A Dave Millar thread

[trailrunner]

As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.

But you are blessed if you never did it in the first place.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not quite sure why Millar gets the antipathy he does, perhaps its the Sky connection. Yes the stuff he said about Landis was stupid but also a few years ago. I'm not sure what the clinic wants from riders these days because he is very vocal about his anti-doping. Armstrong called him St David when he came out of retirement, as he had changed his views so drastically.

As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.

Not really.

Simple question:

What concrete actions has Millar taken to prevent doping in the peloton and/or to encourage riders to break omerta and to blow the whistle on doping practices?

What has Millar done for anti-doping other than to promote himself as 'anti-doping' David Millar (tm)?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Not quite sure why Millar gets the antipathy he does, perhaps its the Sky connection. Yes the stuff he said about Landis was stupid but also a few years ago. I'm not sure what the clinic wants from riders these days because he is very vocal about his anti-doping. Armstrong called him St David when he came out of retirement, as he had changed his views so drastically.

As I have said before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the clinic's eyes.

Yes, everything is all about the sky hate. hateration.

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

Not really.

Simple question:

What concrete actions has Millar taken to prevent doping in the peloton and/or to encourage riders to break omerta and to blow the whistle on doping practices?

What has Millar done for anti-doping other than to promote himself as 'anti-doping' David Millar (tm)?

Its a very good question but for me the millar issue is not quite so black and white. Could he do more? Undoubtedly he could have said more at the time of his arrest and he could do more now, but you dont single handedly change a culture overnight. I think that by talking about his history and encouraging others to ride clean he is individually only having an impact at the margins but as one of an increasing number of clean advocates the cumulative effect can be more significant.

 

[pmcg76]

Millar has always been first and foremost about promoting David Millar. He has very carefully constructed a media persona for himself. This is not new - Millar was doing it when he first came onto the scene in the late 1990s. He had a column in one of the UK cycling monthlies - in which he would talk about him and Bobby J (Julich).

The question that needs to be asked of Millar which the media never asks is: 'What have you actually done to further the cause of anti-doping?'

For example - did Millar name his suppliers?

Did Millar talk to WADA etc about doping techniques and how riders avoided testing positive?

Did Millar discuss with WADA etc doping at Saunier Duval when he was there?

How has Millar supported and encouraged whistleblowing from riders within the peloton?

Millar can not be trusted and for him to be in any position of power for cycling would result in a return to the bad old days. Millar should not be let anywhere near any positions of power and influence.

See, here is the thing. People like you constantly slate Millar and refuse to read his book because he is a doper/tool or whatever.

Then you go around making claims about things Millar never supposedly done even though many of these things are explained in detail in his book.

Millar named his suppliers and even the periods when he took drugs.

He also mentions about talking to the authorities about the going's-on at Saunier Duval(though I think it might have been to the UCI)

So Millar has done some of the things that you required of him yet you are still using it as a rod to beat him with.

I have no idea what Millar does to support or encourage whistle blower's but I would imagine it would occur in privacy anyway so we have no clue what exactly he does either way.

What whistle blowers have ever come forward during the midst of their racing career without being forced or coerced? I think Millar understands this better than most.

I will happily admit I find some of Millar's statements and stance's as ridiculous and stupid as the next person but I also don't see everything as purely black and white as some of the posters on here.

Millar may not be everyone's cup of tea but making stuff up to slate him is just as ridiculous as some of the things he says.

 

[del1962]

But you are blessed if you never did it in the first place.

But you could still have never done it in the first place and be accused in the clinic

 

[sniper]

(...)
I have no idea what Millar does to support or encourage whistle blower's but I would imagine it would occur in privacy anyway so we have no clue what exactly he does either way (...)

in fact, we got a rather straightforward impression of what Millar thought about Landis when he came out of the closet.

 

[purcell]

Millar is a sanctimonious *** who is re-writing his view of history in his own mind, daily.

He is counting on the people to be gullible, the same as Lance did, and swallow whatever crap he wants to peddle.

At the point in time that he apologizes to ALL of the people that he has slandered and lied to then he MIGHT be in a position to talk about anything.

Until then, creep.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

See, here is the thing. People like you constantly slate Millar and refuse to read his book because he is a doper/tool or whatever.

Then you go around making claims about things Millar never supposedly done even though many of these things are explained in detail in his book.

Millar named his suppliers and even the periods when he took drugs.

He also mentions about talking to the authorities about the going's-on at Saunier Duval(though I think it might have been to the UCI)

So Millar has done some of the things that you required of him yet you are still using it as a rod to beat him with.

I have no idea what Millar does to support or encourage whistle blower's but I would imagine it would occur in privacy anyway so we have no clue what exactly he does either way.

What whistle blowers have ever come forward during the midst of their racing career without being forced or coerced? I think Millar understands this better than most.

I will happily admit I find some of Millar's statements and stance's as ridiculous and stupid as the next person but I also don't see everything as purely black and white as some of the posters on here.

Millar may not be everyone's cup of tea but making stuff up to slate him is just as ridiculous as some of the things he says.

If anyone is making things up it is you. As per usual your post is more about how you hate people in the clinic rather than Millar or anything that he has or hasn't done.

Why don't you give us the direct quotes/page references, or links to articles where Millar does the things I've suggested he doesn't do. It's not that hard, who knows, maybe you might actually convince people that Millar isn't as bad as people think he is. The reality is that you won't - not because you can or can't but because it would be a complete head**** for you to actually discuss the issue rather than the clinic and posters in the clinic.

Whistleblowers who came clean in the middle of their careers? O'Reilly, Manzano, JJ, Landis etc could all have maintained omerta had they so chosen.

 

[pmcg76]

in fact, we got a rather straightforward impression of what Millar thought about Landis when he came out of the closet.

As I said I don't agree with all Millar's comments but likewise I don't ignore thing's he has done in an effort to belittle him.

Well the thing about the whole Rabo episode is they stuck with the sport through Festina, Puerto and then the whole mess they were directly implicated in Rasmussen, Humaplasma and now they want to throw in the towel!!! Oh, lets stick with the sport during it's dirtiest period but just when there is a possibility of change for the better they bail. Personally I find that really strange as well and I can understand Millar's frustration on that one.

 

[pmcg76]

If anyone is making things up it is you. As per usual your post is more about how you hate people in the clinic rather than Millar or anything that he has or hasn't done.

Why don't you give us the direct quotes/page references, or links to articles where Millar does the things I've suggested he doesn't do. It's not that hard, who knows, maybe you might actually convince people that Millar isn't as bad as people think he is.

If you want people to be more open minded about Millar why don't you try providing some evidence for the questions posed to him rather than attacking the clinic like an irate drunk at kicking out time.

Whistleblowers who came clean in the middle of their careers? O'Reilly, Manzano, JJ, Landis etc could all have maintained omerta had they so chosen.

So the evidence is out there but you are unwilling to find it for yourself and expect others to do the dirty work. Maybe if you actually did a bit more research yourself, you would have a better idea of what you are talking about instead of spouting BS.

As for your heroic whistle-blowers, O'Reilly had quit, Manzano had quit, Landis was caught and wouldn't have said anything if RadioShack had given him a job. Only jaksche said anything and he didnt say much more that Millar admitted to. If these are your standard bearers for whistle-blowers they are not much better than Millar himself.

As for the Millar evidence, Massimiliano Lelli, Tuscany, Dr Jesus Losa, Navecerrada, Calpe, Madrid, EPO, Cortisone, Testosterone, 2001, 2002, 2003. All mentioned in Millar's book. Go do your own research.

 

[roundabout]

Oh please. If you are going to play standards then your hero didn't name anyone who wasn't known by the people who caught him.

And I don't think he names Lelli in his book.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

So the evidence is out there but you are unwilling to find it for yourself and expect others to do the dirty work. Maybe if you actually did a bit more research yourself, you would have a better idea of what you are talking about instead of spouting BS.

As for your heroic whistle-blowers, O'Reilly had quit, Manzano had quit, Landis was caught and wouldn't have said anything if RadioShack had given him a job. Only jaksche said anything and he didnt say much more that Millar admitted to. If these are your standard bearers for whistle-blowers they are not much better than Millar himself.

As for the Millar evidence, Massimiliano Lelli, Tuscany, Dr Jesus Losa, Navecerrada, Calpe, Madrid, EPO, Cortisone, Testosterone, 2001, 2002, 2003. All mentioned in Millar's book. Go do your own research.

With friends like you Millar doesn't need any enemies. Most people when they want to persuade people generally don't go around acting like an irate drunk.

It was a pretty simple question - give us the quotes and page references. You're obviously the expert on Millar.

I am not sure what your point about whistleblowers is - you said 'forced or coerced' originally - my point is that none of the people who blew the whistle were forced - all were still active (or at least could have been but for omerta).

Anyway we know what this really about the fact that you don't like posters in the clinic rather than anything to do with cycling.

 

[pmcg76]

Oh please. If you are going to play standards then your hero didn't name anyone who wasn't known by the people who caught him.

And I don't think he names Lelli in his book.

Well, only an idiot would be unable to figure out it was Lelli. Sidekick of Casagrande living in Tuscany, duh.

Millar is far from my hero, I don't do hero's or whatever you want to call them.

This was a thread created for bashing Millar, based on some of his comments, fair game.

However when it changes from that to people making things up or ignoring available information in a further effort to bash someone, I don't see anything wrong with correcting them when they are wrong.

Then when a direct question is asked about active riders who were whistle-blowers the best response is a soigneur, two riders who were team-less and a guy who was implicated in Puerto. Jeez so many amazing whistle-blowers there. How are any of them much better than Millar?

Anyone who tries to add balance is automatically labelled a fanboy or clinic hater. If I wish to bash someone I at least try to make sure I have as much evidence as possible before spouting off.

 

[pmcg76]

With friends like you Millar doesn't need any enemies. Most people when they want to persuade people generally don't go around acting like an irate drunk.

It was a pretty simple question - give us the quotes and page references. You're obviously the expert on Millar.

I am not sure what your point about whistleblowers is - you said 'forced or coerced' originally - my point is that none of the people who blew the whistle were forced - all were still active (or at least could have been but for omerta).

Anyway we know what this really about the fact that you don't like posters in the clinic rather than anything to do with cycling.

Yet you seem to specialise in it.

 

[roundabout]

Well, only an idiot would be unable to figure out it was Lelli. Sidekick of Casagrande living in Tuscany, duh.

Millar is far from my hero, I don't do hero's or whatever you want to call them.

This was a thread created for bashing Millar, based on some of his comments, fair game.

However when it changes from that to people making things up or ignoring available information in a further effort to bash someone, I don't see anything wrong with correcting them when they are wrong.

Then when a direct question is asked about active riders who were whistle-blowers the best response is a soigneur, two riders who were team-less and a guy who was implicated in Puerto. Jeez so many amazing whistle-blowers there. How are any of them much better than Millar?

Anyone who tries to add balance is automatically labelled a fanboy or clinic hater. If I wish to bash someone I at least try to make sure I have as much evidence as possible before spouting off.

Balance? Is your idea of balance talking up Millar while belittling what other people have done?

And try to follow your own advice, ok?

And I see that you didn't address my first sentence. Says it all about making things up.

 

[pmcg76]

Balance? Is your idea of balance talking up Millar while belittling what other people have done?

And try to follow your own advice, ok?

Where have I ever talked up Millar or belittled the others?

 

[roundabout]

Oh and another thing. Ever wondered why Millar didn't get his ban reduced?

Probably not, judging by your attempts at "balancing" the discussion.

 

[roundabout]

Where have I ever talked up Millar or belittled the others?

Well, I wouldn't have joined this discussion had you not posted this

As for your heroic whistle-blowers, O'Reilly had quit, Manzano had quit, Landis was caught and wouldn't have said anything if RadioShack had given him a job. Only jaksche said anything and he didnt say much more that Millar admitted to. If these are your standard bearers for whistle-blowers they are not much better than Millar himself.

Crap worthy of Millar himself.

 

[pmcg76]

Oh and another thing. Ever wondered why Millar didn't get his ban reduced?

Probably not, judging by your attempts at "balancing" the discussion.

This is a real simple question. In his book did Millar name his suppliers and accomplices in doping at Cofidis. I am aware that Lelli was not named directly but as I said only an idiot couldnt figure it out.

 

[manafana]

Well, only an idiot would be unable to figure out it was Lelli. Sidekick of Casagrande living in Tuscany, duh.

Millar is far from my hero, I don't do hero's or whatever you want to call them.

This was a thread created for bashing Millar, based on some of his comments, fair game.

However when it changes from that to people making things up or ignoring available information in a further effort to bash someone, I don't see anything wrong with correcting them when they are wrong.

Then when a direct question is asked about active riders who were whistle-blowers the best response is a soigneur, two riders who were team-less and a guy who was implicated in Puerto. Jeez so many amazing whistle-blowers there. How are any of them much better than Millar?

Anyone who tries to add balance is automatically labelled a fanboy or clinic hater. If I wish to bash someone I at least try to make sure I have as much evidence as possible before spouting off.

well put, for me millar said alot considering the risk to his career lets remember he was quiet young still and had many years ahead as has been said they didnt like people who talked, even had lance ****ed with him.

 

[roundabout]

This is a real simple question. In his book did Millar name his suppliers and accomplices in doping at Cofidis. I am aware that Lelli was not named directly but as I said only an idiot couldnt figure it out.

I don't give a flying **** what he wrote in his book years after the Cofidis affair happened.

I am talking about his level of cooperation with the authorities when it was his turn to be arrested by the police.

It may be a simple question, but here you are trying to steer discussion back to his ****ing book.

Here's an even simpler question. Why did Millar think he should get his ban reduced? Because he named people the police knew about (not to mention your average newspaper reader)? Or because he was cooperating?

 

[pmcg76]

I don't give a flying **** what he wrote in his book years after the Cofidis affair happened.

I am talking about his level of cooperation with the authorities when it was his turn to be arrested by the police.

It may be a simple question, but here you are trying to steer discussion back to his ****ing book.

Because that is what it is about, another poster claimed Millar never publically revealed his sources for EPO or his accomplices or never ratted on Saunier Duval to any authority.

This is in fact incorrect as he did and that is what I pointed out.

I also asked the same poster to name active pros who became whistle blowers. He named O'Reilly who was a soigneur, Landis and Manzano who were both unemployed at the time. None of these guys were riding in the pro bunch at the time of their confession's. I wasn't belittling them, merely pointing out those facts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

autobiography: press release guaranteed to make you some money.

please, stop referencing it as a strictly factual account. cf leipheimer affidavit with perjury penalty yet he stopped doping in 2007......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Because that is what it is about, another poster claimed Millar never publically revealed his sources for EPO or his accomplices or never ratted on Saunier Duval to any authority.

This is in fact incorrect as he did and that is what I pointed out.

I also asked the same poster to name active pros who became whistle blowers. He named O'Reilly who was a soigneur, Landis and Manzano who were both unemployed at the time. None of these guys were riding in the pro bunch at the time of their confession's. I wasn't belittling them, merely pointing out those facts.

bassons, simeoni.