2017 TdF Doping Discussion

[spiritualride]

Third fastest Tour ever apparently according to the Euosport commentators. Only faster tours were 2003 and 2005, peak Lance era.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

I do believe that most if not all of the relevant riders are charged, but average speeds do mean jack sh*t, majority of the pace in a GT is dictated by the pointless breaks in flat stages

Isn't average speed based on the GC leader distance/time?

Yes and +95% of the time in a GT the GC leader is riding only a fraction of their maximum ability, cruising along in the peloton. The amount of time the Tour spends on final cat 1/HC climbs and time trials is probably well under 5% of the race time. For every handful of minutes a doped rider can go faster on a MTF, that's dwarfed by whether the peloton feels like wasting an extra hour on every flat stage riding a slow tempo.

 

[The Hegelian]

Speaking from the point of view of cultural-armchair-historical knowledge - rather than scientific - it wasn't an alien year. Nothing appeared extraordinary. And frankly, that in itself is quite extraordinary.

I would say that the most eyebrow raising performance in the tour was Kwiatkowski. But he is an out and out champion of the highest pedigree. It's simply not suspicious - in the way that, for example, Rogers in 2012 and Pouls in 2016 really were.

Number 2 was Landa. But only because he rode the Giro. At the end of the day, watching a top Basque climber climb with the elite is not eyebrow raising.

What else? It was really ho-hum. It appeared as plausible. Not saying it is, but it appeared that way. The number of pages in this thread says it all.

 

[vedrafjord]

Veloclinic has a look at at MTF performance of podium finishers: http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/163303577538/tour-de-france-gc-performance-trends

and concludes that the increase in speeds we saw over the start of the Sky era has levelled off for now.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

Veloclinic has a look at at MTF performance of podium finishers: http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/163303577538/tour-de-france-gc-performance-trends

and concludes that the increase in speeds we saw over the start of the Sky era has levelled off for now.

Where does he say that? His conclusion seems to be:

The good news, and I’ll call it that as much as my popularity seems to hinge on playing does it dope, is that over the past 10 years there does not seem to be an emergence of some new doping rocket-fuel. I’m by no means naive enough to see this as evidence of a clean sport. But it does at least support the idea that the illicit march has stalled for now.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/barguil-cycling-is-cleaner-otherwise-i-wouldnt-have-won-on-the-izoard/

Here we go again!

You're a genuinely good poster. I would be interested to hear what you disagree with? Is it because The Clinic INSIST cycling is not clean and never will be? Have you even seen the climbing times this year?

Don't let their cynicism and hate cloud your judgment.

Poursuivant, He could very well be clean. I won't discuss that because I don't have evidence of not. But I don't like it when riders use themselves and their performance as evidence of cleanness. That is not objective at all. That doesn't even make sense. You have to let third parties be the judge of that.

I loved Barguil in this Tour. He was the biggest animator of the race. And I loved that he won the Lavenir Tour as well showing that he has been good from the beginning. Having said that there is no proof of anything yet.

 

[bigcog]

Sunday is not a MTF, but with so much climbing, Vayer's radar will be out, and we may see some crazy stuff. Too bad that the Chat from Yenne has no data/times from top-riders to compare. Some of our experts here will be precious for us to truly appreciate the feats accomplished.

I noticed Vader kept his yap shut. I suppose it doesn't matter when they are French ...

 

[Bronstein]

Sunday is not a MTF, but with so much climbing, Vayer's radar will be out, and we may see some crazy stuff. Too bad that the Chat from Yenne has no data/times from top-riders to compare. Some of our experts here will be precious for us to truly appreciate the feats accomplished.

I noticed Vader kept his yap shut. I suppose it doesn't matter when they are French ...

Vayer has singled out Bardet's 2016 Tour performances, Le Bettex in particular:

http://www.lemonde.fr/tour-de-france/article/2016/07/25/tour-de-france-bardet-ou-l-extension-du-domaine-du-possible_4974240_1616918.html

http://www.chronoswatts.com/news/108/

 

[Ricco']

Re:

Is 5.3 W/kg accurate? That doesn't seem possible. At all. That would put the GC contenders at more like 5...that seems crazy low, right? Especially since Barguil crushed the record.

Using Ferrari formula (with VAM) and Jens's climbing times posted on his blog, I came up with 5.8 W/kg for Barguil.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Is 5.3 W/kg accurate? That doesn't seem possible. At all. That would put the GC contenders at more like 5...that seems crazy low, right? Especially since Barguil crushed the record.

Using Ferrari formula (with VAM) and Jens's climbing times posted on his blog, I came up with 5.8 W/kg for Barguil.

That's very much inline with what Barguil himself says he did (5.9 W/Kg):

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/barguil-cycling-is-cleaner-otherwise-i-wouldnt-have-won-on-the-izoard/

 

[Benotti69]

It would be nice to think the sport was 'cleanER' and Barguil's performance and wins were a product of that, but what has made the sport 'cleanER' can he point to it? Testing is up, more money in testing, new tests, what? Something Warren that shows 'cleanER' cycling is the reality not just idle talk.

Because from my Mom's basement i don't see how the sport suddenly got 'cleanER'!!!!! and Just because Barguil says so, don't make it so!

 

[Robert5091]

It's a shame LRP crashed out as he and Froome going for a MTF win would, I think, have raised some eyebrows. Otherwise Froome's catch up after a wheel change was the only time he put in a sustained effort. The blow up on stage 12 was 300 m on a 20% finish which might explain why Sky were munching like mad in the last 10km of every stage efterwards.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

It would be nice to think the sport was 'cleanER' and Barguil's performance and wins were a product of that, but what has made the sport 'cleanER' can he point to it? Testing is up, more money in testing, new tests, what? Something Warren that shows 'cleanER' cycling is the reality not just idle talk.

Because from my Mom's basement i don't see how the sport suddenly got 'cleanER'!!!!! and Just because Barguil says so, don't make it so!

With no real baseline it's impossible to know.

This tour I have to say that the riding seemed more "human" to me than previous tours, but that doesn't necessarily equate to clean or cleaner. I'm a huge fan of Barguil and I'd like to believe he is clean. But I'm not an idiot and I'm not going to dismiss everything we know about doping in cycling just because the climbing falls within the realms of possibility.

 

[MightyWheelSucker]

Barguil is obviously clean. His sudden increase of performance comes from natural, steady growth of application of modern methods of science in training, nutrition etc. in Sunweb. Total performance of team proves it: Dumoulin, Mattweus, Barguil. I bet that Kelderman will be top 5 in Vuelta (unless he crashes). All cleans.

 

[terribleone]

Wasn't this Tour the second fastest in recent memory? Are we going to say it was because of the parcours? Call me a cynic...

I'm positive that the UCI were scanning for motors on the d'Izoard using a heat sensor. The TV2 documentary must have hit a nerve with the UCI... (Well worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=johF_tP1JEY Some of the expressions Cookson pulled when being shown the evidence were priceless.) I think since 2010ish motorised doping has been pretty prevalent for the top world tour teams, providing the budget stretches that far. The Kwiato wheel swap really stunk to me.

I dunno if Barguil caught sight of it and nipped off the front before it caught upto him... j/k! But to state that anyone is 'obviously clean' is maybe a tad naive? I remember reading that his ascent time was 2mins faster than any other ascent of the Col d'Izoard with some pretty filthy alumni mentioned. Granted, it's never been a MTF before but 2mins faster than a 2009 vintage Ricco?!? Get outta here.

 

[Benotti69]

Dan Martin has learned that he suffered two vertebral fractures en route to sixth overall in LeTour!!!!!

What Effing PEDs was he on??

edit: What kind of team doctors let a rider continue with two vertebral fractures? I know Martin is a competitive guy, but FFS, i would expect Doctors to think of his health. What would have happened to Martin if he suffered another serious fall, he could have done serious long termmobility damage to himself!!!

 

[terribleone]

Re:

My guess would be mammoth amounts of tramadol. You can't help but think that stuff must interfere with other products they're taking from a health stand point. Some packets were found at the Tour this year. (Again)

I'd suspect that with the seemingly 'dodgy' rest day Quick Step had, Kittel going bye bye, Lefevre didn't really have much choice but to pretty much demand that Martin finish the race and just hope that Jack Bauer would get in the way in case DM did fall again!

Dan Martin has learned that he suffered two vertebral fractures en route to sixth overall in LeTour!!!!!

What Effing PEDs was he on??

edit: What kind of team doctors let a rider continue with two vertebral fractures? I know Martin is a competitive guy, but FFS, i would expect Doctors to think of his health. What would have happened to Martin if he suffered another serious fall, he could have done serious long termmobility damage to himself!!!