Giro d'Italia 2021 Giro d'Italia, Stage 4: Piacenza - Sestola 186 km

[Logic-is-your-friend]

DQS paced a lot today and they knew even from Tirreno Almeida doesn't like rainy conditions. They went with "Almeida is the leader" to ease off Remco's pressure. The pace set by Bahrain was really high at the end and they dropped Almeida by a bit.

DQS didn't send any rider at the back to give him a hand and when Ciccone attacked, DQS went to impose a high steady pace which made sure Almeida would never have a chance. They thought the same as you "He is done". We saw a lot of bounces back in the Giro, last year had plenty. They could've tried to limit the losses but they chose not to.

If the roles would be reversed do you think DQS would've let Remco alone and say "He is done" or they would've drop someone to give him some help? Would've they maintain a high pace afterwards and make Remco a dom for Almeida?

Almeida didn't got the "GC treatment" from DQS even though he might have been done anyway as you say. The gap is probably also higher because the guy kinda gave up. But I think for everything he has done at DQS he deserved at least a bit of support. If he wouldn't have left I think they would but now, they obviously would rather want him as a domestique for Remco until the end.

The attacks from GC weren't substantial today, the only guys that lost contact were the ones having a bad day( Almeida, Bennett). Attacks left and right? Doubtful, most of them were miserable and Bahrain still had a good team there. The only certain attack was Landa. It was more like a test to see is actually in good form and can't be let go. Remco wouldn't have lost a lot of time anyway imo, he still had good enough legs that he was the one following the others.

I was talking about the stage, not necessarilly the Giro. Or at least not at that moment. You are right that he did not get the GC treatment, but they did not actively ride against him like you insinuated. They rode for Evenepoel.

Yet if i remember well Evenepoel only got some shortlived support. When the attacks came, he too was alone.

EDIT: watched the replay, at the moment Almeida gets dropped, there is no DQT at the front. Evenepoel is isolated in the center of the bunch, and there is one other DQT dangling at the back. My guess would be Masnada, i think it's #97. So at this moment Evenepoel has no support either and Masnada is hanging on for dear life. I guess they could have told him to help Almeida, but it's also possible they decided to at least keep Masnada in the GC, if they knew Almeida was done anyway for the day and sacrificing Masnada wouldn't make a difference. Then moments later, Serry gets caught by the Evenepoel group, and he starts riding tempo for Evenepoel for a few hundreds of meters. That doesn't last long, and Ineos takes over before Landa attacks. As soon as that happens, Evenepoel is completely isolated.

Almeida crosses the line with Knox and Serry. So the team definitely didn't ride against him or hung him out to dry. Support could have been better, but they might have decided to keep Masnada in GC instead and hope Knox could help Almeida.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes its rare. But another example was Cadel in 2011 TdF - no crashes. He definitely peaked in the 3rd week even though he was strong since the beginning. Evans certainly didn't weaken in the 3rd week.

Evans was really good right from the start, and it's not like he got dropped in the Pyrenees. Contador tried to peak for the third week in the end, but he'd also crashed hard in week 1

I think its more a case of not weakening in the 3rd week. When most rivals naturally weaken with the accumulated fatigue, if you stay strong it seems like you peaked. Its all relative.

Sometimes riders do literally get better in absolute terms, and the Giro was an example of that, but I think it's usually mostly down to the hardest stages being near the very end of a race and riders that overperform slightly bonking in the end.

 

[red_flanders]

For me the most memorable example of someone coming onto form in the third week was Pantani in the 2000 Tour. He'd been out of racing forever, got shelled on Hautacam, then came good in the Alps, winning stages and wreaking absolute havoc.

I think it's entirely reasonable to wonder if a talent like Evenepoel would come onto better form in week 3. He's similarly not tuned up from racing in almost a year, and feels somewhat ominous if he came onto form. On the other hand he's super young and inexperienced, and might just be getting worn out from going too hard. But the idea that coming onto form late in a GT doesn't happen...nah.

 

[BlueRoads]

For me the most memorable example of someone coming onto form in the third week was Pantani in the 2000 Tour. He'd been out of racing forever, got shelled on Hautacam, then came good in the Alps, winning stages and wreaking absolute havoc.

I think it's entirely reasonable to wonder if a talent like Evenepoel would come onto better form in week 3. He's similarly not tuned up from racing in almost a year, and feels somewhat ominous if he came onto form. On the other hand he's super young and inexperienced, and might just be getting worn out from going too hard. But the idea that coming onto form late in a GT doesn't happen...nah.

I love Pantani. He's one of my cycling childhood-heros. He came across cool, kind and spectacular. However, do you really want Evenepoel to go the Pantani-way...?

 

[red_flanders]

I love Pantani. He's one of my cycling childhood-heros. He came across cool, kind and spectacular. However, do you really want Evenepoel to go the Pantani-way...?

Pantani was a tragedy of the sport, no one wants that, and I'm sure you see that wasn't my point. Just an obvious example of a rider coming good in a 3 week GT.

 

[BlueRoads]

Pantani was a tragedy of the sport, no one wants that, and I'm sure you see that wasn't my point. Just an obvious example of a rider coming good in a 3 week GT.

Yeah, I see that, but my point was that this way of coming good is something I'd rather discuss in the clinic.

 

[johnymax]

Sometimes riders do literally get better in absolute terms, and the Giro was an example of that, but I think it's usually mostly down to the hardest stages being near the very end of a race and riders that overperform slightly bonking in the end.

Riders that get better in absolute terms over the duration of a GT are often riders who misjudge their preparation and start the GT undercooked and undertrained. Or of course riders who want to use GT as training for other objectives later in the season. Another recent example is Carapaz in last year's Tour. He started the race undercooked because lack of training and racing as a result of a sudden change in his program. In the third week he was flying and every day in a breakaway (he wasn't riding for GC though). Still he didn't reach his peak, which came later in the Vuelta.

 

[roundabout]

Peaking in 3rd week is more like a myth to keep people's hope up. It's more like "I hope to be able to have a good result while the others just falter". TGH and Hindley weren't peaking in 3rd week last year, the others weren't strong enough to keep up with Dennis.

Hindley set his personal 30 minutes power record on Piancavallo which while not last week in strictest terms is close enough.

The biggest peaker in 3rd week that I personally remember was probably Perez in the 04 Vuelta. He recovered something like 4 minutes on Heras in the last 8 stages. One that I didn't quite catch, but must have been super crazy was Ugrumov in the 94 Tour when he gained over 8 minutes on Indurain in 3 stages.

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah, I see that, but my point was that this way of coming good is something I'd rather discuss in the clinic.

I would be flabbergasted if his preparation for the Tour, whatever it might have been, hadn't started long before the race. Just don't see that as a factor, then or now.

 

[Froome]

Hindley set his personal 30 minutes power record on Piancavallo which while not last week in strictest terms is close enough.

The biggest peaker in 3rd week that I personally remember was probably Perez in the 04 Vuelta. He recovered something like 4 minutes on Heras in the last 8 stages. One that I didn't quite catch, but must have been super crazy was Ugrumov in the 94 Tour when he gained over 8 minutes on Indurain in 3 stages.

Hindley made the best performance of 2020 in the mountains. 6.4 w/kg during 30 minutes. But i'm not seeing that shape this year.

 

[roundabout]

The whole turn to form, dominating Courchevel, going on a ridiculous attack after the rest day and then having nothing left after being caught while Herve and Escartin from the same break finished very high on the stage and then withdrawing was suspicious to me then and is suspicious to me now,

 

[red_flanders]

The whole turn to form, dominating Courchevel, going on a ridiculous attack after the rest day and then having nothing left after being caught while Herve and Escartin from the same break finished very high on the stage and then withdrawing was suspicious to me then and is suspicious to me now,

Happy to discuss it in the clinic. I don't see the logic.

 

[roundabout]

Happy to discuss it in the clinic. I don't see the logic.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving my view on how I saw that particular part of that particular Tour

 

[Sciatic]

For me the most memorable example of someone coming onto form in the third week was Pantani in the 2000 Tour. He'd been out of racing forever, got shelled on Hautacam, then came good in the Alps, winning stages and wreaking absolute havoc.

I think it's entirely reasonable to wonder if a talent like Evenepoel would come onto better form in week 3. He's similarly not tuned up from racing in almost a year, and feels somewhat ominous if he came onto form. On the other hand he's super young and inexperienced, and might just be getting worn out from going too hard. But the idea that coming onto form late in a GT doesn't happen...nah.

I think Lemond at the 1989 Giro is another example. Although he was not really “peaking” in the sense we’re talking about, but rather feel Bally coming into form from being vastly out of shape!

 

[senna6541]

I think Lemond at the 1989 Giro is another example. Although he was not really “peaking” in the sense we’re talking about, but rather feel Bally coming into form from being vastly out of shape!

Yep, and there are plenty of stories about Lemond's freakish talent and his ability to roll his fat arse off the couch and be killing guys after a few weeks...

 

[The Hegelian]

There's The Dawg too, to consider, in the 2018 Giro. He came in seriously undercooked and looked basically gone after about 1.5 weeks. And then...........you know what happened.

 

[Big Doopie]

It has been mentioned here by others, but it seems like we are going back a bit...

Riders do not "get better".

They get less tired than other riders (assuming no clinic matters).

They recover better.

At the end of the 1990 TDF Lemond famously said that he now knew that the Tour is won in the third week. Because he knew that he naturally recovered better than any others at the time (and 1990 is a prime example). How ironic that the very next year that natural hierarchy was corrupted by factors that could make someone who normally couldn't recover over a three-week race, actually now do so...

So remco would have to find out that he recovers better than others. i would not have been surprised to find that to be true last year had he ridden the giro. this year, i have no idea as their are many variables based on his injury, delayed recovery and being away from racing. i could see him collapsing or gradually getting stronger in comparison to others. fact is he is not tour de pologne remco. question is, will he become that remco before he ships a lot of time?

 

[Netserk]

Some riders clearly do get better in absolute terms over a GT. Last year's Giro is a prime example of that.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I think its more a case of not weakening in the 3rd week. When most rivals naturally weaken with the accumulated fatigue, if you stay strong it seems like you peaked. Its all relative.

Could be, but we'd need to look more into climbing times. For example the fastest time up the alp was stage 13, a day after a long ITT and having already been through the Pyrenees. Yet in 2003 they went through the Alps first, yet apart from Mayo the times weren't quick.

Yes, Pogacar’s Perysourde exploits were early in the race, but the Vino record that he beat came late in that 2003 edition.

 

[Red Rick]

Some riders clearly do get better in absolute terms over a GT. Last year's Giro is a prime example of that.

TGH I think literally had a higher VAM and W/kg on the Stelvio than Etna.

 

[Carols]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but kudos for using the word suppless. Makes me think of my man Carlton Kirby.
Carry on.

Thanks! Suppless was used way before Kirby ever showed up .