• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Giro d'Italia 2023 Giro d'Italia: Stage-by-Stage Analysis

Page 15 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
It was always about week three in this Giro edition. And it still is. The fact that Rogla is 2 seconds and not 2 minutes behind is not his fault. The route is solid. What happened is Covid, weather like we get each hundred years and crashes. Italy is under water and here in Slovenia a lot of people lost their homes due to landslides. This is not something that usually happens. Regarding the weather conditions. It's rare and it happened this year. But said all that we still have 3 to 5 GC riders capable of winning this race. So get over the fact Remco is out and won't win this year. And just rather enjoy the racing to come. GT racing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wheresmybrakes
More concretely, I'd like a Vesuvius week 1 MTF. Finestre is always a sure winner (but I'd like Sestriere twice afterwards, descending the Sauze di Cesana side). We haven't seen the classic Mortirolo-Aprica combo since 2015, even if 2019 was equivalent. And please, don't have the ITTs after GC stages.
Kinda funny that Finestre and Mortirolo can be seen as toning it down but they're well known at least. The 2021 and 2022 Giros had absolutely nothing crazy in them though, and I don't remember what got canceled in the 2022 Giro.Now they cited the protest as being about the Croix de Coeur descent or the overall race being too hard which is almost entirely about weather which you cannot control.

I agree it is time to tone down on gimmicks, but the most basic thing to me is backloading, not on the overall route, but on MTFs specifically. In this 3rd week, I would only keep Tre Cime as a MTF and maybe Zoldo Alto because the overall stage is just easier and I would really not want Bondone to be the MTF or Monte Lussari. Frontloading the hardest MTF has been a very, very consistent way of making good racing happen, as well as perhaps bringing the hardest part of the race to the end of the 2nd week rather than the end of the 3rd week.

I also think there have been some super hard stages in the years before that sort of get slept on because nobody was particularly complaining about stage designs being too hard and any cancellations have always been about weather only. Val Martello 2014 was 3 gigantic climbs. Corvara and St Anna di Vinadio were huge stages in 2016. Bormio 2017 was objectively a huge stage as well, although why u no Gavia. In 2019 Gavia gets canceled because of weather alone, and Mortirolo was still worse circumstances than the guys right now refuse to race in. I really think there's now an element of riders knowing they can get away with taking the piss and doing it repeatedly. And it all started with a flat stage because the boys didn't want to get wet. It's also only the Giro where they consistently protest. Not in the Tour where they got 40 degrees or whatever last year but noooo it was never too hot to race even when heat can be much more dangerous than cold
 
Kinda funny that Finestre and Mortirolo can be seen as toning it down but they're well known at least. The 2021 and 2022 Giros had absolutely nothing crazy in them though, and I don't remember what got canceled in the 2022 Giro.Now they cited the protest as being about the Croix de Coeur descent or the overall race being too hard which is almost entirely about weather which you cannot control.
My memory of the race, apparently. Genova doesn't really count here.
 
One more thing on race design, riders don't really get more aggressive when tired even when everyone else is tired, so I could really do with stripping down on some mountain stages if they are tiring without having a good platform to attack. Gran Sasso is a pointless climb this way. Cognes 2022 was another example. It's a climb that negates any action, and might only work for desperation attacks very late in the Giro. Likewise, I think the Bondone stage could be better with less climbing. but a different design, depending on who paid for the stage.
 
Going back to the whole Giro should start in late may and go into mid June discussion, I was looking at some of the Giro's of the 1990's. The 1994 Giro which was a classic, started on the 22nd of May and went on until the 12th of June, in fact most Giro's in the 80/90's went into early to mid June. I can't understand why they don't do that now, it's not like anyone attempts the double anymore. Starting 2/3 weeks later should be enough time to ensure that all the passes are clear, therefore creating much less stress and potentially having better weather in general..
Why did they start bringing the race to early May in the 20's?
Just wondered what people's thoughts on that would be?
 
Yes, to start off with moving it one week is a clear improvement. It would overlap with Dauphiné, but that's no issue. They have already requested that a few years ago, I think, so it's up to UCI.
I was thinking even two, was watching some of the classic stages from the 90's, in 1996 the Gavia literally had no snow at all, I know that it depends on what the weather is like (1988 on the Gavia an example). Even in 1994 they used both the Stelvio and Angello which in today's Giro would be a huge risk, but it was ok back then, even though they had some snow on the morning of the Stelvio if memory serves me correctly..
 
Going back to the whole Giro should start in late may and go into mid June discussion, I was looking at some of the Giro's of the 1990's. The 1994 Giro which was a classic, started on the 22nd of May and went on until the 12th of June, in fact most Giro's in the 80/90's went into early to mid June. I can't understand why they don't do that now, it's not like anyone attempts the double anymore. Starting 2/3 weeks later should be enough time to ensure that all the passes are clear, therefore creating much less stress and potentially having better weather in general..
Why did they start bringing the race to early May in the 20's?
Just wondered what people's thoughts on that would be?

I think betting on the weather in the coming years is tough. They might now push it into another spot and then other issues appear, like terrible heat in the south in June. Who knows whether it will be possible to ride the Tour in southern France in mid summer in future years. I think it's necessary to have better plans in store for cases, more flexibility and other options than just cancelling and shortening. The logistics must be prepared for switching stages etc. Maybe think about cutting stages in half, then switching places... it needs more planning, more flexibility and good and open communication from the start. Also I think for instance in case of constant cold rain the peloton must find solutions, like agreeing to stop to put on new clothes etc.
 
I'm pretty sure RCS would like the Giro to be postponed a couple of weeks. As for the UCI, I doubt it.
Question quickly becomes 'how often is it x or y weather' in what region and then somewhat take into account in designing your parcours. Obviously you're gonna be restricted by starting towns and finishing town first. But still the Giro can decide that Tre Cime is already hard and high, and you don't wanna risk too much cancellation there, so maybe you make the stage to Zoldo Alto harder instead of going over like 4 dolomiti peaks before you get to Tre Cime.

And I also really wonder how much $$ it takes to be able to host a stage finish.
 
I mean these have been 2 absolutely abysmal weeks of GT racing, there is just no way around that. And of course the organizers were extremely unlucky with Remco's and Tao's abandonments but frankly I still think this wouldn't be anywhere near as big of a topic if they had just designed a better route.

Every time nothing happens for the first two weeks of a giro (and let's be honest, that's quite a regular occurence) people predicted this to happen the second the route was announced. We always tend to get blinded by the potential of some crazy mountain stages not paying attention to their placement and what the gc situation might be before them. The Crans Montana stage was always completely relying on big gaps in the gc and considering how the route up to that point looked it was really completely relying on Remco destroying the TT's. That didn't work out so the stage was never going to deliver.

Right now if you think you are the strongest you might as well wait for stages 19 and 20 and if you aren't the strongest you are happy to stay close in the gc as long as everyone lets you. @Red Rick wrote it in todays stage thread, that sadly all the gc contenders have so far ridden completely rationally. But if you make a route where for two weeks that's the answer to "Why is nobody attacking" then I'm sorry, you didn't make a good enough route.

I don't want to write another essay on what to do differently. The problems are so obvious anyway. Routes are backloaded, they don't use the Apennine Mountains, they don't use the absurdly large potential to make medium mountain stages, they always get the order of stages wrong and really often the stage designs just suck. Why go into more detail when everyone could make a better route with a bit of effort. But that's exactly the problem. The lack of effort. Creating a good race is just not a priority and so we get this. Don't complain about the riders, don't say it's an excuse who crashed out. Those things might be true but they mostly hide the fact that these first two weeks have simply been a disasterclass in race design.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Black Betsy and KOM
I mean these have been 2 absolutely abysmal weeks of GT racing, there is just no way around that. And of course the organizers were extremely unlucky with Remco's and Tao's abandonments but frankly I still think this wouldn't be anywhere near as big of a topic if they had just designed a better route.

Every time nothing happens for the first two weeks of a giro (and let's be honest, that's quite a regular occurence) people predicted this to happen the second the route was announced. We always tend to get blinded by the potential of some crazy mountain stages not paying attention to their placement and what the gc situation might be before them. The Crans Montana stage was always completely relying on big gaps in the gc and considering how the route up to that point looked it was really completely relying on Remco destroying the TT's. That didn't work out so the stage was never going to deliver.

Right now if you think you are the strongest you might as well wait for stages 19 and 20 and if you aren't the strongest you are happy to stay close in the gc as long as everyone lets you. @Red Rick wrote it in todays stage thread, that sadly all the gc contenders have so far ridden completely rationally. But if you make a route where for two weeks that's the answer to "Why is nobody attacking" then I'm sorry, you didn't make a good enough route.

I don't want to write another essay on what to do differently. The problems are so obvious anyway. Routes are backloaded, they don't use the Apennine Mountains, they don't use the absurdly large potential to make medium mountain stages, they always get the order of stages wrong and really often the stage designs just suck. Why go into more detail when everyone could make a better route with a bit of effort. But that's exactly the problem. The lack of effort. Creating a good race is just not a priority and so we get this. Don't complain about the riders, don't say it's an excuse who crashed out. Those things might be true but they mostly hide the fact that these first two weeks have simply been a disasterclass in race design.
I mean I agree that the route has been bad for the first 12 days. But you also can't control favorites getting sick, crashing out, or crashing and recovering, nor can you control wind conditions on the precious few mountain stages you have in the first 13 days. San Bernardo should have never been taken out though.

However, the situation right now is that the top 3 favorites are happy to sit where they are and they can completely control the race. There's little anyone else can do. I am puzzled why Ineos isn't putting pressure on Roglic and Jumbo with Arensman and De Plus, cause you really don't want Roglic to just recover and get better for the hardest stages.
 

TRENDING THREADS