A Dave Millar thread

[thehog]

Re:

Millar tweets

"Today is the opening ceremony of the Olympics. PLEASE READ THIS, IT MATTERS:"

linking to this article: https://www.propublica.org/article/olympics-top-investigator-secret-efforts-undermine-russian-doping-probe

Millar then tweets

"Reference my previous tweet, I believe the underlying problem in all of this is the chronic cronyism of the IOC."

how is the irony of this not lost on him?

Hilarious! and Cookson was dong selfies with Thomas Bach today, lol! Take that internet! :lol:

 

[Benotti69]

Some of a Millar Q&A

https://twitter.com/swtriathlete/status/839583447442157579

Millar is such a snake.

 

[blackcat]

I luv Davey Millar.

If there was not a Dave Millar, we would have to create him.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I luv Davey Millar.

If there was not a Dave Millar, we would have to create him.

There is a queue of people who would love Millar's current position and play it in the same manner!!

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I luv Davey Millar.

If there was not a Dave Millar, we would have to create him.

There is a queue of people who would love Millar's current position and play it in the same manner!!

when you thought the most meretricious humans on this earth were marketing people, advertising creatives, and standup-comics, FM radio announcers, and game-show hosts, along comes David Millar to blow them out of the water. chapeau dave

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

I luv Davey Millar.

If there was not a Dave Millar, we would have to create him.

There is a queue of people who would love Millar's current position and play it in the same manner!!

when you thought the most meretricious humans on this earth were marketing people, advertising creatives, and standup-comics, FM radio announcers, and game-show hosts, along comes David Millar to blow them out of the water. chapeau dave

Poor Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

JV crickets.
Millar crickets too?

grasshoppers, crickets, preying mantises, entomology101
wasp stings #failure. oh roger legeay would not allow me to get a hot of cortisone for my eye and my wasp sting true story, no BS

 

[sniper]

Reposting this from the motorthread, as I think it warrants separate discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4586&v=2KOQ_GXGBc0

I think this is one of the most suspicious rides I've seen thus far in terms of suspected motor use.

It's only a 41.6km course, but Millar is nevertheless going to win this one with a good 1:25 margin on the number 2, a Ferrari-fueled Mick Rogers.

That in itself is nothing overly suspicious - rampant PED-abuse could explain it.
However, what makes this performance remarkable is the fact that, some kilometers from the finish line, Millar (seemingly in consultation with his team leader in the follow car) starts freewheeling like I've never seen anybody - let alone the winner of the worlds TT - freewheel before

So much so that he lets himself be overtaken by Gonchar, whom he had previously overtaken, and who had started three minutes before him.

From the race report:

Millar is chasing Serguei Gontchar up the long second climb, but for a minute looked to be losing ground, perhaps indicating a problem. He's closing the gap once again (Gontchar started three minutes ahead) but will need to pace himself carefully to maintain his advantage on Peschel and Rogers.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/worlds03/?id=emtt

Start watching at 57:20-ish (watch it through to around 59:00-ish), to see Gonchar overtake a freewheeling Millar.

As far as I can tell from that footage, there is nothing there that indicates any kind of mechanical for Millar. Indeed he never changes bikes or wheels. More to the point: it's plain freewheeling like I've rarely seen anybody freewheel during a world's TT, let alone the guy who ends up winning it averaging more than 48.3 km/h. The body language, to me, suggests he's being told to take it easy because it's going to look too ridiculous.

Gonchar, by the way, had started 3 minutes ahead of Millar, with Nozal in between.

start list:
...
4 Serguei Gontchar (Ukraine) 14:46:30
3 Isidro Nozal Vega (Spain) 14:48:00
2 David Millar (Great Britain) 14:49:30
1 Michael Rich (Germany) 14:51:00

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/worlds03/?id=emtt

Gonchar ends up finishing 21st, 3:11 minutes behind Millar.
So, Millar first overtakes Gonchar at some point, then lets himself (seemingly deliberately) drop back, and then overtakes Gonchar again.

Some will no doubt argue it can still all be explained by means of a rampant PED-program.
But have a look at Millar's face when he crosses the finishline and receives the congratulations, from ca. 1:03:15 onwards.
This is a world's TT. He's supposedly delivering a max effort here. Even with all the high-octane PEDs in the world, wouldn't we expect Millar to show at least some signs of exhaustion there?
However, there's absolutely nothing.

On a side, Millar's bike for the 2003 TT was designed by a certain Dimitris Katsanis, who'd been contracted by BC (Peter Keen) already in 2001 (2002 according to some sources) to design the GB bikes for track and road.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/from-paupers-to-kings-the-lottery-funded-revolution-93603
Katsanis has previously been mentioned here:
viewtopic.php?p=1860279#p1860279
and here:
viewtopic.php?p=2143200#p2143200

Thoughts please.

 

[sniper]

Here is a link to the Googlebook preview of Millar's biography "Racing Through The Dark".
https://books.google.pl/books?id=6SfVlv1HMMwC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=david+millar+harry+gibbings&source=bl&ots=m7HikLOCl1&sig=Pij4vTh8I6OFtew9k1rGFfS9oWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiaqsnDnJ_VAhVLsxQKHQv_DNQQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=david%20millar%20harry%20gibbings&f=false

I invite everybody to open it and type the name Harry Gibbings in the search engine on the left hand side of your screen.

 

[sniper]

indeed, Harry Gibbings, the CEO of Monaco-based Typhoon e-bike company.
Gibbings, who got tipped off by UCI's technical director Mark Barfield about an upcoming French police investigation into motors at the TdF.

 

[sniper]

Read those sections from Racing through the Dark carefully.

Then take a moment to let that sink in.

And then take your time to rethink Millar's 2003 time trial, Millar getting busted in Biarritz with Brailsford there, Millar making his comeback in 2006, Millar joining Garmin, Garmin and Millar doing very well in time trials, Wiggins breaking through, CVdV making a comeback with Floyd's Allen Lim on his side. Powertap hubs. Hesjedal.
Brailsford, Team Sky, Fran Millar. Monaco. Gibbings. Froome. Motoman. Bikeshops. CSC guys Yates, Johnny Weltz.
Boardman, Dimitris Katsanis, Secret Squirrels. Cookson. Barfield.
Many Olympic medals. 5 TdFs. Big big money.
Magic wheels.
New Age.
Clean cycling.

Yikes.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

So much so that he lets himself be overtaken by Gonchar, whom he had previously overtaken, and who had started three minutes before him.
...
Gonchar ends up finishing 21st, 3:11 minutes behind Millar.
So, Millar first overtakes Gonchar at some point, then lets himself (seemingly deliberately) drop back, and then overtakes Gonchar again.

Cancellara did that to Kreuziger in the 2009 Tour de Suisse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wnqc7r_5ZU
Motors past him at 2:20, then at 2:40 Kreuziger is ahead again.

 

[sniper]

Thanks, a very nice find indeed, Gung ho.

Could it have been an intermediate climb allowing Kreuziger to get back to, and overtake, Cancellara?

 

[samhocking]

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again. Riders generally are aiming for negative splits, but the effects of catching your minute man or knowing he is catching you either from a time check or the fact you can see he's closing down on you plays out with some odd scenarios in the longer TTs where it seems like you get stuck with a rider for a few km and don't think overtaking and then being overtaken back will ever end. Sometimes riders will pass each other multiple times, especially towards the end of the race in the last 1/3. Some riders actually switch to riding a positive split accidentally and so simply fade on the inclines in the second half of the course even though they finish with a much better time than their minute men either side of them.

The problem looking at youtube and even live tv is the camera is not showing what's actually happening because the director is cutting between various riders and cameras all the time. Rarely do you see any of this playing out on TV and so when you do see it, it can looks suspicious, but it's not that unusual really even between specialists at all levels.

 

[sniper]

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again.

I don't see anybody saying it's unusual.
You're fighting windmills again.

the camera is not showing what's actually happening

And isn't that the great thing about Millar's 2003 ride: the cameras actually do show us what's happening. He's freewheeling as if he's riding to church on a sunday morning.

 

[veganrob]

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again. Riders generally are aiming for negative splits, but the effects of catching your minute man or knowing he is catching you either from a time check or the fact you can see he's closing down on you plays out with some odd scenarios in the longer TTs where it seems like you get stuck with a rider for a few km and don't think overtaking and then being overtaken back will ever end. Sometimes riders will pass each other multiple times, especially towards the end of the race in the last 1/3. Some riders actually switch to riding a positive split accidentally and so simply fade on the inclines in the second half of the course even though they finish with a much better time than their minute men either side of them.

The problem looking at youtube and even live tv is the camera is not showing what's actually happening because the director is cutting between various riders and cameras all the time. Rarely do you see any of this playing out on TV and so when you do see it, it can looks suspicious, but it's not that unusual really even between specialists at all levels.

Really? Is that your experience racing TT's? Because that is not mine. If a rider passes his minute man, that guy is not coming back to re pass. Maybe you could show some examples of your scenario.

 

[StryderHells]

Re:

Thanks, a very nice find indeed, Gung ho.

Could it have been an intermediate climb allowing Kreuziger to get back to, and overtake, Cancellara?

It was a gentle undulating course but Kreuziger was fighting to stay on the podium ahead of Kloden so I'm guessing that's another reason why he kept coming back after Cancellara passed him.

 

[samhocking]

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again. Riders generally are aiming for negative splits, but the effects of catching your minute man or knowing he is catching you either from a time check or the fact you can see he's closing down on you plays out with some odd scenarios in the longer TTs where it seems like you get stuck with a rider for a few km and don't think overtaking and then being overtaken back will ever end. Sometimes riders will pass each other multiple times, especially towards the end of the race in the last 1/3. Some riders actually switch to riding a positive split accidentally and so simply fade on the inclines in the second half of the course even though they finish with a much better time than their minute men either side of them.

The problem looking at youtube and even live tv is the camera is not showing what's actually happening because the director is cutting between various riders and cameras all the time. Rarely do you see any of this playing out on TV and so when you do see it, it can looks suspicious, but it's not that unusual really even between specialists at all levels.

Really? Is that your experience racing TT's? Because that is not mine. If a rider passes his minute man, that guy is not coming back to re pass. Maybe you could show some examples of your scenario.

Ultimately you'll pass, but there's often a period of time where the man you just caught will use you as a carrot and on hilly TT courses if they're a better climber, you can pass them on the flat and then they pass you back on the climb. Ultimately, yes, you finish ahead of them unless you seriously overcooked yourself chasing them down in the first place. I remember in the National 33 Hilly we were caught on the climbs at end of first lap of 3. We thought we were on a bad day, but on the flat we would pass them again. This carried on over the middle lap until eventually they blew up and ended up loosing the minute they gained on us and a bit more. On paper, our open 25 times the start list was based on was within 30s and they finished around 30s down on us even though on paper they should be 30s up.
Obviously in club TTs this happens a lot. Less in open events and National TTs but definitely happens. You;re correct in that if you catch your minute man, unless you misjudged your effort, even if they pass you again, you will ultimately take it back by the finish line and of course finish with a faster time.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again.

I don't see anybody saying it's unusual.
You're fighting windmills again.

the camera is not showing what's actually happening

And isn't that the great thing about Millar's 2003 ride: the cameras actually do show us what's happening. He's freewheeling as if he's riding to church on a sunday morning.

But it doesn't explain you claiming Millar was slowing down due to a motor, when the split times prove he was speeding up. He looses 10m at bottom of climb and then finishes the climb way ahead of Honchar - that's my point. The fact another rider has gone past him doesn't mean anything, the split times are all that matters and there is not TV of millar leading upto your claim he's freewheeling. I don't see him freewheeling btw between 57:20 and 59:00. I see him being passed by Honchar and that is all.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Thanks, a very nice find indeed, Gung ho.

Could it have been an intermediate climb allowing Kreuziger to get back to, and overtake, Cancellara?

It was a gentle undulating course but Kreuziger was fighting to stay on the podium ahead of Kloden so I'm guessing that's another reason why he kept coming back after Cancellara passed him.

agreed.

Samhocking still missing the point. (shocker)
While it may or may not be "usual", the point is it's unusual enough to require some sort of explanation.
In the Cancellara case, it may have been as you say, with Kreuziger finding some extra watts as he was fighting for the podium. And there maybe other explanations like a mechanical or a intermediate climb or whatever.
In the Millar 2003 case, it was none of the above. Rather, as the cams showed us, it was a case of deliberate freewheeling/coasting/cruising. Riding to church on a Sunday morning. And still taking 1:25 out of Rogers.

 

[samhocking]

By the top of the climb Millar has taken back the 10s and put in another 10s to Honchar. So millar climbed 20s faster than Honchar. None of this is shown as the live tv is showing finishing riders during this time. All we see is Millar & Honchar at the bottom with Honchar 10s ahead of Millar starting the climb. Millar knows he's well up already and looks to simply be pacing himself up the last climb if he finished the climb ahead of Honchar.

 

[samhocking]

Live video couple hundred metres from foot of last climb (Honchar is about to catch Millar just before the climb begins)

Millar: 56:45
Honchar: 56:49

Honchar passes Millar on climb at 57:31

Live video time just after end of climb on the 90 left hander where static TV camera is.

Millar: 1:01:31
Honchar: 1:01:44 (finished climb 13s behind Millar who overtook him again nearer the top of the climb, but not shown on live TV)

Video time at finish line
Millar: 1:03:25
Honchar: 1:03:36 (gained 4s on Millar down the descent)

Clearly Millar is not scrubbing off speed as you originally claim.

 

[sniper]

Relevant post here:
viewtopic.php?p=2156776#p2156776
where everybody except Samhocking can see Millar freewheeling at the times indicated therein.

Time to move on.

Interesting link here:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/david-millar-why-i-made-time-trial-my-go-to-event-46772/
Millar still lying like Biarritz never happened:

“Also, at the time I turned pro in ’97, doping was prevalent, and I was made to think that all the big 200km races would be impossible to win clean. But in a time trial of 10, 15 or 20km, I could beat guys on drugs. And so it became my go-to event.”

And this:

"with time trialling, the more you do it, the more you start to kind of enjoy the challenge of teetering on your redline.”

I didn't see you teeter any kind of red line there in 2003, Dave. Yet is was arguably your best and fastest time trial ever.

 

[veganrob]

There's nothing unusual about passing a rider, then him passing you again. Riders generally are aiming for negative splits, but the effects of catching your minute man or knowing he is catching you either from a time check or the fact you can see he's closing down on you plays out with some odd scenarios in the longer TTs where it seems like you get stuck with a rider for a few km and don't think overtaking and then being overtaken back will ever end. Sometimes riders will pass each other multiple times, especially towards the end of the race in the last 1/3. Some riders actually switch to riding a positive split accidentally and so simply fade on the inclines in the second half of the course even though they finish with a much better time than their minute men either side of them.

The problem looking at youtube and even live tv is the camera is not showing what's actually happening because the director is cutting between various riders and cameras all the time. Rarely do you see any of this playing out on TV and so when you do see it, it can looks suspicious, but it's not that unusual really even between specialists at all levels.

Really? Is that your experience racing TT's? Because that is not mine. If a rider passes his minute man, that guy is not coming back to re pass. Maybe you could show some examples of your scenario.

Ultimately you'll pass, but there's often a period of time where the man you just caught will use you as a carrot and on hilly TT courses if they're a better climber, you can pass them on the flat and then they pass you back on the climb. Ultimately, yes, you finish ahead of them unless you seriously overcooked yourself chasing them down in the first place. I remember in the National 33 Hilly we were caught on the climbs at end of first lap of 3. We thought we were on a bad day, but on the flat we would pass them again. This carried on over the middle lap until eventually they blew up and ended up loosing the minute they gained on us and a bit more. On paper, our open 25 times the start list was based on was within 30s and they finished around 30s down on us even though on paper they should be 30s up.
Obviously in club TTs this happens a lot. Less in open events and National TTs but definitely happens. You;re correct in that if you catch your minute man, unless you misjudged your effort, even if they pass you again, you will ultimately take it back by the finish line and of course finish with a faster time.

We? This discussion is about ITT and the Millar race does not resemble what you are talking about at all.

 

[nayr497]

Amazing little tidbit from Cycling News just now during Vuelta coverage.

The Vuelta's last visit to Cuenca came in 2006, when David Millar, riding in the colours of Saunier Duval, beat Fabian Cancellara in a time trial to claim his first victory since returning from a two-year doping ban. "I love my sport and I want everyone to know that you can win the biggest races on bread and water,” Millar said. Alexandre Vinokourov finished third in that stage en route to final overall victory, a year before he tested positive for blood doping at the Tour de France.

Oh boy.