the way the race was run - Though keep that cobbled climb in near the end and certain there would have been only 5 or 6 riders contesting the final.

I don't want a race, though, decided in the last 3km. I don't care if 10 minutes are exciting rather than 5, because overall it is still a boring race. That climb allows attacks, but its proximity makes everyone wait for it. It exacerbates the problem we already have of Saint Nicholas.

 

[barmaher]

All this talk about changing the course, but is it realistic? What are the plans of the organisers?

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

That race was awful. That climb had nothing to do with the rest of the course at all, it was completely out of place. It took away any action on Saint Nicholas and Roche and Redoute (not helped by the headwind) and forced it all on a small climb 3km before the finish. That didn't help the excitement, in fact that reduced it. And sure there was a 4 man group at the front, but the main pack of riders finished with 17 riders st.

Don't forget 2016 was bitterly cold with snow on the route - People complain there is no action on Saint Nicholas, Redoubte etc - Because the peleton rode so slowly for the 150kms, that meant the pace was extremely fast for the last 100km's making attacking difficult to achieve - Yesterday's race had nothing to do with the parcours it was the way the race was run - Though keep that cobbled climb in near the end and certain there would have been only 5 or 6 riders contesting the final.

I don't want a race, though, decided in the last 3km. I don't care if 10 minutes are exciting rather than 5, because overall it is still a boring race. That climb allows attacks, but its proximity makes everyone wait for it. It exacerbates the problem we already have of Saint Nicholas.

Riders determine the race pattern - Nothing has changed - Think some are too precious about races and live in a fantasy world - In any sporting contest you have good games/races, average one's, dead set boring one's and some exceptional one's - We've been blessed to have some excellent races during the Classic season - Long may it continue.

 

[Red Rick]

Riders make the race.

To get the most out of it.

And when they can't win

They wait

And ride for 4th

 

[Mr.White]

Riders make the race, that's true. There are plenty terrain in this race where they could attack, that's also true. the problem is that race final suits down to the ground to 2 biggest favorites, who also have the strongest teams, and the 3rd biggest favorite also thinks that final suits him (although that's not the case imo), and he has an even stronger team than those two. And what we got is a locked race.
There were attacks, multiple, but not serious ones, involving biggest names. If you look carefully, one of these 3 teams closed every serious attempt of break going clear. S.Henao went on La Redoute to catch the break and when Valverde followed the break was doomed. On RaF Kreuziger went clear with decent group, then first Martin himself chased trying maybe to bridge and dragging to whole group with him, and then Moscon and Rojas brought that back at the foot of St.Nicholas. And at the very end when Formolo went, 4th strongest team (Orica) started to chase. So when we have 3 strongest teams blocking the race, and even 4th at the end, we couldn't get different race than this one.
The key is maybe to make the race less favorable for the strongest riders, so they need to move earlier. I think the flat finish 5-10km after St.Nicolas would spice up the race, with harder middle part. Valverde, for example would need to go earlier, to eliminate fast finishers like Matthews, or even GVA and Kwiatkowski. Latter two would need to anticipate Valverde and move earlier then he, something like Gilbert did in Amstel, and we would have a much open race. Something similar to Amstel this year.

 

[Flamin]

The route doesn't need to change (we don't need the same format in every race), team size does. As pointed out by White, 3 very strong teams wanted a sprint and they were strong enough to kill off every attack at will. Eliminate 1 guy of each team and the Wellens-Kreuziger move on/after Roche becomes super dangerous. We would probably have seen Valverde or Martin react themselves. Now they knew they could just sit back and wait till all comes back together.