Giro d'Italia 2023 Giro d'Italia, Stage 13: Borgofranco d’Ivrea – Crans Montana, 199 km (Friday, May 19th)

[DNP-Old]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659509262890987523

View: https://twitter.com/Flopigeon/status/1659509262890987523


I count at least four droplets. Good thing they scrapped this climb from the route.

 

[Red Rick]

The serious take is that given the state of labour organisation in cycling it's inevitable that rider demands will often somewhat spontaneous in response to race design or lack of race organiser response to circumstances. In this case it's bad weather combined with illness and a lot of dropouts. People who are complaining about the number of dropouts etc compromising the race and want everything to go ahead as planned are delusional.

Nobody is complaining about dropouts as a problem that needs to be fixed. It's just a disappointing result of the race happening as it is.

Any rider that finished the shortened stages but wouldn't finish the full stage if it was raced as designed wouldn't add much to the race anyway

 

[Brullnux]

The 2013 Giro had snow left right and centre even on some passes that are opened in winter, completely incomparable to either the 2010 or the current Giro.

2023 has had the worst weather for the past century. Let's not make inane and cliched complaints about the frailties and sensitivities of the modern man.

This has been a spectacularly wet and cold May, and that has obviously affected the riders' decision more so than the actual stage today. 2010 doesn't come close to comparing to the first two weeks this year in terms of the weather.

 

[Rackham]

Everyone remembers 2014 it’s bad for the sport

The stage is arguably harder now, so there absolutely will be spectacle. It's the sudden start uphill which will cause carnage. There's going to be sport & people will remember that.

Enjoying the posts from people saying “if this happened in XXXX we wouldn’t have seen a crazy doper do some crazy doper stuff”

And putting up Moscon up as a paragon of virtue? Ha ha

I was going to post something along these lines but I couldn't be bothered whilst emotions here are running high.

I mean 'back in the good old days', we're referring to eras when riders had needles stuck up their backsides for breakfast, lunch & dinner. They weren't good role models or better men.

 

[titan31]

Typical sports fan response this. The level of contempt most sports fans have for athletes is truly nauseating. If you're in favour of labour protections, you can't pick and choose when it comes to the reasonableness of demands. Be honest about what you want to see riders do to themselves or stay quiet.

Riders rightly don't trust race organisers, so I say go for it. Anyone who's having a tantrum because they don't get exactly what they want isn't worth the time of day.

We pay them to entertain us. If they don't entertain, this sports becomes an afterthought. *** like today just hurts the sport in general.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

I have the utmost respect for labour protections for people who work in extreme conditions and earn less than a respectable wage for the work they do.

This guys are 'living the dream', they earn well, some of them millions a year and that's only because of the fans. If there weren't any fans to watch them, the Tour or the Giro would matter 0 and they would earn nothing due to being a factor on those races.

What this riders give to the fans with this kind of decisions is contempt.

Of course if there are threats to riders lives, the stages should be amended or canceled, but any of the evidence regarding today's stage supports that idea? Rain is not a threat for anyone, or the dozens of recreational riders I see riding on rainy sundays around my area are all kamikaze crazies. And they are even more ridicule to cancel a pass, keeping the most dangerous one. If this decision was in name of safety, that wouldn't be the alteration required.

This is the typical response to athletes making any sort of demands, "I'd do it for free" or some such rubbish. The reality is that it's much easier to justify unreasonable conditions or risk, and potential for life altering injury when public anger can be directed at spoiled, overpaid or whatever athletes. Following your logic anyone who makes money in any sort of entertainment industry should just shut up and take it.

 

[Netserk]

Neither of us could know what's been said, why and what options were rejected, so I'll just say it clearly could be and we can get on to the circular discussion part.

If there doesn't even need to be any (sound) arguments for why cancelling the first 120 km avoids a clear and present danger, but only a gesturing at the possibility of the existence of such arguments, it is indeed difficult to engage with.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

2023 has had the worst weather for the past century. Let's not make inane and cliched complaints about the frailties and sensitivities of the modern man.

This has been a spectacularly wet and cold May, and that has obviously affected the riders' decision more so than the actual stage today. 2010 doesn't come close to comparing to the first two weeks this year in terms of the weather.

That's besides the point. The point is that snow poses an entirely different magnitude of risk compared to rain, provided the rain doesn't cause flooding and/or landslides (which it hasn't on the route).

 

[titan31]

Because it takes on average 3 hours to complete a game even though the ball is in play for just 11 minutes?

I'd assume they were talking about football, not American football.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

But "labour protections" doesn't really apply for sports, since they are competing directly against each other, and they are not hired by the race organizers.

In what universe? Bizarre stuff.

 

[Red Rick]

Sure, if you think that'll work. I personally think it's a great way to kill participation in the Giro from top racers and ultimately kill it as a race.

I think you way overestimate how much Giro participation of GC riders is driven by the Giro route and circumstances. It's almost completely determined by how the Tour de France landscape looks, unless they decide to make routes so easy the Giro-Tour combo starts looking like a very doable combo but nobody is gonna take that chance easily anyway.

 

[King Boonen]

If there doesn't even need to be any (sound) arguments for why cancelling the first 120 km avoids a clear and present danger, but only a gesturing at the possibility of the existence of such arguments, it is indeed difficult to engage with.

This supposes that the current state, which is that those KM’s have been cancelled, wasn’t for sound reasons.

 

[Ricco']

This is the typical response to athletes making any sort of demands, "I'd do it for free" or some such rubbish. The reality is that it's much easier to justify unreasonable conditions or risk, and potential for life altering injury when public anger can be directed at spoiled, overpaid or whatever athletes. Following your logic anyone who makes money in any sort of entertainment industry should just shut up and take it.

So, where was today's life altering injury risk?

Maybe the biggest risk today for that is a serious crash in Croix de Coeur descent. Guess what makes that even more probable? A fresh peloton arriving there closer together. Guess what contributed to that? Today's collective decision.

 

[Red Rick]

That's besides the point. The point is that snow poses an entirely different magnitude of risk compared to rain, provided the rain doesn't cause flooding and/or landslides (which it hasn't on the route).

Gavia was canceled in 2019 because of snow, but the Mortirolo descent was still colder and narrower and wetter than San Bernardo or Croix de Coeur today

 

[SafeBet]

I'd assume they were talking about football, not American football.

Don't think it makes much of a difference.

 

[Brullnux]

That's besides the point. The point is that snow poses an entirely different magnitude of risk compared to rain, provided the rain doesn't cause flooding and/or landslides (which it hasn't on the route).

Sure - but how is 2010 even in the conversation to begin with? Because of some snow up the Gavia? The rain on the Montalcino stage?

The fact the weather has been torrential is not besides the point, anyway - the stage has been shortened directly as a result of illness from the first two weeks. If you do not take that into account, then you are misunderstanding the entire reason behind the decision to shorten it. Rain, of course, poses a different threat - but the crashes on very wet descents, the weakened immune systems etc are obviously on the riders' minds. If the race had 2010 weather up to this point, then all that would have happened is that the riders would have taken the tunnel at CSB (which was always unlikely to be taken fully, as it's basically always covered in snow).

Again, I want to re-iterate that I don't think the stage should have been shortened. But random complaints about how they're a bunch of ninnies et al are both wrong and lazy. Treat what's happened on its own terms, not in some imaginary comparison about how in your day men were men and shorts were shorts.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Its kind of ironic that in the UK we've had lovely weather for the past few weeks lol

 

[Netserk]

This supposes that the current state, which is that those KM’s have been cancelled, wasn’t for sound reasons.

No, it does not. Only that there were no sound safety reasons.

Are there any? Can you point to any? Or can you only gesture at the possibility that such reasons exist?

 

[Pirazziattacks]

We pay them to entertain us. If they don't entertain, this sports becomes an afterthought. *** like today just hurts the sport in general.

Do you hold yourself personally responsible for the state of whatever industry you work in?

 

[ashhutch1997]

It's ashame they didn't come up with an alternative stage, there are so many possibilities in the Rhone Valley, I'm sure some of the route creators on this forum could knock up an epic stage

 

[Red Rick]

Sure - but how is 2010 even in the conversation to begin with? Because of some snow up the Gavia? The rain on the Montalcino stage?

The fact the weather has been torrential is not besides the point, anyway - the stage has been shortened directly as a result of illness from the first two weeks. If you do not take that into account, then you are misunderstanding the entire reason behind the decision to shorten it. Rain, of course, poses a different threat - but the crashes on very wet descents, the weakened immune systems etc are obviously on the riders' minds. If the race had 2010 weather up to this point, then all that would have happened is that the riders would have taken the tunnel at CSB (which was always unlikely to be taken fully, as it's basically always covered in snow).

Well they shortened a flat stage in 2020 when there were no such issues. Nor were there in 2021 when it notably wasn't snowing on Fedaia or Pordoi.

 

[Netserk]

Do you hold yourself personally responsible for the state of whatever industry you work in?

I hold myself personally responsible for my actions and what consequences I could reasonably expect them to have. Always.

 

[SafeBet]

It's ashame they didn't come up with an alternative stage, there are so many possibilities in the Rhone Valley, I'm sure some of the route creators on this forum could knock up an epic stage

Again, there is no route alternative that would make the riders happy today.
You would have to call the Sun (not the newspaper) and ask him to show up.

 

[rokovski]

This modified stage would be interesting with Remco still racing.

 

[King Boonen]

No, it does not. Only that there were no sound safety reasons.

Are there any? Can you point to any? Or can you only gesture at the possibility that such reasons exist?

I thought safety was implied based on the conversation, but yes, it does mean that. But we can’t know that either way.

I don’t think there are, I’ve said as much in other posts, my point it neither of us were in those conversations and neither of us are involved in WT bike racing, so any discussion just comes from a personal assessment that’s pretty meaningless. What you suggested is clearly ambiguous, even if not in this one specific case, so any discussion around something no like this would be from our own pont of view, and from past conversations I think that’s unlikely to align.