86th Tour de Suisse (2.UWT) // June 11th - 18th 2023

[RedheadDane]

Dear Gino

I know you are not going to read this, and I know you don't care about someone silly old woman on a cycling forum.
But you hang in there, young man. You are a fighter. You can make it!

 

[LTNN87]

The thing that concerns me the most is that he has been taken to Chur hospital, and not to the closer Samedan hospital like Sheffield (I checked, that one has a helipad too). Suggests the acute treatment required is beyond the scope of what a smaller, more local hospital can offer, which cannot be good news.

Horrible accident and I hope Gino is ok. I am not an expert on the swiss hospitals but Chur is also not a major hospital and if it is really bad I think they would bring him to Zürich or Inselspital in Berne. Maybe just wishful thinking from me but I hope not.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

That's a long fall

Is there a sharp corner right before where they went off?

I'm asking because from the pictures it looks like a fairly weak curve, that they went off the inside off, which sounds more like a riding error than the descent being dangerous?

As somebody commented above, it's a blind corner taken at high speed with an early apex, so a rider has little opportunity to change the trajectory of their exit at the last moment, and there is a drop to a ravine out of the corner, without barriers.

In my opinion its dangerous. Whether corners like that are too dangerous to use in races at all, is difficul to say, but in my opinion probably.

There was definitely also rider error involved, but riders are bound to make errors occasionally, and in a corner like that a guy who doesn't know the road can quite easily make an error that has the worst possible consequences, and its not their fault.

 

[Riek s]

Well its clear that finishing on a descend creates a lot more safety concerns then not doing that. It is probably one of the most dangerous things in cycling.
But its a whole other manner to ban it. Maybe they should find a better way to protect specific areas/corners if they want to have that descend as a deciding factor.

I believe sheffield missed that drop with the pipes. Mäder seem to ride straight of that part . Can't imagine what goes through your head when fly of that. Hope Mäder makes it through... we have seen enough deaths in cycling the last decenia...

 

[Boehmand]

As somebody commented above, it's a blind corner taken at high speed with an early apex, so a rider has little opportunity to change the trajectory of their exit at the last moment, and there is a drop to a ravine out of the corner, without barriers.

In my opinion its dangerous. Whether corners like that are too dangerous to use in races at all, is difficul to say, but in my opinion probably.

There was definitely also rider error involved, but riders are bound to make errors occasionally, and in a corner like that a guy who doesn't know the road can quite easily make an error that has the worst possible consequences, and its not their fault.

If the corner it blind, it should be marked with arrows, or a moto-dude with a flag and a whistle, like the do in descents on the Tour.

If it was not, that is clearly an error on the part of the organiser.

 

[Didinho]

As somebody commented above, it's a blind corner taken at high speed with an early apex, so a rider has little opportunity to change the trajectory of their exit at the last moment, and there is a drop to a ravine out of the corner, without barriers.

In my opinion its dangerous. Whether corners like that are too dangerous to use in races at all, is difficul to say, but in my opinion probably.

There was definitely also rider error involved, but riders are bound to make errors occasionally, and in a corner like that a guy who doesn't know the road can quite easily make an error that has the worst possible consequences, and its not their fault.

Blind corner without barriers, with these Suisse downhill speeds. If you put 1 guy with a whistle at such points, gesturing to slow down a bit, you have a much more safer turn there.

 

[RedheadDane]

Blind corner without barriers, with these Suisse downhill speeds. If you put 1 guy with a whistle at such points, gesturing to slow down a bit, you have a much more safer turn there.

And just yesterday - or maybe it was the day before - they had two guys marking a train crossing.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Other riders said the same thing. Bardet is quoted to have said he was terrified in the descent and when he saw Sheffield crash, he "feared for him". He must also be an idiot.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Other riders said the same thing. Bardet is quoted to have said he was terrified in the descent and when he saw Sheffield crash, he "feared for him". He must also be an idiot.

You have the bardet quote? I believe you but I'm interested to see it, his descending is extremely strong, would be good to see his opinions on the descent because in my opinion that corner shouldn't be in a race for the line

 

[Volderke]

Finishing descents and descending in general are part of the sport, with their inherent dangers. At some point something horrible happens. It's a statistical thing, but you can't eliminate risk. Sprinters are at risk, any descent is risky, Downpours can cause crashes, stray dogs, cats, errant vehicles, poor route indications, entering straight cobbled sections too at 60 km per hour. It's nuts. But it's cycling.

I'm not really wanting to focus too much on your comment alone, but you mention risk as a general thing in bike racing.
I would argue that 100 K/hr descends in the Alps are among the highest risk environments a rider can be exposed to, for several reasons, and I only realized this after having done some of these descends myself.

You have a combination of thin air, more overall body fatigue, the lack of oxygen resulting in reduced assessment of the situation you are in, and reduced control / reactivity; Next you have the overwhelming speed in a 3D landscape with steep slopes and uneven pavement at the inside of curves. You feel tiny in those big curves and once you go into the apex, you can only hope the curve isn't going more inwards because you know you can't correct anymore, and going into such curves, it can be very hard to modulate your speed.
You can go 60 K/hr in a sprint, but in a 80-100K/hr descend, 60k/hr is way too slow to keep up, so you have a very hard time deciding whether you brake from 100 to 70K/hr when going into the next curve, or 60K/hr. The difference seems small, but the margin of error is already thight. It is very hard to get into some kind of flow taking the next curve and deciding how hard (and when) you should start braking.

 

[RedheadDane]

Other riders said the same thing. Bardet is quoted to have said he was terrified in the descent and when he saw Sheffield crash, he "feared for him". He must also be an idiot.

If Bardet is questioning a descent, then it probably wasn't all that easy.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Other riders said the same thing. Bardet is quoted to have said he was terrified in the descent and when he saw Sheffield crash, he "feared for him". He must also be an idiot.

Important to note here that the crashes happened literally in the first curve of the descent, and just about everyone will have seen it happen/that it happened. I can’t blame anyone for being scared after that, but it’s only natural that you perceive a descent as more dangerous once you’ve seen someone crash, so I don’t think rider perception is a great indicator of dangerousness in this case. Especially given that this descent has been used every 3-6 years in this race and passed largely without incident every single time until today.

As for the corner itself, the aspects of it that do and don’t contribute to its difficulty have been dissected in detail now, because of what happened, but it’s hardly a particularly unique corner. Does anyone really think that a 90-degree blind corner with a big drop on the exit is at all rare in this sport? Also can’t blame the organisers for not thinking additional safety measures were necessary for this specific corner because it hasn’t tended to cause crashes in the many times it’s been descended. For me, it’s one of those ‘this sport will never be entirely safe and there’s only so much we can do about it’ crashes, because from what we know there was nothing particularly special about the bike handling of Sheffield or Mäder, and clearly also not about the course.

 

[Scarponi]

Lol. Your insane hate. Truly fascinated by your investment in one person‘s failure.

humans are truly mysterious.

”ignore“? Check.

love this feature.

ba-bye

Sorry you blocked me, I really like Remco, and I hope he succeeds and he had a great Veulta for his age . He would be 1000% better off without his fans being so intense. You’d be better off logging off the forum and stop being obsessive over someone else’s career and achievements lol

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I agree that this descent is not what is generally considered dangerous. It's wide, with good pavement and without a lot of tecnical corners, except for the hairpins. However, i'm starting to thinck that this kind are as dangerous, if not more, than the really twisty one. I think it's a combination of rider beeing willing to take more risks if they fill the downhill is less dangerous and the consegueces of the crashes beeing more severe due to the high speed. Of course tecnical descends on narrow road can cause a lot of crashes, like the one from Colma di Sormano, but at the same time downhill like those always stir up some controversies, while, if todays crashes were not to happen, i doubt someone would have brought up the feasability of the Albula descent in a race.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Important to note here that the crashes happened literally in the first curve of the descent, and just about everyone will have seen it happen/that it happened. I can’t blame anyone for being scared after that, but it’s only natural that you perceive a descent as more dangerous once you’ve seen someone crash, so I don’t think rider perception is a great indicator of dangerousness in this case. Especially given that this descent has been used every 3-6 years in this race and passed largely without incident every single time until today.

As for the corner itself, the aspects of it that do and don’t contribute to its difficulty have been dissected in detail now, because of what happened, but it’s hardly a particularly unique corner. Does anyone really think that a 90-degree blind corner with a big drop on the exit is at all rare in this sport? Also can’t blame the organisers for not thinking additional safety measures were necessary for this specific corner because it hasn’t tended to cause crashes in the many times it’s been descended. For me, it’s one of those ‘this sport will never be entirely safe and there’s only so much we can do about it’ crashes, because from what we know there was nothing particularly special about the bike handling of Sheffield or Mäder, and clearly also not about the course.

That's a fair point, but it does show that not only Evenepoel who is now getting called out by many here and elsewhere, and who also saw the crash or at least the immediate effect as he was only 7s behind Sheffield over the top of the climb, is now voicing the exact same concerns. Regardless whether those concerns are only a result of seeing an other rider crash, or because the descent is actually dangerous. You do have to note that both riders in different groups crashed at the exact same point in the descent.

To those who say he only does so because he can't descend and is saying this just out of opportunism, i'd like to point out he only lost 8s in the descent to Ayuso who was "flying".

 

[laarsland]

These attempts at points scoring from both the anti- and pro-Remco-brigades. Please just leave it for now/go to the designated thread.

 

[zlev11]

I just woke up and haven’t watched the stage yet , was the descent dangerous or just a mistake from the riders?

they've done this same descent finish about half a dozen times in tour de suisse, it's fine. accidents happen.

 

[Netserk]

I agree that this descent is not what is generally considered dangerous. It's wide, with good pavement and without a lot of tecnical corners, except for the hairpins. However, i'm starting to thinck that this kind are as dangerous, if not more, than the really twisty one. I think it's a combination of rider beeing willing to take more risks if they fill the downhill is less dangerous and the consegueces of the crashes beeing more severe due to the high speed. Of course tecnical descends on narrow road can cause a lot of crashes, like the one from Colma di Sormano, but at the same time downhill like those always stir up some controversies, while, if todays crashes were not to happen, i doubt someone would have brought up the feasability of the Albula descent in a race.

The descent from Aubisue to Soulor is dangerous, but it is well-known and so thankfully no rider crashes there. But just imagine if one does.

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Official statement from Bahrain team:

Gino Mäder crashes out from Tour de Suisse - Team Bahrain

Bahrain Victorious Swiss rider Gino Mäder was involved in a crash on the descent towards La Punt, finish line of stage 5 at Tour de Suisse.The rider went off the road and fell into a ravine, where he was promptly assisted by the race doctor. Mäder was found unresponsive, resuscitated at the...

bahraincyclingteam.com

"Bahrain Victorious Swiss rider Gino Mäder was involved in a crash on the descent towards La Punt, finish line of stage 5 at Tour de Suisse.
The rider went off the road and fell into a ravine, where he was promptly assisted by the race doctor. Mäder was found unresponsive, resuscitated at the scene and then transported by helicopter to Chur Hospital.
More news about the consequences of the accident will follow after Mäder undergo further examinations.
Our thoughts and prayers are with Gino."

Having two horrible crashes in the same corner is quite sad, hoping the best for Gino.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The descent from Aubisue to Soulor is dangerous, but it is well-known and so thankfully no rider crashes there. But just imagine if one does.

To be fair, this one is more high speed, but still the Tour also has difficult descents, but nobody ever speaks up against the Tour.

 

[Brullnux]

I agree that this descent is not what is generally considered dangerous. It's wide, with good pavement and without a lot of tecnical corners, except for the hairpins. However, i'm starting to thinck that this kind are as dangerous, if not more, than the really twisty one. I think it's a combination of rider beeing willing to take more risks if they fill the downhill is less dangerous and the consegueces of the crashes beeing more severe due to the high speed. Of course tecnical descends on narrow road can cause a lot of crashes, like the one from Colma di Sormano, but at the same time downhill like those always stir up some controversies, while, if todays crashes were not to happen, i doubt someone would have brought up the feasability of the Albula descent in a race.

I think that can be explained by the sheer pace of technical/narrow descents vs these ones. A crash will likely do less damage on conventionally "dangerous" descents than a tricky barrier-less corner in a flat out, 8% wide road.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

The descent from Aubisue to Soulor is dangerous, but it is well-known and so thankfully no rider crashes there. But just imagine if one does.

Well i'm not saying races should only go down tecnical and dangerous descent, i'm just pointing out that the danger of easier but faster descend should not be underestimated, especially by the organiser and the riders. Just to be clear, i don't want to blame the organiser for this particular crashes, first of all because we don't know the dynamic yet, and second because Albula with la Punt arrive was used many times before without such serious incidents. But, maybe, steps can be taken to prevent such crashes in the future. A marshall signaling the curve or ski style net placed at the exit of the corner may have prevented or at least diminished the conseguences of Mader's crash, and while this are precaution often used if the downhill is perceived as dangerous, i rarely see them on the "nicer" ones like the Albula's

 

[Netserk]

It was only meant to expand on the point that it's not always clear what is truly dangerous. If it looks really dangerous, riders will be more cautious.

 

[Ricco']

Wonder if new bikes and positions are more prone to serious crashes.

More aero geometries, faster bikes, ban of supertuck and similar positions leads to change in handlebar angles and positions, disk brakes who lead to start braking closer to the turn (so if something happens, they reach the turn with higher speed). I think while tech advancements done in the past decades have made it easier and faster to race a bike uphill and on the flat, at the same time it didn't led to the same improvements regarding safety.

 

[Hugh Januss]

It was only meant to expand on the point that it's not always clear what is truly dangerous. If it looks really dangerous, riders will be more cautious.

I always preferred tight twisty descents, where if you mess up you slide a few feet on your hip and knee, to the sweeping fast 100 K an hour wide open don't even have to mess up just puncture at the wrong moment and you might be flung off into oblivion type of descents. But maybe that's just me.