I'm glad you're content watching the decline of the sport in real timeSure, sure.
I don't think it takes much for the PWU to be offended, though.
Finally a descending finish that matters
I'm glad you're content watching the decline of the sport in real timeSure, sure.
I don't think it takes much for the PWU to be offended, though.
I think this route is brilliant for Evenepoel.This route might change some selections. I know that in the medium stages you need Classicomanos but how would Ganna fit with his team for this route?
I'm glad you're content watching the decline of the sport in real time
Finally a descending finish that matters
Which means those riders have to attack if they want to gain anything from the race. That means you get situations like in the latter part of this year's Tour where riders at the bottom end of the top 10 or just outside are attacking, and are close enough that teams of major GC riders need to keep them on a leash, driving the pace up and resulting in fewer domestiques available for the bigger names, resulting in more likelihood of a move from distance succeeding.It isn't the TT that creates the gap, there make them attack. It just send everybody else minutes behind.
One consideration is that 30-40 years ago the confrontations between the main contenders were direct, so strengths and weaknesses on the day could be exploited, not the super-orchestrated and controlled team efforts to pilot a rider into the ideal position to attack or defend. And today cycling knows so much about ideal preparation, effort sustainability, etc., that any attempts to go from afar are almost always doomed from the start. So it's a rebus. How do you get action when the racing, no matter what, is so calculated and controlled and the difference between the strongest guys is minimal?And if there are no time gaps that put the better climbers at a disadvantage, then they don't race on the road because they can do it in smaller, energy-saving bursts. We can point at the positive race in the 2022 Tour, but just the same you have the 2020 Tour, with Jumbo trying to win in time gains from uphill sprints exclusively before losing the title in the only ITT at the end of the race, or the 2012 Giro where everybody was so close on time that surely it was a super exciting race... except it wasn't, it was an absolute heap of mediocrity with everybody riding in formation on every mountain stages and then Purito attacking to gain five seconds at 250m to go (hyperbole).
Time gaps that put some capable GC riders at a disadvantage are crucial to incentivising action. I know that at the moment many of the best climbers ARE also the best TTers, but while the Wiggins tour is reductio ad absurdum (although he was the 2nd best climber in that race anyway), it's not like there weren't strong TTers contending for the podium when Contador, Evans or Menchov were around. The likes of Carapaz, Bernal, Quintana, López, they should be having to make speculative moves and desperation assaults to try to compete with the more rounded riders. That's how the pure climber has historically contended GCs, the Lucien van Impes, the Federico Bahamontes, the Lucho Herreras, the José Manuel Fuentes, the Claudio Chiappuccis, the Marco Pantanis. Hell, back in the day a fast pace on a flat stage and the best climbers would be turfed out the back in a way that's just not possible today with the increased professionalism and depth in the péloton. That's why they're beloved and there is so much romance in the sport attached to the wispy pure escalador. If they aren't disadvantaged by the TT mileage, then they don't have to attack from deep and the race is duller. The 2022 Tour had big gaps, and that was what made it good, because Pogačar couldn't just overhaul his deficit in ten second chunks in the last kilometre over and over, nor could he just sit in and wait for a TT where he was inevitably going to win like, say, Dumoulin's Giro win where the onus was on Quintana to extend his lead, not Dumoulin to attack it. The other issue is that with limited challenge against the clock, MTF-heavy mountain stages where the earlier climbs are likely to be soft-pedalled or tough flat stages to control, a team can just produce a super-powered mountain train and result in more domestiques being available when they hit the final climbs and less time spent with the leaders working mano a mano.
The ITT is not the only means to force these gaps, but it is the easiest and most obvious way to guarantee them - there are lots of other ways via rouleur challenges, and stages that force teams to balance out the selection, but sometimes those are dependent on location hosts (the cobbles of the north, the ribinou of Brétagne, for example) or the weather (crosswind stages). If ASO unveil their flat stages and there are a number of such challenges - ramps and repechos that will force gaps, crosswind-baiting stretches, dirt roads, bergs and similar that mean that we can expect sizable gaps from flat stages other than from an ITT, then it may not be a problem at all. Just look at the 2010 Giro, a much-loved race, but that only had 37km of ITT, 13 of which was a cat.1 mountain. However, alongside that it had 32km of TTT that forced more balanced selections (and in which Scarponi lost more time than in the rest of the race put together thanks to being pegged to Jackson Rodríguez' pace, an example I've often used against the fairness of the TTT), two 200+ kilometre flat stages in the Netherlands, one of which followed the coast and resulted in major echelon action, and a 200+ kilometre stage with dirt roads (which also had rain). Even before the L'Aquila stage that set the race into overdrive with the 50-man break and lack of control, Vino and Evans had a solid amount of time gained on Basso, Nibali, Scarponi and co., but Vino had lost a domestique and Evans had lost two. Both would be down to four helpers after stage 11. So you can get it right with a lack of time trial mileage and a good balance between the flatter stages and the mountain stages for time gap potential - but it's a much harder job to get right that way.
The people claiming that TT distance doesn't matter with the current crop of GC riders seem to ignore or forget about Evenepoel. Given that he has weaker support than Pogacar and especially Vingegaard and is (as of now) more vulnerable in the mountains, the most probable route to a really good Tour is having Evenepoel in yellow heading in to the decisive mountain stages. For that, you need a proper ITT, in this case between the Pyrenees and Alps.
From which of the first 12 stages of this Tour do you see Evenepoel accumulating at least a minute's worth of advantage on Pogacar and Vingegaard?Yes, he seems incapable of gaining time in mass starts...
Yeah, if they are both fit and in form next July, minuscule TT kilometers likely won't hurt the Tour in way it did the Giro this year.The two big favourites are almost equal in the ITT and also happen to climb faster than the pure climbers. A longer ITT would change very little.
That's fun and all, but it's completely irrelevant as to what the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the riders present or absent are. Time trialing is an essential part of the game, I'd argue it's the purest form of cycling, and an area that must be properly incorporated in the race, regardless of its startlist.I don't think the amount of TT Kilometres is a big deal. Last year Vingegaard was 39 seconds from Pogacar at the start of the Granon stage. 8 of those seconds was from a TT. With the top riders we have right now, we do not need many TT Kilometres. Pogacar and Vingegaard is almost as fast as each other. At the 40 Km TT there was also 8 seconds between them. But everybody else was miles behind. The next person from the top 10 (Vlasov) was 2 and a half minute behind them. It isn't the TT that creates the gap, there make them attack. It just send everybody else minutes behind. And it won't prevent Pogacar or Vingegaard from attacking, the want to win, a second place isn't good enough. It just give everybody else a bigger chance, so we wont get a battle between Vingegaard and Pogacar the next 10 years. And riders like Bernal and Carapz (Maybe Mas) there can compet against them in the mountains, will also get a bigger chance to win, so more people would attack.
Exactly.The two big favourites are almost equal in the ITT and also happen to climb faster than the pure climbers. A longer ITT would change very little.
That's fun and all, but it's completely irrelevant as to what the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the riders present or absent are. Time trialing is an essential part of the game, I'd argue it's the purest form of cycling, and an area that must be properly incorporated in the race, regardless of its startlist.
Ok, agreed, but on the other hand it is a matter of governance, although industry and the economics of industry trump governance. And so it is with the world, but I digress.It used to be in the days of Anquetil but lately and especially last 15 years timetrial has lost it's aura. It's always about high tech science, wind tunnels etc. It's the least pure form of cycling there is nowadays. Riders are spraying stuff on their legs, wearing balaclavas, have teamcars right behind them with 15 bikes and 50 wheels on the roof, putting on longer socks than footballers and taping kinesiotape all over their bodies to gain an advantage. What does this still have to do with cycling? How people can claim this is the purest form of cycling is beyond me.
Just add 20km in the valley and you'll have a decent and long ITT with hilly finale. It would improve both the stage and the route.Why does people suddenly love ITTs??
Just add 20km in the valley and you'll have a decent and long ITT with hilly finale. It would improve both the stage and the route.
Oh yes, because this year's Giro and the 2020 Tour weren't paralyzed at all lolPrudhomme is now saying TTs paralyze the race
He and Govenou should be fired into the sun
Don't argue that, nobody will take you seriouslyTime trialing is an essential part of the game, I'd argue it's the purest form of cycling,
You know that there is actually an ITT in the route?It seems like they are giving up a sure GC day full of race ramifications simply to delay the outcome to the third week if possible…