2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Netserk]

are you not underestimating the difficulty of PdB? It's no Mortirolo, but it's clearly in the top 5 of hardest climbs the tours has used in the Pyrenees in their history. I'm not a particular fan of the climb, mainly because of the discusses issues with the connection to other climbs, but the first years it gaves quite some big differences as well. Pantani, Armstrong, Contador. Only Andy Schleck gave the excuse it wasn't steep enough after he was asked why nobody attacked.

Agreed, it’s a perfectly fine MTF.

 

[Ulle97]

I have absoluetly no clue. I only really know Longwy and the Mur de Bretagne. Maybe the ramp they used in the 2017 Marseille TT


Is the Col de Beyrède driveable?

Gerardmer in the Vosges.

There was a great finish they used in the 2014 Tour in Gerardmer. There are a lot of good climbs around the Gerardmer like the Col de la Schlucht also. The finish they used in 2014 was a couple of kilometres long at around 9 or 10% gradient. It was selective enough. IIRC, Contador managed to finish ahead of Nibali here before pulling out a few days later.

 

[Fyr3]

We seem all to agree, that Bonascre is better due to the preciding Pailheres. Despite that, how could the Plateau de Beille be fitted well? I don't see a very good option here, because the long valley in front of the climb destroys early attacks. I hope they will create Pyrenees stages like this year, and I don't see any way how Beille can be fitted into that scheme properly.

I had not considered that the Women's Tour appears to be headed for the Pyrenees in 2023, maybe instead of the men doing Ariege they do french basque country (Iraty?) and hautes Pyrenees to have "light" stages there, while the Women's tour could potentially have a stage in Ariege (Plateau de Beille, Ax 3) and something else to finish.

 

[Fyr3]

Except for that La Mongie stage you outlined, I hope this doesn't become reality. It would be a pretty mediocre route where all was centered around MTFs (Beille, Colombier, Loze, Izoard) to an even bigger degree than normal. In addition, would it be fairly long from Izoard to Paris for transfer to the last stage? It would make more sense if they did it the other way. Izoard MTF first in the Alps and the Grand Colombier on the pentultimate stage.

I started off doing what I would like to see but in the end it devolved into the hopeless finish I can imagine ASO coming up with
For Grand Colombier it doesn't necessarily have to be an MTF (though that would seem likely) but instead could be a descent finish (I would hope for the hard steep side followed by a descent to Culoz, definitely not the MTF of 2020)
Izoard I just put in as a meme because I was annoyed they missed it this year, something more concrete is rumours of a stage from Manosque finishing at either Pra Loup or Super Sauze, with potential of a return to some big climbs in the southern alps. My only concern with trying to predict a stage like this is that with the 2024 Tour set to likely finish in Nice it would make more sense to highlight the southern alps in a big way that year, so I am really clueless with the main massifs.

 

[Red Rick]

nah, PdB is way worse as a climb. It has hardly any climbing at 10-11 percent, plus there's always a headwind at the top.

I didn't really know about a big tendency for headwind, but I think it's very similar in that it's consistently hard in the first half before flatting off towards the end. It's also similar in that it's a super hard climb if a strong team wants to crush it but it's still fairly controllable if the strongest team wants to have a ceasefire.

What is Alpe d'Huez then? A Dutch colony?

Alpe d'Huez hasn't been Dutch since like 1990s. Don't let a few oranges with terrible musical taste convince you otherwise

are you not underestimating the difficulty of PdB? It's no Mortirolo, but it's clearly in the top 5 of hardest climbs the tours has used in the Pyrenees in their history. I'm not a particular fan of the climb, mainly because of the discusses issues with the connection to other climbs, but the first years it gaves quite some big differences as well. Pantani, Armstrong, Contador. Only Andy Schleck gave the excuse it wasn't steep enough after he was asked why nobody attacked.

This is half the reason I just don't like the Pyrenees. There's far less choice than the Alps, there's actually fairly few HC passes, and there's basically not one true monster. Add a tendency to use the same climbs and same towns again and again and again and it just gets lethargic. Hell they even manage to make an in theory great climb like the Tourmalet boring as *** 95% of the time.

Gerardmer in the Vosges.

There was a great finish they used in the 2014 Tour in Gerardmer. There are a lot of good climbs around the Gerardmer like the Col de la Schlucht also. The finish they used in 2014 was a couple of kilometres long at around 9 or 10% gradient. It was selective enough. IIRC, Contador managed to finish ahead of Nibali here before pulling out a few days later.

Gerardmer is considerably harder than Lausanne though, but it's also the sort of stage that's a great appetizer for the mountains.

 

[Red Rick]

I started off doing what I would like to see but in the end it devolved into the hopeless finish I can imagine ASO coming up with
For Grand Colombier it doesn't necessarily have to be an MTF (though that would seem likely) but instead could be a descent finish (I would hope for the hard steep side followed by a descent to Culoz, definitely not the MTF of 2020)
Izoard I just put in as a meme because I was annoyed they missed it this year, something more concrete is rumours of a stage from Manosque finishing at either Pra Loup or Super Sauze, with potential of a return to some big climbs in the southern alps. My only concern with trying to predict a stage like this is that with the 2024 Tour set to likely finish in Nice it would make more sense to highlight the southern alps in a big way that year, so I am really clueless with the main massifs.

For Grand Colombier I just want to see the 2020 stage minus the MTF. Add a few warmup climbs before.

 

[Fyr3]

I was thinking something like this:
16.) Manosque > Pra Loup
17.) Gap > ?
18.) ? > Col de la Loze
19.) flat(ish) transition
20.) ? > Lelex Monts du Jura (Via Grand Colombier from Culoz, col de richemond and then col de menthieres, i.e ASO finally try out the successful format of hard pass followed by smaller medium mountain terrain like Vuelta 2019 stage 20 or Vuelta 2021 stage 20
21.) Paris

They could even make the second climb harder by taking the start of the Col de la Biche then turning off onto a small road but I don't know if its feasible, looks paved but narrow. Second climb would be 7km 8% with 4km at 9% rather than 9km 5%

 

[Netserk]

I don't see that working, nor very likely to feature. Even the hardest side of GC with Biche afterwards would still have 60 km of 'easily' controllable terrain left. It'd work better with the finish in Valserhône, so a beefed up version of the 2012 stage (that is better situated in the overall route).

 

[Fyr3]

Coming back to the possibility of a double Tourmalet ascent if they do this original Hautes Pyrenees stage, could they finish in Bareges rather than the summit? Have they ever done this? I pose it as it seems more sportingly interesting than the La Mongie stage.

I found the source for the more interesting Hautes Pyrenees by the way, the person being interviewed said the department won't be seen as much as 2022 but will be more original (so very little details)

 

[houtdffan]

any chance that TDF will ever climb above the Tourmalet, going up close to the pic du midi? Maybe stopping at the Col de Laquets?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

are you not underestimating the difficulty of PdB? It's no Mortirolo, but it's clearly in the top 5 of hardest climbs the tours has used in the Pyrenees in their history. I'm not a particular fan of the climb, mainly because of the discusses issues with the connection to other climbs, but the first years it gaves quite some big differences as well. Pantani, Armstrong, Contador. Only Andy Schleck gave the excuse it wasn't steep enough after he was asked why nobody attacked.

I think it ranks 6th or so on cyclingcols.com, with Pailheres east just behind (which to me is definitely the harder climb ). Pyrenean Tour climbs only. I don't agree with their ranking, having climbed most climbs >900 points (not Portet and Horcere, though), but as long as Jumbo and Pog are performing at their current level any > 6% climb would probably cut it. Same with Contador and Rasmussen back then.

 

[Red Rick]

any chance that TDF will ever climb above the Tourmalet, going up close to the pic du midi? Maybe stopping at the Col de Laquets?

Probably not because who the hell would pay for it? It's not really a Loze/Portet like situation.

 

[houtdffan]

Probably not because who the hell would pay for it? It's not really a Loze/Portet like situation.

Perhaps La Mongie could pay?

Similar to how Serre Chevalier pays for finishes on different mountains?

 

[Fyr3]

https://www.cycloworld.cc/article/alles-over-de-nieuwe-col-de-la-tougnete-met-video/1818#:~:text=Officially%2C%20the%20road%20is%20not,hearts%20of%20cyclists%20beat%20faster

.

Interesting article here talking about Col de la Tougnete. I don't think they have done the Meribel side yet but from Les Menuires it is 34km at 5.7% (!)
At the end it also says that Col de la Loze is confirmed for 2023 but I have no idea where this information has come from. Possibility of Tougnete this year or do we think it will be saved for the future, especially if they pave the other side to Meribel?

 

[Fyr3]

View: https://youtu.be/8Jb-15BcFFQ

 

[Red Rick]

Perhaps La Mongie could pay?

Similar to how Serre Chevalier pays for finishes on different mountains?

Maybe. But I think Pic du Midi is a bigger logistical nightmare than Granon.

And I also think that when climbs have made their name, they don't really do a lot of "add this on top". Just about every ski station has roads going up higher than the stage finishes are.

 

[ice&fire]

Maybe. But I think Pic du Midi is a bigger logistical nightmare than Granon.

And I also think that when climbs have made their name, they don't really do a lot of "add this on top". Just about every ski station has roads going up higher than the stage finishes are.

They can just call it Super-Tourmalet

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

Yeah, was a bit ignored here and then

Regarding Col de la Loze:

There was/is a plan to connect the 3 valleys of the villages Chourchevel (Loze east side), Meribel (Loze west side) and Les Meuniers/Val Thorens (one valley west of Meribel) via high alpine road bike roads. The Col de la Loze (which by definition isn't even a mountain pass) is built, as well as the western ramp between Les Meuniers and Meribel (article link below). The eastern ramp might be in construction and is possibly ready for 2023.

Everything about the new Col de la Tougnète (with video) | cycloworld.cc

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, was a bit ignored here and then

That actually does sound really good.

But this is where I come back and wanna pave Col de Rosael

 

[75Driver]

Oh hell yes! The Col de la Tougnète. What a monster that would be

 

[Tonton]

That actually does sound really good.

But this is where I come back and wanna pave Col de Rosael

Yes, or better: a final with AdH, then descent of Sarenne, and finishing atop the (paved) Jandri way above Les 2 Alpes, The MTB "Mountain of Hell" would get a whole lot hellish.

 

[Cookster15]

Someone mentioned that you can go higher beyond the top of the Tourmalet? I'd love to see that?

But I assume Red Rick is saying PdB is to the Pyrenees what AdH is to the Alpes? I'd agree with this. There have been many epic finishes of PdB since 1998 when I first saw it (Pantani).

Col de Pailhères from Usson Les Bains (as a MTF) would be great to see. In 2005 I remember watching the GC contenders split into two groups and the sight of them riding up what looked like a wall.

Col de Pailhères climb via Usson Les Bains | 14.9 km | 2001 m | 8.1% - Climbbybike

 

[Cookster15]

This is half the reason I just don't like the Pyrenees. There's far less choice than the Alps, there's actually fairly few HC passes, and there's basically not one true monster. Add a tendency to use the same climbs and same towns again and again and again and it just gets lethargic. Hell they even manage to make an in theory great climb like the Tourmalet boring as *** 95% of the time.

An MTF to Col de Pailhères would be a first? From Usson Les Bains its a monster. Just my suggestion? If you can have a MTF on Galibier then there is plenty of room for crowds on the top of the Pailhères. Great views from the top as well which makes for television.

 

[houtdffan]

Maybe. But I think Pic du Midi is a bigger logistical nightmare than Granon.

And I also think that when climbs have made their name, they don't really do a lot of "add this on top". Just about every ski station has roads going up higher than the stage finishes are.

That's why I suggested stopping at the Col de Laquets, about 200m below the Midi summit itself

 

[OlavEH]

Interesting article here talking about Col de la Tougnete. I don't think they have done the Meribel side yet but from Les Menuires it is 34km at 5.7% (!)
At the end it also says that Col de la Loze is confirmed for 2023 but I have no idea where this information has come from. Possibility of Tougnete this year or do we think it will be saved for the future, especially if they pave the other side to Meribel?

Possibly a future combo in the Tour when the work on both sides are finished. First Tougnete, descent to Meribel and a climb to Loze?

If Loze are confirmed for next year, which seems fairly plausible, I hope that it is the penultimate mountain stage and are followed by something like a Joux-Plan stage or a descent finish after the Biche-Grand Colombier combo.