A question about doping in the UK

[BroDeal]

Only problem with that, though, is the acronym. Wiggo and Brailsford already got a lock on D.I.D.



Uh-oh.

But when the sham is finally revealed, the fans can say, "We were diddled."

 

[Granville57]

But when the sham is finally revealed, the fans can say, "We were diddled."

Thus far, they've been "Wiggled."

To insinuate or extricate oneself by sly or subtle means
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wiggled

 

[BroDeal]

Thus far, they've been "Wiggled."

Wiggle's laughable performance has left me giggled.

 

[nevada]

It's interesting when you look at some of the fairly high profile names that forged careers in Europe through this period but haven't been linked to anything. I really find it hard to believe that they didn't use anything.

 

[ultimobici]

I noticed you carefully left Australia's count off that list.

I also think if you're going to brag about indoor tracks you should explain they are required in the UK, where the weather is toilet-worthy, vs France, Italy and the USA where they have a real summer.

Australia wasn't mentioned because their medal haul isn't low, plain & simple.

As of the weather in France v UK, in summer there may be a slightly smaller need for covered facilities in France. However when you have no heat in winter in Paris is can't be that easy to motivate yourself to train can it?

 

[peterst6906]

Australia wasn't mentioned because their medal haul isn't low, plain & simple.

As of the weather in France v UK, in summer there may be a slightly smaller need for covered facilities in France. However when you have no heat in winter in Paris is can't be that easy to motivate yourself to train can it?

Paris has indoor facilities. The number of indoor tracks is not the reason for UK being a track cycling powerhouse.

How many indoor tracks did Chris Hoy have access to on a regular basis as a junior?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I noticed you carefully left Australia's count off that list.

I also think if you're going to brag about indoor tracks you should explain they are required in the UK, where the weather is toilet-worthy, vs France, Italy and the USA where they have a real summer.

Toilet-worthy? Really? You really need to stop showing your prejudice, this coming after you referred to Wiggins as an 'abusive Pom'. Really doesn't do much for your reputation as a poster.

Nor does the fact you seem ignorant of the fact that in Europe track racing is winter sport, so indoor velodromes are very significant because in the 'real' summers Italy and France have, their riders aren't rolling around the velodrome but are on the road. It's how it works here: unlike Australia we actually have seasons.

And Australia wasn't mentioned because clearly you have both facilities and a successful track programme. And programme, since we're on the subject.

I think the point that was being made was the facilities and resources available to British Cycling. It has been discussed many times here the sheer investment British sport has made in both the road programme and the track one and we are seeing the results of that.

That lazy accusation is we are doping, and some riders may be, but you can not deny the British have put in place an infrastructure to develop talent: scouts going around schools finding promising youngsters, financial resources to sponsor them from a young age and develop that talent, modern, world class facilities like our indoor velodromes for that talent to train on, and an argument can be made that that infrastructure currently is the best in the world. The medal table certainly bares that out.

Call it financial doping if you like, but it's there, it exists and cheap doping accusations are cancelled out by the fact you can level them at any country's track team. Especially Australia's, given the recent revelations there.

 

[King Boonen]

Paris has indoor facilities. The number of indoor tracks is not the reason for UK being a track cycling powerhouse.

How many indoor tracks did Chris Hoy have access to on a regular basis as a junior?

Seems to be a lot of confusion in this about tracks. I'm certainly not very knowledgeable about it but I'm guessing ultimobici is remembering an inrng article but not quoting it fully.

France does not have a comparable facility to the UK. The Velodrome in Manchester is heated, and the Paris on isn't (ref: http://inrng.com/2012/08/british-cycling-funding/ ), Roubaix may be (?) but that can obviously have had little effect effect in the run up to the Olympics so discounting it from this discussion is fair.

The UK now has three of these facilities (Manchester, London and Glasgow) and another in Wales but I'm unsure of its standard.

There are of course many reasons. Funding, both lottery and the tie in with Sky, the focus on track cycling rather than road cycling in the UK etc. but it seems like most people in this thread are just trying to pick apart peoples statements rather than actually have a discussion.

To believe that British Cycling is definitely clean is naive, but they have poured a lot of funding and development into it which can account for some of the improvement.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Paris has indoor facilities. The number of indoor tracks is not the reason for UK being a track cycling powerhouse.

How many indoor tracks did Chris Hoy have access to on a regular basis as a junior?

He actually came from BMX racing originally, ranked very highly before switching to the track in 1994. He raced for the City of Edinburgh Racing Club, who I believe have an outdoor velodrome, but I'm guessing he was able to use the Manchester Velodrome from an early stage, given it was built in 1994.

So what's your point?

 

[JimmyFingers]

The UK now has three of these facilities (Manchester, London and Glasgow) and another in Wales but I'm unsure of its standard.

The Newport Velodrome I believe is of a high standard. It's where the British track team did much of their training ahead of the London Olympics

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The Newport Velodrome I believe is of a high standard.

It's also where Rebecca James got talent-spotted, so for this alone, it is worth every penny!

I think one of the main reasons for the GB success on the track is that all talented juniors go through the system, rather than racing all the time on the road, which is the norm in "traditional" cycling nations.

In addition, since 2005, when London won the bid to host the 2012 OGs, there has been a phenomenal amount of cash thrown at the track cycling programme, so the GB team has access to more coaches per head, more analysis, better conventional medical back-up, better nutritional info, better bikes etc. And of course, rounder wheels!

 

[bobbins]

You mean like David Millar, of course no on in the UK knows of his case, kept quiet at pain of death for anyone in her majesties realm

EDIT : Had to color name out, in case of punishment

Did UK Sport / BC testing catch him? Nope.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Did UK Sport / BC testing catch him? Nope.

So what? Make a point

 

[peterst6906]

He actually came from BMX racing originally, ranked very highly before switching to the track in 1994. He raced for the City of Edinburgh Racing Club, who I believe have an outdoor velodrome, but I'm guessing he was able to use the Manchester Velodrome from an early stage, given it was built in 1994.

So what's your point?

My point is that access to indoor tracks is not the reason for British success.There are many other reasons for success and access to any track, combined with good coaching, development and competition is more relevant.

This discussion started out of wrong numbers of indoor tracks and trying to attribute their presence as the reason for success.

Success breeds success. The number of indoor tracks in the UK has increased, because the program was already successful. There presence will no doubt help keep the UK at the top, but they aren't the reason for it.

From the outside, it's a good program with good management, good coaching staff, good sport scientists and nutritionists.

It's a program to envy.

Outside of some questions about the integrity/motive of some of the management team, there is no hint of doping evidence amongst current track stars in the UK. It may exist, but the program would be successful even in it's absence. If it doesn't exist, then I wouldn't see it as a team wide issue, but only an individual scale, acting outside the program.

 

[bobbins]

So what? Make a point

The point is that it goes on at all levels but only one or two small fish are caught. It isn't good for the sport to have positive tests but one involving a high profile rider is far worse than one involving small fry.

 

[JimmyFingers]

My point is that access to indoor tracks is not the reason for British success.There are many other reasons for success and access to any track, combined with good coaching, development and competition is more relevant.

This discussion started out of wrong numbers of indoor tracks and trying to attribute their presence as the reason for success.

Success breeds success. The number of indoor tracks in the UK has increased, because the program was already successful. There presence will no doubt help keep the UK at the top, but they aren't the reason for it.

From the outside, it's a good program with good management, good coaching staff, good sport scientists and nutritionists.

It's a program to envy.

Outside of some questions about the integrity/motive of some of the management team, there is no hint of doping evidence amongst current track stars in the UK. It may exist, but the program would be successful even in it's absence. If it doesn't exist, then I wouldn't see it as a team wide issue, but only an individual scale, acting outside the program.

Bang on, excellent post, objective and well reasoned

 

[peterst6906]

Bang on, excellent post, objective and well reasoned

Now you should go back and read my earlier posts, where it was the same thing, just in different words.

No need to question whether I had a point as I wasn't challenging British honour.

The British program is the envy of other countries at the moment, including both the German and Australian programs.

I think some of the initiatives in both Australia and Germany (who has 7 indoor tracks) will have them challenging the UK in the next 5 years (maybe not for Rio, but beyond that the UK position will be under significant threat), but that's because as top dog, the UK is the main target to beat at the moment.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The point is that it goes on at all levels but only one or two small fish are caught. It isn't good for the sport to have positive tests but one involving a high profile rider is far worse than one involving small fry.

I think there are a few elements going on here. Only the most naive or jingoistic will claim that an entire country's athletes are above doping. British transgressions have been named here, including Millar so yes, Brits dope. Indeed arguably the most famous British cyclist of all time was addicted to amphetamine and it certainly contributed to his death in 1967. More recently a prominent British cricketer was killed on some train tracks and has found to be a regular cocaine user and was high as a kite when he was killed.

That we are of some mysterious moral fibre above and beyond the rest of humanity clearly holds no water.

Equally so there is a concerted effort by certain posters here to paint British sport far blacker than any evidence demonstrates. Yes there have been notable athletes found to be using PEDs, but not on a scale to suggest it is endemic or certainly systematic throughout the British sporting structure. We have issues: all countries do, and there are certainly sports people willing to take shortcuts for a short-term gain. An objective assessment like the one Peters gives is a fairer gauge on where British sport is, rather than the ones comparing us to East Germany, which has happened here, although not in this thread.

 

[The Hitch]

It may exist, but the program would be successful even in it's absence. If it doesn't exist, then I wouldn't see it as a team wide issue, but only an individual scale, acting outside the program.

Why would track cycling be immune to the doping problem all other sports have had?

 

[peterst6906]

Why would track cycling be immune to the doping problem all other sports have had?

I don't think track cycling is necessarily immune from it. What is coming out about the Australian program in the 80's and 90's is pretty instructive as to the possibilities.

At this current time though, there isn't much evidence of doping in track cycling like there is in relation to the pro road teams.

Even in the absence of test positives from any countries, there would be some evidence. People talk, paper trails ultimately exist and these find ways to make themselves public.

No track cyclists seem to be implicated in any of the major investigations of current times (Puerto, Padua, USADA - track cycling is just about dead in the US though, Australian investigations).

Maybe it's optimism, but on the balance of available evidence I am comfortable to give the benefit of doubt in favour of track cycling.

In Australia I'm fairly heavily involved in track and even here now, there doesn't appear to be even a whisper of doping at the moment. Those whispers existed in the past. Prior to moving back home 6 months ago, I was in Europe for the previous 7 years and I didn't see anything in track there either that raised any flags.

So I wouldn't say track is immune, it just doesn't seem to be there on a broad scale on the basis of my experience and observations from other countries.

I am quite happy to admit that I could be naive though and totally wrong.

 

[horsinabout]

I don't think track cycling is necessarily immune from it. What is coming out about the Australian program in the 80's and 90's is pretty instructive as to the possibilities.

At this current time though, there isn't much evidence of doping in track cycling like there is in relation to the pro road teams.

Even in the absence of test positives from any countries, there would be some evidence. People talk, paper trails ultimately exist and these find ways to make themselves public.

No track cyclists seem to be implicated in any of the major investigations of current times (Puerto, Padua, USADA - track cycling is just about dead in the US though, Australian investigations).

Maybe it's optimism, but on the balance of available evidence I am comfortable to give the benefit of doubt in favour of track cycling.

In Australia I'm fairly heavily involved in track and even here now, there doesn't appear to be even a whisper of doping at the moment. Those whispers existed in the past. Prior to moving back home 6 months ago, I was in Europe for the previous 7 years and I didn't see anything in track there either that raised any flags.

So I wouldn't say track is immune, it just doesn't seem to be there on a broad scale on the basis of my experience and observations from other countries.

I am quite happy to admit that I could be naive though and totally wrong.

For ground level track in the UK, you are probably right....

For the step up to the elite program - to use your own words you are "naive and totally wrong"

 

[JimmyFingers]

For ground level track in the UK, you are probably right....

For the step up to the elite program - to use your own words you are "naive and totally wrong"

Are you involved in track racing, either in Europe or Australia, in anyway?

 

[King Boonen]

For ground level track in the UK, you are probably right....

For the step up to the elite program - to use your own words you are "naive and totally wrong"

Why? There is no evidence at all as far as I can see, and the same is true for most track programmes (in fact Bauge is the only high profile ban I can think of recently).

I know the general clinic view is to say everyone in every sport at the top level dopes but that is a statistically almost impossible. It also makes any discussion pointless if people just take that view and you might as well not bother responding to posts.

So please, if you think track cycling is as dirty as road cycling, provide some evidence. I'll even accept press articles, rumours and whispers, anything.

 

[oldcrank]

Yes strange old thing that...its called hypocracy.

Are you sure that is what it is called?

 

[skippy]

Just seen " Angus Porter of thr Prof.Cricket assoc."on Sky TV , banging on about taking Hair Samples for Drug testing purposes .

Does Cricket use the Bio Passport currently ? Do other Sports take , or propose to take Hair Samples for testing ?