2023 Tour de France route rumors

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Why would that matter? What difference would it make for the start of finish host if the stage was like the previous to Bourg St. Maurice?

When Pontarlier hosted the start of the stage to Verbier, it did so even if only the first ~12 km were in France.

It wasn't a problem for the Giro:

I wasn't talking about the Giro. It's much more expensive to host a stage finish in the Tour. You'd want a decent ROI as a stage finish host.

The region / department often demands certain roads to be included

Bourg is not gonna pay for a TDF stage that is mostly in Italy and Switzerland. It's just not gonna happen unless ASO is willing to accept far less $$ for logistical reasons (which seems highly unlikely in this particular area)
 
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Bourg is not gonna pay for a TDF stage that is mostly in Italy and Switzerland.

Between 2009 and now, when did that change?

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Heck, between a few months ago and now, when did that change?

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No host cities would pay for that, I think. With the start and finish in France and most of the rest of the stage abroad.
Isn't the start and finish most important? A finish in Bourg in the Tarentaise valley should be of interest for some? And it would probably be a gread queen stage. Put just before a rest day, it would certainly create some great action for tv-viewers.
 
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Well, with the exception of the route of the ITT, we know a lot. At the end of the day, it looks like a relentless route without much rest which should make for some entertaining riders. Conversely I've come around to two softer stages for 18 and 19 to set up a whopper of a stage 20. I'd like more ITT ks but what can you do. Interesting likely route.
 
Likely Annemasse - Morzine stage profile, according to laoinfe at Le Gruppetto.


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major climbs

Mont Salève

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Ramaz

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Joux-Plane

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156 kms, 3,960m D+
That is really disappointing and typical of ASO. Just add the Col de Joux Verte and you have a really good stage with lots of attacking opportunities. It would only be around 180k ffs
 
Joux-Plaine is a really nice climb. But a stage with Joux Plaine in it is always the same. And that's a pity. Or with Ramaz before, or more comon something like Aravis/Croix Fry + Colombier. In both cases GC relevant racing is almost certain only to happen on Joux Plaine. While the combo Joux Plaine + Joux Verte would be such a good one. As a alternative a Joux Plaine + Les Gets combo could work as well (a soft version of Mortirolo - Aprica combo), if there are some nice dificulties before Joux Plaine.
 
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Only 1 stage in the Pyrenees make sense so early in the race. Although there are still rumours about Laruns as well. The only thing that doesn't make sense is having the Cauterets stage before the TTT. That should better be switched.

I don't like the spagetthi around Saint-Gervais, it just isn't the best location for linking climbs (as for the stage the next day).

General pace of the route seems fine. Sportive wise it's good that transfers between stagers are small. Final judgement of the route will depend on:
  1. will at least some of the mountain stages (Grand Colombier, Morzine, Courchevel and Markstein) offer possibilities to attack from further out and the maind difficulty of the day is not completely at the end of the stage.
  2. will some of the medium mountain stages like Issoire, Belleville/Chirouble, and jura at least offer some real possibilites for GC action.
  3. what they will do with TT in the end
  4. at least 1 or 2 stages for the real endurance atletes (not talking about long distance for the flat stages, but especially about the medium mountains)
  5. if from the 7/8 sprint opportunities at least a few were the sprinters need to really fight for it (survive a hill not far before the finish, punchy finish (last km really uphill), some obstacle 40 k for the finish were teams can attack the weaker climber sprinters, ect.)
 
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Only 1 stage in the Pyrenees make sense so early in the race. Although there are still rumours about Laruns as well. The only thing that doesn't make sense is having the Cauterets stage before the TTT. That should better be switched.

I don't like the spagetthi around Saint-Gervais, it just isn't the best location for linking climbs (as for the stage the next day).

General pace of the route seems fine. Sportive wise it's good that transfers between stagers are small. Final judgement of the route will depend on:
  1. will at least some of the mountain stages (Grand Colombier, Morzine, Courchevel and Markstein) offer possibilities to attack from further out and the maind difficulty of the day is not completely at the end of the stage.
  2. will some of the medium mountain stages like Issoire, Belleville/Chirouble, and jura at least offer some real possibilites for GC action.
  3. what they will do with TT in the end
  4. at least 1 or 2 stages for the real endurance atletes (not talking about long distance for the flat stages, but especially about the medium mountains)
  5. if from the 7/8 sprint opportunities at least a few were the sprinters need to really fight for it (survive a hill not far before the finish, punchy finish (last km really uphill), some obstacle 40 k for the finish were teams can attack the weaker climber sprinters, ect.)
Especially the stage to Saint-Gervais-Mont-Blanc is horrible to link with other climbs.
 
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Isn't it? I could make this route: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41303902

well, it's definitely hard. But is it a good design? From the top of the roseland it's about 40 k to the start of Col de la Loze. And even 15 more to the steep parts of the Col de la Loze. Such a stage design could have worked maybe in the 80's. But the most likely way is riders waiting till the 2nd part of the Loze.

We can hope the ASO suprise us with 2x Loze, or a strang loop to do a Loze + Courchevel (the climb) combo as was shown earlier in this topic.
 
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well, it's definitely hard. But is it a good design? From the top of the roseland it's about 40 k to the start of Col de la Loze. And even 15 more to the steep parts of the Col de la Loze. Such a stage design could have worked maybe in the 80's. But the most likely way is riders waiting till the 2nd part of the Loze.

We can hope the ASO suprise us with 2x Loze, or a strang loop to do a Loze + Courchevel (the climb) combo as was shown earlier in this topic.

I think the Col de la Loze is just too hard to make people attack before it, and both ways have a long valley before any major climb. The best way would probably be Col de la Loze and then Courchevel, as you mentioned I have already made such a loop. But if we would have that, there wouldn't maybe be anything before, to avoid the grupetto to be to far away, and then still climbing up, when the front group is coming down.
 
Especially the stage to Saint-Gervais-Mont-Blanc is horrible to link with other climbs.

Maybe it's intentional, considering the Friday and Saturday stages have a HC at the end.

The stage could be really soft. I'd be cool with just a Le Bettex descent finish (ascent via Cupelin) after like 100 kms of mostly false flat. They could easily bypass all other major climbs.

A badly designed actual mountain stage would be worse.
 
Maybe it's intentional, considering the Friday and Saturday stages have a HC at the end.

The stage could be really soft. I'd be cool with just a Le Bettex descent finish (ascent via Cupelin) after like 100 kms of mostly false flat. They could easily bypass all other major climbs.

A badly designed actual mountain stage would be worse.

well, they did last year with the Megeve stage in the same area, so yes that's possible. They could even leave the Bettex out of the stage.
 
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I think the Col de la Loze is just too hard to make people attack before it, and both ways have a long valley before any major climb. The best way would probably be Col de la Loze and then Courchevel, as you mentioned I have already made such a loop. But if we would have that, there wouldn't maybe be anything before, to avoid the grupetto to be to far away, and then still climbing up, when the front group is coming down.

one of the forum members should a really cool loop a few days ago here (Loze + Courchevel combo). That would avoid that problem. Don't know if ASO is that creative though.
 
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one of the forum members should a really cool loop a few days ago here (Loze + Courchevel combo). That would avoid that problem. Don't know if ASO is that creative though.
Thanks, that was me.
The problem would probably occur when the front group starting climbing to Courchevel, becuase it's only a 28 Kilometer loop, most of them downhill, 5 kilometer slightly uphill and 10 kilometer at 6 percent, so the grupetto can't be much more than 40 minutes behind. So the most likely stage like that would probably be flat until Col de la Loze, to avoid to big of a time gap.

Full stage: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41304657
 
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Thanks, that was me.
The problem would probably occur when the front group starting climbing to Courchevel, becuase it's only a 28 Kilometer loop, most of them downhill, 5 kilometer slightly uphill and 10 kilometer at 6 percent, so the grupetto can't be much more than 40 minutes behind. So the most likely stage like that would probably be flat until Col de la Loze, to avoid to big of a time gap.

Full stage: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41304657
If they‘re 40 minutes behind at ~50km to go, the grupetto is going to OTL on pretty much any Tour time limit if the stage isn‘t endlessly long so that should work out.
 
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Very good article reviewing all rumors, Le Markstein very likely will host stage 20, better than the top of the Grand Ballon.
Thanks very much for posting this. I noticed the map graphics (and the list in the graphic above the map do NOT line up the descriptions below the map. Especially for the dates and courses of the Pyrenees stages. I’ve been reading here and checking tweets and it seemed pretty solids that Stage 5 would finish in Cauterets/Pont d’espagne on 5July. Which is what’s shown on map. But the text below the map has that stage slightly different and happening on 6 July, with a stage to Laruns on 5July. I’ve made (refundable) reservations to stay in Cauterets for the 5July stage, hoping to beat the rush of reservations when official stage route announced.
 
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