Vuelta a España 2022 Vuelta a España stage 6(Bilbao > Ascensión al Pico Jano. San Miguel de Aguayo),181,2 km - Mountain

[Ilmaestro99]

If Remco wins this Vuelta, how will Lafevere still be able to afford him?

Pizza hut sponsor money

 

[jflemaire]

If Remco wins this Vuelta, how will Lafevere still be able to afford him?

If Remco wins I would be surprised if a new sponsor doesn't show up or if the current ones do not up their game, seing the crazy hype this win would generate in Belgium.

 

[red_flanders]

If Remco wins this Vuelta, how will Lafevere still be able to afford him?

Might be a great outcome if he gets picked up by INEOS (or the like), and I never in a million years thought I'd hear myself say that. But they've been so much less annoying since the comical days a few years ago with You Know Who.

If and when he does end up winning or on the podium of a GT, he deserves a team which can give him the best possible support. This team is Quick Step's full commitment, and they look at this point like a severe weakness. No climbers on form, and even if they were, thin. Very thin.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Then you also missed the point. Which was not to prove that he definitely will win this or any GT, but to ridicule people who have been claiming he will/could never because he would get dropped as soon as the road went up or can not compete against elite climbers.

That theory was already proven wrong two years ago, the issue with him competing over a GT was that we simply don't know what he can do deep into the race because he's never completed one. And we've seen enough races where somebody who looked in total control of a race loses it by running out of steam late in the race, some hanging on to win like Savoldelli in the 2005 Giro or Roglič in the 2020 Vuelta, but many falling by the wayside late on, like Nozal in the 2003 Vuelta, Valverde in the 2006 Vuelta, Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta, Kruijswijk in the 2016 Giro, Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro, such that no matter how much of a phenom a rider is, if they're unproven over three weeks, we cannot be certain that they can back it up over three weeks until they actually do it.

Hence why this can only be crowned "the day he proved the GT win is a question of when, not if", as Devil's Elbow called it, retrospectively.

 

[Rollthedice]

If Remco wins this Vuelta, how will Lafevere still be able to afford him?

I think he has the longest term contract Lefevere has ever signed and I'm sure it is costing the organization a lot of money. But he will have the opportunity to win more than just this Vuelta, which of course is far from being won.

 

[StryderHells]

Alpecin went into the Giro and the TDF with no climbers - It was a no brainer for him to ride the Giro - Remember that Alpecin is not a GC team and with their paucity of climbers are mostly invisible in mountain stages.

They won 3 Giro stages and 2 Tour stages, I don’t think not taking climber hurt them at either race.

 

[Andy262]

Great ride from Vine and also Remco. Still not convinced he's the man for a really tough multiple mountain stage but that was good today.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

True, and so did Jay Vine who was just as strong as Remco today!

Vine was amazing actually, but you can't compared it since he was taking it easy this week and nobody jumped on his wheel since he doesn't ride for GC.

 

[Jungle Cycle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1562839357119410183

View: https://twitter.com/procycletrumps/status/1562839357119410183

 

[Escarabajo]

If Remco wins this Vuelta, how will Lafevere still be able to afford him?

If Remco wins this I heard that the governement of Belgium will sponsor his career!
In fact I read somewhere that housewives, ex-cyclists, fans, politicians (all want to be president), even media will create a fund to sponsor his career. Just saying!!!

 

[Escarabajo]

Landa had an injury and said pre race no GC however Carapaz's performance is really disappointing if he has had no issues.

Carapaz leaving the team was always an issue on his performance. Why? don't ask me, but it usually is for an exiting rider.

 

[staubsauger]

Matxin basically said last week already that Ayuso would go for GC as long as he can. It wouldn't make sense to line up a champion like him just to gain experience and abandon later on.

Matxin: «Vi spiego perché Ayuso farà la Vuelta». Decisione ribaltata nelle ultime settimane

Nella squadra della UAE Emirates per la Vuelta c'è stata la sorpresa di Ayuso. Matxin, che ha dato l'okay alla sua presenza, spiega i motivi

bici.pro

Makes sense actually.

Go for gc. Look where he stands after Sierra Nevada to measure his ability.

If he falters afterwards at Penas Blancs or Navacerrada it's mainly because of the 3rd week, than due to weakness rather.

 

[Extinction]

That theory was already proven wrong two years ago, the issue with him competing over a GT was that we simply don't know what he can do deep into the race because he's never completed one. And we've seen enough races where somebody who looked in total control of a race loses it by running out of steam late in the race, some hanging on to win like Savoldelli in the 2005 Giro or Roglič in the 2020 Vuelta, but many falling by the wayside late on, like Nozal in the 2003 Vuelta, Valverde in the 2006 Vuelta, Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta, Kruijswijk in the 2016 Giro, Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro, such that no matter how much of a phenom a rider is, if they're unproven over three weeks, we cannot be certain that they can back it up over three weeks until they actually do it.

Hence why this can only be crowned "the day he proved the GT win is a question of when, not if", as Devil's Elbow called it, retrospectively.

Yea, but can we really compare Evenepoel with a Kruijswick, a Nozal, a Yates for that matter, etc.? This issue is not "can" he win, but "will" he win, based on his pedigree and precoscious results thus far, a distinction that subtlely encapsulates the conundrum. If it were not for Pogacar and now Vingegaard there would be little doubt that he "will" win a GC some day, even if this pans out to not be true.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Sorry, I'm with Fantastico on this. It's still week 1. We know Remco can be this strong in one-week races, as he has done it multiple times. We know he has the strength to drop the best. We don't know whether he can do that in week 3 yet,

Solid reasoning. I think today is mostly a "I told you so" to the people that have talked specifically about his climbing skills (and not the complete GT GC skill set). Those who ridiculed the hype after the Tour of Norway mountain stage for example. Those who said T-A and Tour de Swiss proved he can't climb at WT level.
There are a lot of people that have raised sensible questions regarding Remcos ability to win a GT. Those questions are still not answered. Today was an answer to the stupid "he can't climb"-critics.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Great Vine Jay and Remco Evenepoel. Their legendary climb at Tour of Norway was no fluke! Mas able to hold Remco's hot wheel while Ayuso, as I predicted, is having his Pogacar 2019 Vuelta (Pogi boy will be a superdom at the next TdF). Primoz and other guys lost so much time today, unfortunately it seems Primoz isn't in great shape (yet?). Remco in the best position from the GC guys and now the question is if he can keep form for 3 weeks (Mas is good but he'll be annihilated on that TT and Primoz needs to up his game in upcoming stages while Ayuso is dangerous but unpredictable).

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Due to work I had to watch a replay (of the last 20km anyway) - wow, for a sec there I thought I was watching the Giro. The rain, the fog...

Congrats to Jay Vine - from what I could see anyway he had won this stage.

 

[shalgo]

Best Zwift ad of all time

Is this now officially La Vuelta Con Zwift?

 

[tobydawq]

Not too shabby for a fake climb. I guess all it took was a French clown.

 

[perico]

I wouldn't put much emphasis on this stage. Conditions were horrible, but Remco was impressive. Maybe he is undeed Belgian Spilak?
What I find mind-blowing is that Ayuso was dropping of a 50 man peloton on a cat.3, while Today he is "best of the rest".
As for Mas, he probably didn't have it to contribute with Remco, hence just followed. However, he tends to perform weaker in the second half recently, so I won't be surprised if the GC after Siera Nevada is completely different .

Mas usually gets stronger and his recovery is what makes him a perrenial GC contender. He's not going to outride anyone, but is very difficult to drop the longer a race goes on.

 

[Escarabajo]

The fight for the leadership of INEOS is on. Interesting indeed!

 

[YavorD]

Mas usually gets stronger and his recovery is what makes him a perrenial GC contender. He's not going to outride anyone, but is very difficult to drop the longer a race goes on.

I've had this conversation before and I stand by my point. Mas did that in his first 2 competitive GT's. Ever since Tour 2020 he's losing more time in the second half of the race than on the first.
Yes, in some of them he's had crashes etc, but that's the 5th GT now when people say "beware for Mas, he'll only get better in the last week" and he isn't.

He may, of course, prove me wrong and win the whole thing, but recent records show he's not exactly thriving in the third week and people excepting him to be up there in the last stages because he's " being good early" are proven wrong lately

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I've had this conversation before and I stand by my point. Mas did that in his first 2 competitive GT's. Ever since Tour 2020 he's losing more time in the second half of the race than on the first.
Yes, in some of them he's had crashes etc, but that's the 5th GT now when people say "beware for Mas, he'll only get better in the last week" and he isn't.

He may, of course, prove me wrong and win the whole thing, but recent records show he's not exactly thriving in the third week and people excepting him to be up there in the last stages because he's " being good early" are proven wrong lately

Time and GC position don't always correspond though, as sometimes it's just that he gets worse slightly slower than others.
2020 Tour after stage 15: Mas 8th +3'15, after stage 21: Mas 5th +6'07" - doubles his timeloss but gains three positions on GC.

2020 Vuelta after stage 12: Mas 5th +1'50, after stage 18: Mas 5th +3'36 - lost a similar amount of time in the last week to the first two combined, but held his GC position steady.

2021 Tour after stage 15: Mas 8th +7'11, after stage 21: Mas 6th +11'43 - gains 2 GC positions and loses time in relatively consistent amounts throughout.

2021 Vuelta after stage 15: Mas 4th +2'11 (realistically though, 2nd +35" from Rogla as Eiking and Martin were given time from the break to give Jumbo a respite from the jersey), after stage 21: Mas 2nd +4'42" - lost a lot more time but stayed in same position GC-wise.

In fact, this seems consistent throughout his career. The 2022 Tour would have been the first time he had ever - including the 2017 Vuelta as a neo-pro (80th to 71st) and the 2019 Tour where Alaphilippe's fairytale saw him repurposed as a domestique (26th to 22nd) - finished in a lower position than he went into the final rest day at - and that was because of dropping from 10th to 11th on the Hautacam stage; given that he promptly tested positive for Covid that evening and DNSed the following day, it is possible that without that illness he may have been able to defend that 10th spot (but that is conjecture of course).

 

[staubsauger]

That theory was already proven wrong two years ago, the issue with him competing over a GT was that we simply don't know what he can do deep into the race because he's never completed one. And we've seen enough races where somebody who looked in total control of a race loses it by running out of steam late in the race, some hanging on to win like Savoldelli in the 2005 Giro or Roglič in the 2020 Vuelta, but many falling by the wayside late on, like Nozal in the 2003 Vuelta, Valverde in the 2006 Vuelta, Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta, Kruijswijk in the 2016 Giro, Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro, such that no matter how much of a phenom a rider is, if they're unproven over three weeks, we cannot be certain that they can back it up over three weeks until they actually do it.

Hence why this can only be crowned "the day he proved the GT win is a question of when, not if", as Devil's Elbow called it, retrospectively.

The 2006 Vuelta a Espana actually is a good example. Didn't Di Luca and Brajkovic beat all other favorites at the first MTF, while Vinokourov even lost significant time on Kasheshkin?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I've had this conversation before and I stand by my point. Mas did that in his first 2 competitive GT's. Ever since Tour 2020 he's losing more time in the second half of the race than on the first.
Yes, in some of them he's had crashes etc, but that's the 5th GT now when people say "beware for Mas, he'll only get better in the last week" and he isn't.

When it comes to the Tour last year it's a question wheter you count stage 11 as first half or second half. If you count it to the first half then he clearly was better in second part. If you count stage 11 to second half he lost a tiny bit more in second part.

However, looking at time behind at half way point and time behind at end of GT is in my eyes a too big simplification, because normally there is not a lot of climbing in the first week - especially in the Tour.

I think the reason why the 2021 Tour still fueled the "3rd week Mas" legend is that the last mountain stage was probably his best - and definitively the most notable - performance of that Tour.

The Vuelta of 2021 also fueled the "3rd week Mas" a bit as he was increasing the gap to the riders behind him in GC during the last week. Roglic was brilliant that last week, but in relation to everyone else Mas also was really good that last week.

So basically in 3 out of the 5 GTs he's been competitive (Giro 18, Tour 20, Vuelta 21 he's been really good or very good in the last week) and in 2 (Tour 18, Vuelta 20) he's atleast not gotten worse in relation to his competitors.
So the reason to fear and respect "3rd week Mas" is valid.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The 2006 Vuelta a Espana actually is a good example. Didn't Di Luca and Brajkovic beat all other favorites at the first MTF, while Vinokourov even lost significant time on Kasheshkin?

Good recollection, I was confusing the results of that one with the El Morredero one two days later.

2006 Vuelta a España stage 5: Plasencia - Estación de Esquí La Covatilla

The top 10 of the eventual GC on that stage:
Vino 21st +2'13
Valverde 6th +22"
Kashechkin 3rd +7"
Sastre 5th +22"
Gómez Marchante 4th +15"
Danielson 11th +42"
Samu 8th +39"
Karpets 24th +2'32
Triki 9th +39"
Luís Pérez 27th +3'03

Di Luca would be OK but inconsistent for most of the rest of that Vuelta, before losing 12 minutes to Granada and withdrawing to prepare for the Worlds. Brajko would be among the very best on El Morredero too, but then would get progressively weaker with each mountain stage and wind up finishing 30th on GC after dropping buckets of time on La Pandera.