A question about doping in the UK

[Wallace and Gromit]

When was that?

Back end of 1996: 28th (IP) and 29th September (TP) in the Manchester WCs.The new TP record was slower than CB, and it took a further 2 years for CB's time to be beaten by the TPers!

To be honest, it says most about how weak the TP squad was in those days.

 

[horsinabout]

Clutching at straws a little aren't we? You conveniently ignore that he has a family history of osteoporosis and was diagnosed with low testosterone levels to boot. Add in that he rode his entire career for a team noted for its lack of doping and it's an even bigger stretch.

Do tell about Meadowbank too?

Ummm, not the family history "Raison d'être". And low testosterone too, another causal effect if taking large amounts of corticoseriods I believe?

clutching at straws is my favourite pastime..

 

[peterst6906]

Secondly, where track sprinting is concerned, The City of Edinburgh would be another place to start.

Alright, since there's a slim possibility that this is on topic - why is Edinburgh a place to start in relation to doping in a the UK racing scene in the last decade?

What evidence do you have of doping in the track program associated with Edinburgh?

 

[xcleigh]

Ummm, not the family history "Raison d'être". And low testosterone too, another causal effect if taking large amounts of corticoseriods I believe?

clutching at straws is my favourite pastime..

One would presume lots of other pros from that era would be suffering the same condition. Do you know of any? We know he suffered from the condition because he was quite open about it. If it's a result of massive amounts of steroids I'd have though he might want to be rather hush hush about it.Why attract attention to oneself?

 

[ultimobici]

Back end of 1996: 28th (IP) and 29th September (TP) in the Manchester WCs.The new TP record was slower than CB, and it took a further 2 years for CB's time to be beaten by the TPers!

To be honest, it says most about how weak the TP squad was in those days.

It's more indicative of the level of the TP squad than Boardman doping. The British TP record was almost 12 seconds slower than the WR at the time.

To compare the two is a little unfair as Boardman was professionally supported and despite the Manchester Velodrome's existence the TP guys were not really funded in any way like they are today. That started with the WCPP a year later.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It's more indicative of the level of the TP squad than Boardman doping. The British TP record was almost 12 seconds slower than the WR at the time.

To compare the two is a little unfair as Boardman was professionally supported and despite the Manchester Velodrome's existence the TP guys were not really funded in any way like they are today. That started with the WCPP a year later.

I agree. I'm a huge fan of CB. That a single rider, even if he was Superman in the Superman position, could be faster than his national team's TP quartet is quite stunning.

 

[Zweindorf]

Boardman doping.

One of very few cyclists who you could put money on that didn't dope during their career. Finishing the Tour De France three times from eight starts. (crashed out of one). And jokingly proclaimed that he did not have enough testosterone in his body to finish the Tour.

 

[JimmyFingers]

nothing relevant to contribute that is on topic.

The MO is to make accusations backed by insinuations of insider knowledge but when pressed nothing is ever offered to back it.

We've seen it many times before.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Secondly, where track sprinting is concerned, The City of Edinburgh would be another place to start.

Angus? He was a popular guy at WCs in the early 90s...

 

[del1962]

The City of Edinburgh would be another place to start.

Sounds like you spent too much time trainspotting

 

[ferryman]

If the forum wants to get this thread back on topic, then a good place to start is with CB, as he retired because he had a bone condition that one medical reason for getting is the taking of large amounts of corticosteriods over an extended period. Not the only reason, but you could draw strong inferences.

Secondly, where track sprinting is concerned, The City of Edinburgh would be another place to start.

You have my interest as an Edinburgher. City of Edinburgh Racing Club has produced a good number of world class sprinters no doubt. I've spent many a happy hour at the Meadowbank track watching some of them. Care to expand though?

 

[bobbins]

Angus? He was a popular guy at WCs in the early 90s...

Didn't Angus look after Brian (Lance sacked me because I wouldn't dope) Smith.

 

[JimmyFingers]

[/B]
You have my interest as an Edinburgher. City of Edinburgh Racing Club has produced a good number of world class sprinters no doubt. I've spent many a happy hour at the Meadowbank track watching some of them. Care to expand though?

Details would be very welcome

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Details would be very welcome

I think there was fairly conclusive proof on the Chris Hoy thread i.e. He has big legs and won a lot.

If you can't put 2+2 together there is not a lot I can do to help you.
Not normal.
Clinic 12.

 

[SundayRider]

One of very few cyclists who you could put money on that didn't dope during their career. Finishing the Tour De France three times from eight starts. (crashed out of one). And jokingly proclaimed that he did not have enough testosterone in his body to finish the Tour.

Yet he had enough to break the hour record?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yet he had enough to break the hour record?

You do realise how long the 'Hour' record goes on for, right?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You do realise how long the 'Hour' record goes on for, right?

So did Indurain and Rominger.

 

[ultimobici]

So any rider attempting anything ridden by a questionable rider is automatically suspect? That renders all racing cyclists dopers by default!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So any rider attempting anything ridden by a questionable rider is automatically suspect? That renders all racing cyclists dopers by default!

No, but smashing Conconi/Ferrari riders is somehow a warning for normal thinking people.

 

[horsinabout]

[/B]
You have my interest as an Edinburgher. City of Edinburgh Racing Club has produced a good number of world class sprinters no doubt. I've spent many a happy hour at the Meadowbank track watching some of them. Care to expand though?

The example I gave of the men's 1997 record was achieved by a City of Edinburgh rider, namely Craig Maclean with his NR 200m record of 10.6. Soon after 1997 the WCPP was formed and the CofE riders including Hoy and Maclean formed the mainstay of sprinting for the WCPP and the National sprint team.

As I have already stated on this thread that I believe 1997 was a true amature era. Once the WCPP got underway, the 200m times began to tumble. And have kept on tumbeling until the present day.

The article interview by EA "if only I new then what I know now" implies that he should have been more dedicated or regimented in his training like the old East German's were.

Well I can tell you now just because 1997 was an amature era, the C of E sprinters were as commited and disciplined to their sprint training as any East German I have witnessed. Also dedicated were the TP quartet, as being mentioned here being slower than CB on his own over 4km pursuit.

So the idea that the start of an elite program suddenly kicks everyones lazy ar*e into gear and shows them how to train properly is a falsehood, and does not wash with me at all.

Now we are back to the hypothisis posited in my letter to Dave 'sir-lance-a-lot' Brailsford. How has BC improved the sprint times since 1997 by one whole second or a stagering, ten bike lengths. I used this example because it is a very objective improvement measure, and represents improvement in pure power or speed endurance or mechanical assistance or all three in combination.

Thank you for taking an interest.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

So the idea that the start of an elite program suddenly kicks everyones lazy ar*e into gear and shows them how to train properly is a falsehood, and does not wash with me at all.

Ed Alexander, as you will know if you've read the article, worked full time and fitted his training in round that. He also lived in a city 100 miles away from the nearest velodrome, which was an outdoor one.

I'm guessing that these two factors were highly significant in explaining why he didn't achieve the times that are commonplace nowadays. He did manage to finish 4th in the 1988 OGs though and his record of 10.7s for the flying 200 survived 10 years, so he was a class act.

You also have oddities like teenage girls achieving 200m times (low 11s range) that are several tenths faster than the senior women's record from the mid 90s and even faster than Queen Vic's first British record in 2002. So when do you think these teenage girls started doping then? Or maybe there are other factors for the increased performance levels in the last 15 years.

 

[bobbins]

There was talk of certain riders being on the EPO program back in 1995.

A separate thread on the CoE and track might be useful.

 

[peterst6906]

You also have oddities like teenage girls achieving 200m times (low 11s range) that are several tenths faster than the senior women's record from the mid 90s and even faster than Queen Vic's first British record in 2002. So when do you think these teenage girls started doping then? Or maybe there are other factors for the increased performance levels in the last 15 years.

+1. As discussed up thread also. If you look at the junior progression over the last 10 years, there is plenty of explanation to show why senior times have progressed also.

 

[ultimobici]

No, but smashing Conconi/Ferrari riders is somehow a warning for normal thinking people.

Fausto Coppi - Track Regular
Jacques Anquetil - Track Regular
Ercole Baldini - Track Regular
Roger Rivière - Track Regular
Roger Rivière- Track Regular
Ferdi Bracke - Track Regular
Ole Ritter - Track Regular
Eddy Merckx - Track Regular
Francesco Moser - Track Regular
Chris Boardman - Track Regular
Graeme Obree - Track Regular
Miguel Indurain - Track Novice
Tony Rominger - Track Novice

You see the pattern. Neither Rominger, nor Indurain had a track pedigree of any sort. I remember Rominger in particular being referred to as a novice.

 

[esafosfina]

The example I gave of the men's 1997 record was achieved by a City of Edinburgh rider, namely Craig Maclean with his NR 200m record of 10.6. Soon after 1997 the WCPP was formed and the CofE riders including Hoy and Maclean formed the mainstay of sprinting for the WCPP and the National sprint team.

As I have already stated on this thread that I believe 1997 was a true amature era. Once the WCPP got underway, the 200m times began to tumble. And have kept on tumbeling until the present day.

The article interview by EA "if only I new then what I know now" implies that he should have been more dedicated or regimented in his training like the old East German's were.

Well I can tell you now just because 1997 was an amature era, the C of E sprinters were as commited and disciplined to their sprint training as any East German I have witnessed. Also dedicated were the TP quartet, as being mentioned here being slower than CB on his own over 4km pursuit.

So the idea that the start of an elite program suddenly kicks everyones lazy ar*e into gear and shows them how to train properly is a falsehood, and does not wash with me at all.

Now we are back to the hypothisis posited in my letter to Dave 'sir-lance-a-lot' Brailsford. How has BC improved the sprint times since 1997 by one whole second or a stagering, ten bike lengths. I used this example because it is a very objective improvement measure, and represents improvement in pure power or speed endurance or mechanical assistance or all three in combination.

Thank you for taking an interest.

Can't comment first hand on 1997 times but we did lower the GB TP record to 4:05 something at the 98 Bordeaux Worlds... improved training regimes, better equipment, and a good combination of riders were key. By 2000 we were consistently riding times around the 4:00 mark. Just saying...