- May 9, 2009
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JimmyFingers said:As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.
But you are blessed if you never did it in the first place.
JimmyFingers said:As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.
JimmyFingers said:Not quite sure why Millar gets the antipathy he does, perhaps its the Sky connection. Yes the stuff he said about Landis was stupid but also a few years ago. I'm not sure what the clinic wants from riders these days because he is very vocal about his anti-doping. Armstrong called him St David when he came out of retirement, as he had changed his views so drastically.
As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.
JimmyFingers said:Not quite sure why Millar gets the antipathy he does, perhaps its the Sky connection. Yes the stuff he said about Landis was stupid but also a few years ago. I'm not sure what the clinic wants from riders these days because he is very vocal about his anti-doping. Armstrong called him St David when he came out of retirement, as he had changed his views so drastically.
As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.
Mrs John Murphy said:Not really.
Simple question:
What concrete actions has Millar taken to prevent doping in the peloton and/or to encourage riders to break omerta and to blow the whistle on doping practices?
What has Millar done for anti-doping other than to promote himself as 'anti-doping' David Millar (tm)?
Mrs John Murphy said:Millar has always been first and foremost about promoting David Millar. He has very carefully constructed a media persona for himself. This is not new - Millar was doing it when he first came onto the scene in the late 1990s. He had a column in one of the UK cycling monthlies - in which he would talk about him and Bobby J (Julich).
The question that needs to be asked of Millar which the media never asks is: 'What have you actually done to further the cause of anti-doping?'
For example - did Millar name his suppliers?
Did Millar talk to WADA etc about doping techniques and how riders avoided testing positive?
Did Millar discuss with WADA etc doping at Saunier Duval when he was there?
How has Millar supported and encouraged whistleblowing from riders within the peloton?
Millar can not be trusted and for him to be in any position of power for cycling would result in a return to the bad old days. Millar should not be let anywhere near any positions of power and influence.
trailrunner said:But you are blessed if you never did it in the first place.
pmcg76 said:(...)
I have no idea what Millar does to support or encourage whistle blower's but I would imagine it would occur in privacy anyway so we have no clue what exactly he does either way (...)
pmcg76 said:See, here is the thing. People like you constantly slate Millar and refuse to read his book because he is a doper/tool or whatever.
Then you go around making claims about things Millar never supposedly done even though many of these things are explained in detail in his book.
Millar named his suppliers and even the periods when he took drugs.
He also mentions about talking to the authorities about the going's-on at Saunier Duval(though I think it might have been to the UCI)
So Millar has done some of the things that you required of him yet you are still using it as a rod to beat him with.
I have no idea what Millar does to support or encourage whistle blower's but I would imagine it would occur in privacy anyway so we have no clue what exactly he does either way.
What whistle blowers have ever come forward during the midst of their racing career without being forced or coerced? I think Millar understands this better than most.
I will happily admit I find some of Millar's statements and stance's as ridiculous and stupid as the next person but I also don't see everything as purely black and white as some of the posters on here.
Millar may not be everyone's cup of tea but making stuff up to slate him is just as ridiculous as some of the things he says.
sniper said:in fact, we got a rather straightforward impression of what Millar thought about Landis when he came out of the closet.
Mrs John Murphy said:If anyone is making things up it is you. As per usual your post is more about how you hate people in the clinic rather than Millar or anything that he has or hasn't done.
Why don't you give us the direct quotes/page references, or links to articles where Millar does the things I've suggested he doesn't do. It's not that hard, who knows, maybe you might actually convince people that Millar isn't as bad as people think he is.
If you want people to be more open minded about Millar why don't you try providing some evidence for the questions posed to him rather than attacking the clinic like an irate drunk at kicking out time.
Whistleblowers who came clean in the middle of their careers? O'Reilly, Manzano, JJ, Landis etc could all have maintained omerta had they so chosen.
pmcg76 said:So the evidence is out there but you are unwilling to find it for yourself and expect others to do the dirty work. Maybe if you actually did a bit more research yourself, you would have a better idea of what you are talking about instead of spouting BS.
As for your heroic whistle-blowers, O'Reilly had quit, Manzano had quit, Landis was caught and wouldn't have said anything if RadioShack had given him a job. Only jaksche said anything and he didnt say much more that Millar admitted to. If these are your standard bearers for whistle-blowers they are not much better than Millar himself.
As for the Millar evidence, Massimiliano Lelli, Tuscany, Dr Jesus Losa, Navecerrada, Calpe, Madrid, EPO, Cortisone, Testosterone, 2001, 2002, 2003. All mentioned in Millar's book. Go do your own research.
roundabout said:Oh please. If you are going to play standards then your hero didn't name anyone who wasn't known by the people who caught him.
And I don't think he names Lelli in his book.
Mrs John Murphy said:With friends like you Millar doesn't need any enemies. Most people when they want to persuade people generally don't go around acting like an irate drunk.
It was a pretty simple question - give us the quotes and page references. You're obviously the expert on Millar.
I am not sure what your point about whistleblowers is - you said 'forced or coerced' originally - my point is that none of the people who blew the whistle were forced - all were still active (or at least could have been but for omerta).
Anyway we know what this really about the fact that you don't like posters in the clinic rather than anything to do with cycling.
pmcg76 said:Well, only an idiot would be unable to figure out it was Lelli. Sidekick of Casagrande living in Tuscany, duh.
Millar is far from my hero, I don't do hero's or whatever you want to call them.
This was a thread created for bashing Millar, based on some of his comments, fair game.
However when it changes from that to people making things up or ignoring available information in a further effort to bash someone, I don't see anything wrong with correcting them when they are wrong.
Then when a direct question is asked about active riders who were whistle-blowers the best response is a soigneur, two riders who were team-less and a guy who was implicated in Puerto. Jeez so many amazing whistle-blowers there. How are any of them much better than Millar?
Anyone who tries to add balance is automatically labelled a fanboy or clinic hater. If I wish to bash someone I at least try to make sure I have as much evidence as possible before spouting off.
roundabout said:Balance? Is your idea of balance talking up Millar while belittling what other people have done?
And try to follow your own advice, ok?
pmcg76 said:Where have I ever talked up Millar or belittled the others?
As for your heroic whistle-blowers, O'Reilly had quit, Manzano had quit, Landis was caught and wouldn't have said anything if RadioShack had given him a job. Only jaksche said anything and he didnt say much more that Millar admitted to. If these are your standard bearers for whistle-blowers they are not much better than Millar himself.
roundabout said:Oh and another thing. Ever wondered why Millar didn't get his ban reduced?
Probably not, judging by your attempts at "balancing" the discussion.
pmcg76 said:Well, only an idiot would be unable to figure out it was Lelli. Sidekick of Casagrande living in Tuscany, duh.
Millar is far from my hero, I don't do hero's or whatever you want to call them.
This was a thread created for bashing Millar, based on some of his comments, fair game.
However when it changes from that to people making things up or ignoring available information in a further effort to bash someone, I don't see anything wrong with correcting them when they are wrong.
Then when a direct question is asked about active riders who were whistle-blowers the best response is a soigneur, two riders who were team-less and a guy who was implicated in Puerto. Jeez so many amazing whistle-blowers there. How are any of them much better than Millar?
Anyone who tries to add balance is automatically labelled a fanboy or clinic hater. If I wish to bash someone I at least try to make sure I have as much evidence as possible before spouting off.
pmcg76 said:This is a real simple question. In his book did Millar name his suppliers and accomplices in doping at Cofidis. I am aware that Lelli was not named directly but as I said only an idiot couldnt figure it out.
roundabout said:I don't give a flying **** what he wrote in his book years after the Cofidis affair happened.
I am talking about his level of cooperation with the authorities when it was his turn to be arrested by the police.
It may be a simple question, but here you are trying to steer discussion back to his ****ing book.
pmcg76 said:Because that is what it is about, another poster claimed Millar never publically revealed his sources for EPO or his accomplices or never ratted on Saunier Duval to any authority.
This is in fact incorrect as he did and that is what I pointed out.
I also asked the same poster to name active pros who became whistle blowers. He named O'Reilly who was a soigneur, Landis and Manzano who were both unemployed at the time. None of these guys were riding in the pro bunch at the time of their confession's. I wasn't belittling them, merely pointing out those facts.