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6 Olympic athletes positive for CERA

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Schumacher is headed for some very deep water. I'm starting to think this guy is not only going to find himself banned for life, but he may very well find himself sitting in a jail cell for a while.

From the CN main pge. German Olympic Committee General Director Michael Vesper: "What Stefan Schumacher did there was a deviousness that can't be topped."

Beyond sporting, and likely criminal charges, Schumacher is also facing a lawsuit from former Gerolsteiner head Hans Michael Holczer who said he's going after Schumacher until the bitter end.

As we've seen with other cases, Jan Ullrich comes to mind, the Germans are maybe more harsh on their cyclists caught doping than any other nation. As noted elsewhere, Jan hasn't raced in 3 years, has no intention on ever racing, has already been banned, and they're still going after him, with Dr. Werner Franke leveling a lawsuit against him for sporting fraud set to start next month. Franke intends on going after Pevenage and Godefroot next.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
As we've seen with other cases, Jan Ullrich comes to mind, the Germans are maybe more harsh on their cyclists caught doping than any other nation. As noted elsewhere, Jan hasn't raced in 3 years, has no intention on ever racing, has already been banned, and they're still going after him, with Dr. Werner Franke leveling a lawsuit against him for sporting fraud set to start next month. Franke intends on going after Pevenage and Godefroot next.

I have not read anything other than fuzzy details about Franke's case. It seems that the german legal system varies significantly from the U.S. But it seems to me that a charge of fraud would be a hard case to prove. What is to stop the defendent from claiming that the DS, the manager, the race organizers, and the UCI knew very well what was going on and that doping is standard operating procedure in pro cycling?
 

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BroDeal said:
I have not read anything other than fuzzy details about Franke's case. It seems that the german legal system varies significantly from the U.S. But it seems to me that a charge of fraud would be a hard case to prove. What is to stop the defendent from claiming that the DS, the manager, the race organizers, and the UCI knew very well what was going on and that doping is standard operating procedure in pro cycling?


That was Frigo's defence which helped him to a suspended jail sentence. He raised the the point "How can you find me guilty when the institution itself expects and encourages doping. Find me guilty then find the entire sport from the UCI downwards guilty".
 
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ElChingon said:
...Cycling has not lost the battle, it is fighting and clawing its way through it. The other sport have not only lost it but have never even bothered to enter the battle, they continue to ignore it and will be the big losers in the end. Sure it may take time but the inevitable will happen and the small strides taken now by cycling will be the benefits reaped later. Benefits as in having a more solid and honest competition.

The optimist in me hopes this is true...that all the strides taken ultimately results in cleaner/more honest competition. And other sports that are currently ignoring (and/or covering up) their doping issues somehow pay for it.

The rapidly growing cynic in me is afraid it won't come true though...


dimspace said:
i do wonder what will stop it.. perhaps an adverse reaction during a race to a "triall" drug that results in a rider death or something (sounds grim i know)


Hasn't this scenario already happened many times over? And your aforementioned "it wouldn't happen to me syndrome" already kicked in?
 
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A new defense???

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr30news2

"Stefan Schumacher's attorney believes the positive doping control from the Beijing Olympics may be the traces of blood booster Erythropoietin (EPO) found in his client's system at the Tour de France – even if Schumacher denies ever using doping products."

I didn't know you could still completely deny using a substance...and yet your lawyer claims that it could be the residual effects in your system of the substance you did not use...

EDIT: Or is this just a 'clever' attempt at avoiding a potential lifetime ban for a second offense (trying to lump them together as one incident so to speak)...WITHOUT admitting to the first?
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Schumacher is headed for some very deep water. I'm starting to think this guy is not only going to find himself banned for life, but he may very well find himself sitting in a jail cell for a while.

From the CN main pge. German Olympic Committee General Director Michael Vesper: "What Stefan Schumacher did there was a deviousness that can't be topped."

Beyond sporting, and likely criminal charges, Schumacher is also facing a lawsuit from former Gerolsteiner head Hans Michael Holczer who said he's going after Schumacher until the bitter end.

As we've seen with other cases, Jan Ullrich comes to mind, the Germans are maybe more harsh on their cyclists caught doping than any other nation. As noted elsewhere, Jan hasn't raced in 3 years, has no intention on ever racing, has already been banned, and they're still going after him, with Dr. Werner Franke leveling a lawsuit against him for sporting fraud set to start next month. Franke intends on going after Pevenage and Godefroot next.

I'm begiing to think Holczer is culpable in this doping thing with his teams Gerolsteiner, the German Olympic outfit Shumi & co. How could he be so blind and so stupid as to not know that these guys--especially Schumacher--were performing way above their capabilities? This guy should think about moving to Spain
 
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flyor64 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr30news2

"Stefan Schumacher's attorney believes the positive doping control from the Beijing Olympics may be the traces of blood booster Erythropoietin (EPO) found in his client's system at the Tour de France – even if Schumacher denies ever using doping products."

I didn't know you could still completely deny using a substance...and yet your lawyer claims that it could be the residual effects in your system of the substance you did not use...

Smart move, because he has all the evidence against him. He needs a way out. In this case, if it were accepted, he still has a slight chance that his second positve could be 'excused'. In legal terms, you can't be tried for the same crime twice.

If he then builds his defense around doctors injecting him with stuff he didn't know what the hell it was, as in the 'I thought they were supplements' assumption, he could be a free bird soon ;)
 
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Bala Verde said:
Smart move, because he has all the evidence against him. He needs a way out. In this case, if it were accepted, he still has a slight chance that his second positve could be 'excused'. In legal terms, you can't be tried for the same crime twice.

If he then builds his defense around doctors injecting him with stuff he didn't know what the hell it was, as in the 'I thought they were supplements' assumption, he could be a free bird soon ;)

yeah...it dawned on me while you wrote this :D
 
Bala Verde said:
If he then builds his defense around doctors injecting him with stuff he didn't know what the hell it was, as in the 'I thought they were supplements' assumption, he could be a free bird soon ;)

I can't see that working.

Some doctors may be corrupt enough to provide doping products.

But to medicate someone without their knowledge? In most jurisdictions, that is a serious offence which would lead to the doctor losing his livelihood.
 
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Sheltowee said:
I'm begiing to think Holczer is culpable in this doping thing with his teams Gerolsteiner, the German Olympic outfit Shumi & co. How could he be so blind and so stupid as to not know that these guys--especially Schumacher--were performing way above their capabilities? This guy should think about moving to Spain

If the prevailing, but never outspoken, assumption is that many riders use something, in combination with a rejuvenated crack-down on dopers, a manager could well believe his formerly 'average' rider surfaced, after the dopers had been identified and pulled out. It's a wild guess, but perhaps he actually believed less riders in the peloton were doped, so that schumi finally showed his 'true potential'.

He was nonetheless wrong...
 
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Animal said:
I can't see that working.

Some doctors may be corrupt enough to provide doping products.

But to medicate someone without their knowledge? In most jurisdictions, that is a serious offence which would lead to the doctor losing his livelihood.

But hasn't this defense been attempted before? Not sure with cycling, but I recall it happening in baseball...stuff like "I thought it was vitamins..", etc.

Didn't Clemens claim he 'thought' he was getting Vitamin B-12 injections only...or something to the effect?
 
flyor64 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr30news2

"Stefan Schumacher's attorney believes the positive doping control from the Beijing Olympics may be the traces of blood booster Erythropoietin (EPO) found in his client's system at the Tour de France – even if Schumacher denies ever using doping products."

I didn't know you could still completely deny using a substance...and yet your lawyer claims that it could be the residual effects in your system of the substance you did not use...

EDIT: Or is this just a 'clever' attempt at avoiding a potential lifetime ban for a second offense (trying to lump them together as one incident so to speak)...WITHOUT admitting to the first?

I think that the WADA code says that a second offense must come after notification of the first offense. Otherwise the two are combined and the harshest sanction of the two positives is applied. Since cycling has only one sanction (two years) he should get two years. I do remember language in the code that left me with some ambiguity about certain scenarios. The code is available in PDF form on the web. It is pretty short.
 
flyor64 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr30news2

"Stefan Schumacher's attorney believes the positive doping control from the Beijing Olympics may be the traces of blood booster Erythropoietin (EPO) found in his client's system at the Tour de France – even if Schumacher denies ever using doping products."

I didn't know you could still completely deny using a substance...and yet your lawyer claims that it could be the residual effects in your system of the substance you did not use...

EDIT: Or is this just a 'clever' attempt at avoiding a potential lifetime ban for a second offense (trying to lump them together as one incident so to speak)...WITHOUT admitting to the first?

The important thing to note here is that Schumacher himself has always denied using doping products, and has not given any kind of statement concerning the newest charges.

The claim that this could be "left-overs" is being forwarded by his attorney, not by him. He might be speaking for his client, or he might be voicing his opinion. His statement did not indicate whether his client shared this opinion
 
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Susan Westemeyer said:
The claim that this could be "left-overs" is being forwarded by his attorney, not by him. He might be speaking for his client, or he might be voicing his opinion. His statement did not indicate whether his client shared this opinion

Damn, if it is him voicing his opinion, I think Shumi needs to sit down and have a good long chat. No matter why I required a lawyer, I'd be hiring him for his legal abilities in clearing me of the matters. Certainly not for sharing his opinion, particularly if that opinion isn't beneficial to my case!

Cheers
Greg Johnson
 
Perhaps it's again consitution, but I really feel that denying intentional doping, when later confessed (they all break down some day) or proven beyong reasonal doubt, should be punished extra-hash.
If Schumacher later turns out to have just try the denying game in order to keep his carreer alive, hope it floats over as bigger scandals unfold, 2-year ban will not be sufficient. Same for Valverde, playing the legal defence game, rather than the cauht redhanded, admitted and gone away in shame path.
MY fellow countryman Mark Lotz was caught for regular EPO. He came right forward, admitted his mistake, and was a schhol teacher fo 2 years until the ban expired. Such behaviour, that's the text book case for a 2-year suspension. Denying for a year or longer, swearing on bibles and family graves, before being convicted based on proof, 2 years just doesn't cut it. You poison the sport by staying in it after you willingly "took".

Another thing I don't understand about dopers: if someone's been caught with a given drug, why then take it AND get a podium performance? It won't be long until your name is on the front page for all the wrong reasons.

Imagine it would be your dad...way to be a role model.
 
Cloxxki said:
Perhaps it's again consitution, but I really feel that denying intentional doping, when later confessed (they all break down some day) or proven beyong reasonal doubt, should be punished extra-hash.

What happens when an innocent person gets accused? He will be in a situation where fighting the charge risks extra punishment.

A better solution would be a real set of incentives for cooperation. Providing information about managers, other riders, doctors, and Fuentes-like operations should reduce the suspension to a few months. The U.S. mafia has been dramatically reduced because of all the rats. The same technique might eventually work for cycling.
 
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Animal said:
I can't see that working.

Some doctors may be corrupt enough to provide doping products.

But to medicate someone without their knowledge? In most jurisdictions, that is a serious offence which would lead to the doctor losing his livelihood.

I agree with the last statement. And I have argued many times before that doctors should be prosecuted with the same fervor they prosecute riders. They are the ones that provide/administer products, that they should NOT, because the 'patient' does not 'need' that product for his health and well being. IMO, it goes against everything a doctor is supposed to stand for, and the oath they took. Even with a rider's knowledge, he should not be giving it to him/her.

But check the PDM intralipid affair. It is slightly different, in that the riders were being told what substance they were injected with, namely 'Intralipid', but they really had no idea what the hell it was. They only 'knew' that it had the potential to make you a couple of % faster/better, over the course of three weeks, because it would help you recuperate faster after a stage. Intralipid was a supplement, that replaced fat from your daily diet.

It was a last minute decision, only a couple of weeks before the TdF, that the team doctor, who had been informed of the potential rewards of the substance only then, that he decided to use it during the TdF.

Afterwards, research has shown that those acclaimed benefits, were highly exaggerated and the simple addition of a doughnut to your daily calorie intake, would have had a similar or better affect.

Shows to prove that even doctors sometimes don't know what the xxxx they are doing!
 
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Cloxxki said:
Perhaps it's again consitution, but I really feel that denying intentional doping, when later confessed (they all break down some day) or proven beyong reasonal doubt, should be punished extra-hash.

I vote for Gitmo and waterboarding...
 
Animal said:
I can't see that working.

Some doctors may be corrupt enough to provide doping products.

But to medicate someone without their knowledge? In most jurisdictions, that is a serious offence which would lead to the doctor losing his livelihood.

Did not one of Postal's soigneurs say that Vaughters was troublesome because he wanted to know what was being injected into him? The other riders would stretch out their arms and let the doctors inject away.

On the U.S. national team that Armstrong was part of, the coaches lied to the riders about what they were injecting. Greg Strock later sued when he figured out he had been injected with corticosteroids. At least on other teammate confirmed what was going on. Coach Carmichael, Armstrong's friend and supposed coach and the coach who injected the drugs, settled out of court.
 
But to medicate someone without their knowledge? In most jurisdictions, that is a serious offence which would lead to the doctor losing his livelihood.

You need to read Willy Voet's tell-all book. It's far more common than you realize.

Thomas Springstein - German athletics physician went to jail for just that, injecting people with "vitamins" which later proved to be doping products, possibly Repoxygen.

Jesus Manzano noted that while on Kelme everyone lined up for their shots. They knew what was going on, but some riders had no idea what was going in them.

One of Werner Franke's arguments is that he's going after the doctors and trainers that doped Ullrich. He says Jan has a child-like mentality and would have had no idea what they were pumping him with - hence why he pleaded with Jan (apparently to his face once) to get him to finger those that "poisoned" him. Also regarding Franke - he plans on introducing the Operation Puerto 6,000 page dossier at the hearing. Once the hearing is over, it will technically be legal for anyone to attain, which is part of Franke's goal.

I believe it's in the Lemond-Betsy Andreu interview where she says George Hincapie doped for quite a while on Postal, always looking the other way. If true, it means exactly what you're proposing.

A slight diversion, but one thing to keep in mind that may be good: The speeds riders are climbing was actually a little bit slower in 2008 than in 2007, and a little slower in 2007 than 2006, and slower than 2005. At least according to Christian VandeVelde. I'd like to think this says we're seeing less doping anyway.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
You need to read Willy Voet's tell-all book. It's far more common than you realize.

Thomas Springstein - German athletics physician went to jail for just that, injecting people with "vitamins" which later proved to be doping products, possibly Repoxygen.

Jesus Manzano noted that while on Kelme everyone lined up for their shots. They knew what was going on, but some riders had no idea what was going in them.

One of Werner Franke's arguments is that he's going after the doctors and trainers that doped Ullrich. He says Jan has a child-like mentality and would have had no idea what they were pumping him with - hence why he pleaded with Jan (apparently to his face once) to get him to finger those that "poisoned" him. Also regarding Franke - he plans on introducing the Operation Puerto 6,000 page dossier at the hearing. Once the hearing is over, it will technically be legal for anyone to attain, which is part of Franke's goal.

I believe it's in the Lemond-Betsy Andreu interview where she says George Hincapie doped for quite a while on Postal, always looking the other way. If true, it means exactly what you're proposing.

A slight diversion, but one thing to keep in mind that may be good: The speeds riders are climbing was actually a little bit slower in 2008 than in 2007, and a little slower in 2007 than 2006, and slower than 2005. At least according to Christian VandeVelde. I'd like to think this says we're seeing less doping anyway.
There was a power wattage plot in another thread but it stopped right at 2005. Where can I find the recent tours power output numbers??
 
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Does it matter if it's old EPO?

Even if it's true that the EPO in the Beijing test was 'leftover' from the Tour, does it really matter?

He should never have been at the Olympics in the first place because of the Tour positive.

Tough **** if you get caught twice for the same injection.
 
jdughi said:
Even if it's true that the EPO in the Beijing test was 'leftover' from the Tour, does it really matter?

He should never have been at the Olympics in the first place because of the Tour positive.

Tough **** if you get caught twice for the same injection.
The problem is that he did not know of the Tour Positive at the time he was riding at the Olimpics.
 
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SICK OF THE LIES?
"My conscience is clear, I did not take anything," - Rebellin's first reaction to his positive test. Does this reaction sound familiar to you? I'm sure it does. We hear, time after time, disgraced riders continuously flaunting their innocence at us. The vicious circle of doping is maintained and we are all left feeling empty, cheated and hollow once again. The laborious process is churned out through various courts of law until we all become disillusioned and the sport is left to pick itself up of the floor, waiting for the next positive test.

We have become almost immune to the lies. Remarks of "I'm innocent" or "my sample was spiked" are becoming part of the process and methodology that a rider feels necessasry to pollute us with once caught. Please show the fans SOME respect. The lies that accompany a positive test result have become almost as stomach churning as the positive test itself. It would be a whole lot better for the sport if you just held your hand up and admitted your errors, why you doped, how you doped, did you really want to dope, risking your health, livelihood, relationships and reputation? Have riders not learnt anything over the last number of years? Positive test? There's nothing positive about it.

Have you lied and deceived people so much that you don't even know yourself if you are telling the truth or not, lost in a web of deceit? Do the riders truly want an end to doping, as has been suggested? The fans need the good guys in the peleton to stand up and be counted for our sport to survive. Yet again a positive test produces more questions than answers and weakens our faith in our sport.
Our conscience is clear, is yours?


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