5 monuments - Cancellara or Gilbert?

[The Hitch]

Cancellara also can't sprint .

Are you really going to tell a guy whos won MSR and Flat stages of the tour that he will have a problem winning LBL or Lombardy because of his sprint.

And tbf, you dont need to be able to sprint when you can do this to sprinters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZgOaNnc-jU

and he isn't really the explosive type

Name me a more explosive rider than Cancellara. Heres a guy who wins 60km and 4km tts alike. He won that 4km tt in the Vuelta where the next best guys were Tom Boonen, Tyler Farrar.

Just look at RVV and PAris Roubaix this year and name me a more explosive rider. His attack on Boonen was one of the most explosive ever. He got a 20 second gap in like 5 seconds. 1 second they were together, and by the time Boonen got to the top of the hill, the camera spent 5 seconds zooming out to try and find Cancellara who was miles away.

 

[El Pistolero]

Are you really going to tell a guy whos won MSR and Flat stages of the tour that he will have a problem winning LBL or Lombardy because of his sprint.

And tbf, you dont need to be able to sprint when you can do this to sprinters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZgOaNnc-jU






Name me a more explosive rider than Cancellara. Heres a guy who wins 60km and 4km tts alike. He won that 4km tt in the Vuelta where the next best guys were Tom Boonen, Tyler Farrar.

Just look at RVV and PAris Roubaix this year and name me a more explosive rider. His attack on Boonen was one of the most explosive ever. He got a 20 second gap in like 5 seconds. 1 second they were together, and by the time Boonen got to the top of the hill, the camera spent 5 seconds zooming out to try and find Cancellara who was miles away.

Being able to sprint in a small group is always to your advantage, so yes it's important. I can give you countless of examples were it matters

Cancellara being a good time trial specialist still doesn't make him explosive. He can keep up a very high pace for a long time, but that's not what explosive means. Being explosive is a short burst of immense speed. So he dropped Boonen at the Muur, but not by being explosive. He won at P-R, but not by being explosive. He just kept an amazing pace for a long time. That's what makes him the best time trial specialist of his generation.

But LBL is a totally different race than P-R and Flanders. The many hills make it impossible for Cancellara to go out with 60km to go.

You're dreaming if you think he can drop guys like Gilbert or Valverde on the Saint-Nicholas or the Sormano. And if you can't drop them then you'll have to hope you can win in a group sprint

 

[ingsve]

Wouldn't Cancellara working for Sastre in the Tour of 2008 be a way better example?

Sastre/Schleck...same thing diffrent name...

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara being a good time trial specialist still doesn't make him explosive. He can keep up a very high pace for a long time, but that's not what explosive means. Being explosive is a short burst of immense speed. So he dropped Boonen at the Muur, but not by being explosive. He won at P-R, but not by being explosive.

Umm yes he is explosive. Yes RVV definately was a sudden injection of pace. You obviously didnt read my post so i will repeat some of the points. In rvv he decided he was going to drop Boonen and got a huge gap straight away.

If he was tting away from Boonen then his gaps would have looked something like this.
15k to go - 0 seconds
14 k to go 5 seconds
10 k to go 25 seconds
5 k to go 50 seconds
0 k to go 1 minute (taking into account celebration)

Thats what tting away from someone is. You slowly grind out a gap.

But in RVV 2010 Cancellara flew away from Boonen. Watch it yourself.

15 k to go - 0 seconds
14k to go - 20 seconds
10 k to go - 30 seconds
5 k to go 50 seconds
0 k to go - 1 minute.

In the 1st km he took about 20 seconds out of Boonen. That means he injected a high pace to get a gap, and once the gap was created he settled down into his rythm.

Hence he was explosive.
Do you understand

very high pace for a long time,

He wins 4k tts against sprinters. He beats sprinters by tting from 4k out, or MSR from 8k out. These arent long efforts.


I know you have for whatever reason a dislike towards Fabian, as has been pointed out by other posters on other threads, but it is just wrong to blindly claim that he tts every one of his results. Open your eyes. Even if you dont like him there is more to Cancellara than that.

You're dreaming if you think he can drop guys like Gilbert or Valverde on the Saint-Nicholas or the Sormano

I never said he would. Then again Valverdes on the naughty step and Gilberts focusing on PR. He just might

 

[El Pistolero]

Umm yes he is explosive. Yes RVV definately was a sudden injection of pace. You obviously didnt read my post so i will repeat some of the points. In rvv he decided he was going to drop Boonen and got a huge gap straight away.

If he was tting away from Boonen then his gaps would have looked something like this.
15k to go - 0 seconds
14 k to go 5 seconds
10 k to go 25 seconds
5 k to go 50 seconds
0 k to go 1 minute (taking into account celebration)

Thats what tting away from someone is. You slowly grind out a gap.

But in RVV 2010 Cancellara flew away from Boonen. Watch it yourself.

15 k to go - 0 seconds
14k to go - 20 seconds
10 k to go - 30 seconds
5 k to go 50 seconds
0 k to go - 1 minute.

In the 1st km he took about 20 seconds out of Boonen. That means he injected a high pace to get a gap, and once the gap was created he settled down into his rythm.

Hence he was explosive.
Do you understand




He wins 4k tts against sprinters. He beats sprinters by tting from 4k out, or MSR from 8k out. These arent long efforts.


I know you have for whatever reason a dislike towards Fabian, as has been pointed out by other posters on other threads, but it is just wrong to blindly claim that he tts every one of his results. Open your eyes. Even if you dont like him there is more to Cancellara than that.



I never said he would. Then again Valverdes on the naughty step and Gilberts focusing on PR. He just might

Cancellara said so him self he didn't attack Boonen in the RvV in an after race interview. Boonen misjudged a corner and cramped up at the Muur, hence why the gap would be big in such a short time. After the Muur Cancellara's gap gradually grew. Who the hell would attack on the Muur when sitting in his saddle? That's moronic. How can you even be explosive if you never get out of your saddle? If he's so explosive as you say then why can't he sprint if his life depended on it?

A prologue is a time trial, it's his thing, of course he's going to win it! Bradley Wiggins can win prologues and he's not explosive at all.

Being explosive means having an explosive burst of speed for like 1km at most! 8km? With a motor in your bike perhaps lol.
And exactly what in my post was negative about Cancellara? I like his riding style. Paris-Roubaix this year was one of the most boring races I've ever seen though.
Gilbert isn't even going to enter P-R next year.

 

[The Hitch]

Being explosive means having an explosive burst of speed for like 1km at most!
And exactly what in my post was negative about Cancellara?
Gilbert isn't even going to enter P-R next year.

1km? Ok then. Thats the Tour video i posted. 1k to go everyones still together. 800 to go Cancellara attacks. 500 he gets a gap. 200m, the best sprinters teams in the world arent going to stop him at this stage.

And if 4km tts are just another tt, then why wasnt David Millar, Bert Grabsch, Cadel Evans, SAmu Sanchez up there. They were the guys top in that Vueltas 30 k and 25 k tts.

Who instead was up there in the Vuelta short prologue- Tom Boonen 2nd Tyler Farrar 3rd Bennati 5th.

Why were these guys so good. Because they are the fastest in the peloton. In such a short time trial having a great top speed is important. And Cancellara won it Shows he does have a good top speed.

 

[El Pistolero]

1km? Ok then. Thats the Tour video i posted. 1k to go everyones still together. 800 to go Cancellara attacks. 500 he gets a gap. 200m, the best sprinters teams in the world arent going to stop him at this stage.

And if 4km tts are just another tt, then why wasnt David Millar, Bert Grabsch, Cadel Evans, SAmu Sanchez up there. They were the guys top in that Vueltas 30 k and 25 k tts.

Who instead was up there in the Vuelta short prologue- Tom Boonen 2nd Tyler Farrar 3rd Bennati 5th.

Why were these guys so good. Because they are the fastest in the peloton. In such a short time trial having a great top speed is important. And Cancellara won it Shows he does have a good top speed.

And where am I denying that exactly? Cancellara can keep a high speed for a long time. It's his biggest weapon in classic races and time trials alike.

And yes that stage win in the Tour of 2007. It's the only real example you have of an explosive Cancellara. At least explosive by my definition of the word.

With guys like Gilbert you have countless of examples.

Looking at Gilbert's season this year the examples of him being explosive:

Amstel Gold Race
Luik-Bastenaken-Luik
3rd stage at the Vuelta
19th stage at the Vuelta
World championship
Giro del Piemonte
Giro di Lombardia(although kinda ruined because Scarponi stuffed op his shifting)

You"re upset because I'm saying Cancellara's biggest wins are due to his time trial skills(and skills on the cobbles of course)? Denying that is like denying Boonen won Paris-Roubaix in 2008 because of his sprint.

 

[veganrob]

Cancellara is probably considered a stronger rider, but what about smarts? Is Gilbert a smarter rider? I believe that should also be taken into consideration.

 

[Parrulo]

just want to add that the fact that canc was sitting on his saddle when he attacked at the mur doesn't mean he wasn't attacking. getting of the saddle would reduce his rear wheel grip and he would waste power cus his wheel would be sliding(don't really know if this is the correct way to say it) and he did increased the pace when he saw boonen was struggling. and that is considered an attack.

canc is explosive on his own particular way. he is no gilbert(his attack on valverde and evans on LBL this year was epic) nor is he a contador but he is explosive.

 

[ingsve]

Cancellara is not terribly explosive nor is he by any means a sailboat. He can accelerate fairly well but not nearly as fast as good sprinters can.

Being explosive means that you can accelerate very quickly and by quickly we mean in seconds rather than minutes. Cancellaras strength isn't how fast his acceleration is but rather how long he can stay at a relatively high speed.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Gilbert, but he wont win P-R.

Canc. wont win L-B-L or lombardy.

Basically echoing like others have said..

I reallllly wanna see gilbert win flanders.
Also the worlds (no rider is more fitting for the rainbow imo)

 

[ultimobici]

Gilbert reminds me of Kelly in many ways.

Kelly won PR 3 times, MSR twice, Lombardia three times and would have the full set had he not sat up to cliam victory from Adri Van de Poel.

Kelly was 27 when he won Lombardia as was Gilbert so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he can do the job. After this year's Lombardia, perhaps a wet Roubaix or Ronde would suit him better than a dry one.

As for MSR, that also is not beyond him. At 28 he has a while to go before he is out of time. Plus he's more than a year younger than Cancellara.

 

[auscyclefan94]

gilbert but neither will do it.

 

[redranger]

Has any one watched the 2010 E3 when Cancellara attacked Boonen and JAF? that seemed exlosive to me, he also stayed with those three in the lead group on hills that were hitting 17%.
Sure he lost the 09 worlds RR but he has said over and over that it was a tactical error and that he has learned from it.

 

[la.margna]

How can you even be explosive if you never get out of your saddle? If he's so explosive as you say then why can't he sprint if his life depended on it?

All impressive Cancellara uphill accelerations have always been in the saddle. Watch the tapes.

Yes, he can't sprint, but has often found ways around it by explosive attacks a few km's before the finish and prologue-ing away.

Probably, if Gilbert were to focus on LBL in 2011 as well, it would be rather difficult (it's also still very difficult this way), but the impressive track record of Cancellara is the success rate when he focuses on one or more specific targets. But again, personally, I still think it is a risky bet from FC, will be very hard. If he suceeds, chapeau.

Gilbert however is younger and seems to have gotten better since he is with Omega, while before with FDJ, he had never any chance against Spartacus in finishes.

Summarised, if both will do it like presumably in 2011, i.e. focus on a different race, they might both achieve it. But it takes a lot, lot, lot of hard work and luck. And as mentioned a few times already, the most difficult races for non-sprinters to win, MSR and PR are already in Fabian's collection, giving him a slight advantage at the moment.

 

[la.margna]

Has any one watched the 2010 E3 when Cancellara attacked Boonen and JAF? that seemed exlosive to me, he also stayed with those three in the lead group on hills that were hitting 17%.
Sure he lost the 09 worlds RR but he has said over and over that it was a tactical error and that he has learned from it.

Yeah, he tactically acted like a schoolboy and the Spaniards kept on marking him and when he was alone in front with LLS he didn't continue his work as he got frustrated by being marked. But that's part of the game. He will be marked in every race he declares as his target, I will never understand why he always takes this line and puts so much pressure on him. Maybe he needs it.

But imagine he had started to prepare for LBL without telling all the world and suddenly attacks in the race. Nobody would care, as they would see it as tactical play to open the road for Babyschleck or amigo de birillo. But now his contenders will have him marked or mark him themselves...

E3 was explosive, but Boonen was also taken by surprise. But it shows FC's smart tactics. He attacked exactly when Flecha was in front who is less fast than Boonen and seemed to be the most tired of the three. So it was more surpirse than explosiveness and as soon as the chasers are in the wind, it's difficult to get the ITT world champ. However, if Flecha had been doing his work, I don't know if they wouldn't have caught him. But who cares. Great win by FC. Getting out of the saddle for once!

 

[gattopardo]

Cancellara cos smarter and explosive!

 

[El Pistolero]

just want to add that the fact that canc was sitting on his saddle when he attacked at the mur doesn't mean he wasn't attacking. getting of the saddle would reduce his rear wheel grip and he would waste power cus his wheel would be sliding(don't really know if this is the correct way to say it) and he did increased the pace when he saw boonen was struggling. and that is considered an attack.

canc is explosive on his own particular way. he is no gilbert(his attack on valverde and evans on LBL this year was epic) nor is he a contador but he is explosive.

Never happens to me at the Muur and I practically ride on it every day...

 

[la.margna]

Never happens to me at the Muur and I practically ride on it every day...

you lucky guy! you live close to the Muur!! wow, that's cool! I'm a bit jealous for this I have to admit!

 

[The Hitch]

Weve forgoten something.


The 2008 Olympic road race.

The Cancellara haters are saying - Ive only seen him try a hilly one dayer once - therefore he cant do it

The Cancellara haters are saying - Ive only seen him do a short fast effort once - therefore he cant do it

Well heres an example where Canc showed he can both do hilly one dayers AND be explosive.

the 2008 Olympic road race.

You guys forgot he took a bronze in that? That was a race in which all the favourites were gt guys. The winner was a gt guy. The runner up was a guy who won every ardennes classic in the same week. And Cancellara came 3rd. He was able to drop Valverde actually, when he attacked from the peloton, and despite that huge attack, he came into the leading group and beat Schleck Rogers and Kolobnev in the sprint.

DO NOT IGNORE THAT RACE.

 

[Archibald]

Never happens to me at the Muur and I practically ride on it every day...

are you likely to be puting the same power through your cranks as sparatcus was that day?

 

[El Pistolero]

are you likely to be puting the same power through your cranks as sparatcus was that day?

Well, since I usually ride just the Muur and Cancellara an entire long race perhaps I was

Then again, I wouldn't be able to ride on the Muur like that without getting out of my saddle. But it doesn't make you slip at all if you're doing it right. And Cancellara was doing it amazingly.

 

[El Pistolero]

Weve forgoten something.


The 2008 Olympic road race.

The Cancellara haters are saying - Ive only seen him try a hilly one dayer once - therefore he cant do it

The Cancellara haters are saying - Ive only seen him do a short fast effort once - therefore he cant do it

Well heres an example where Canc showed he can both do hilly one dayers AND be explosive.

the 2008 Olympic road race.

You guys forgot he took a bronze in that? That was a race in which all the favourites were gt guys. The winner was a gt guy. The runner up was a guy who won every ardennes classic in the same week. And Cancellara came 3rd. He was able to drop Valverde actually, when he attacked from the peloton, and despite that huge attack, he came into the leading group and beat Schleck Rogers and Kolobnev in the sprint.

DO NOT IGNORE THAT RACE.

Cancellara got a silver medal at the Olympics. And if he could sprint he would've won it.

But the race doesn't compare to LBL at all I'm afraid. Many cyclists pulled out because of the bad climatic circumstances and then there's always the date of the race that plays a major role.

And how hard the race may have been, LBL is harder with more hills and it's not a criterium type of race.
I think Cancellara can top 10 in a race like LBL, but winning it is something entirely different. Does someone have some info about Cancellara's weight by the way?

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara got a silver medal at the Olympics. And if he could sprint he would've won it.

But the race doesn't compare to LBL at all I'm afraid. Many cyclists pulled out because of the bad climatic circumstances and then there's always the date of the race that plays a major role.

And how hard the race may have been, LBL is harder with more hills and it's not a criterium type of race.
I think Cancellara can top 10 in a race like LBL, but winning it is something entirely different. Does someone have some info about Cancellara's weight by the way?

First it was said that Cancellara cant perform at all in hilly races. Then when it was demonstrated that he has, you change your tone and start dismissing Cancellaras chances at hilly classics because the hilly 1 dayers he has performed at werent called Liege Bastogne Liege and didn take place in Belgium

Using that logic Gilbert doenst have a chance at Paris Roubaix. Sure hes podiumed the tour of Flanders, but the Tour of Flanders isnt called Paris Roubaix and doesnt take place in France. Hence he doesnt have a chance

 

[El Pistolero]

In other words you are dismissing Cancellaras chances at hilly classics because the hilly 1 dayers he has performed at werent called Liege Bastogne Liege and didn take place in Belgium

Using that logic Gilbert doenst have a chance at Paris Roubaix. Sure hes podiumed the tour of Flanders, but the Tour of Flanders isnt called Paris Roubaix and doesnt take place in France. Hence he doesnt have a chance

I never said anything about Gilbert winning P-R in this thread? And I never said he can't do well in hilly races? I know he'll never win LBL how he is now.
MSR and PR will be the most difficult for him. I don't think Gilbert will ever win all 5 monuments. But he's the only cyclist that can do it without sacrificing something. With that I mean he can do well in Flanders, Lombardia, MSR and Luik without sacrificing them. If Cancellara wants to win in Luik he's probably going to skip Flanders, etc.

And you know, Beijing is famous for its high levels of smog. While Paris-Roubaix takes mostly place in... Nord Pas de Calais... Also called... French Flanders... You do know Roubaix used to be part of the County of Flanders right? The differences are next to non existent.