A Question About Indurain...

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1996 TdF

Netserk said:
JV has explicitly said that all who rode the '96 Tour were doped.
Could you find the exact source?
Thanks.
I looked at the list of participants, and i would agree that a clean racer in 1996 would have had to be both a heroe and a potential "clean TdF" winner to just be chosen by any of those teams.
That being said, I would bet there were a handful of heroes among them.
 
Jul 1, 2013
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Stunning you can compare a 1996 ride from Chris Boardman to a 2000 ride, claim the altered performance is 'consistent' with previous doping, and not bother to mention he was diagnosed with osteoporosis and had to retire young
 
Jul 8, 2009
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D-Queued said:
Okay, I'll bite. Else your post might be without an audience.

It was legitimate.*

And, yes of course, Indurain used both water and vitamin supplements in 1995.

Now, who are 'you' referring to when you say you?

Dave.

*Actually, I sincerely appreciate your analysis and think it is bang on. We have seen TT average speeds of 53 kph in some instances. The power required for this is astronomically higher than 43-45 kph. There have been some aerodynamic improvements, of course, but not enough to explain 10 kph improvements.
Just a little rhetorical rant on my part...no more, no less. If it pleases or not an audience, then so be it. I have equal suspicions about Luxembourg, Bergerac, Hautacam, and LaPlagne. Specifically 1994 and 1995...Indurain is a man without equal, regardless of the Gewiss-Ballan nuisance that caught him out in the former year [at the Giro]. Italian riders in particular, seemed to be heavily manipulated [Chiappucci] over that time period. I like Indurain...more than I ever did when he eclipsed Lemond. It does not however make my scepticism of him nebulous or insignificant.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Le breton said:
Glad you bring that up.
I have been keeping that topic up my sleeves for some time. Maybe next month, when I have a bit more more time I will come back to it, using average speeds rather than actual times as there were slight differences in the 1985, 1990 and 1995 courses.
See you next month :)

(Actually, I don't see all that as an endictment of Indurain, but of nearly the whole peloton)
Well how does an indictment of the entire peloton not cast suspicion on Indurain? I have average speeds posted along with times. The 1995 results have the average speed of each rider. I don't know. I see over 30 riders with a faster average speed than Lemond was able to accomplish in either 85 or 90. Auphelle - Auphelle is cited at 45.5 km, although it appears to be slightly longer for 1995. Still, Indurain is going ~5 kph faster than he did 5 years earlier. Massive difference when you consider the minimal difference that occurred between 85 and 90. The course for 1995 is cited at 46km...if less, then he broke 30 mph on the course that year.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/1002101-Tour-de-France-1995-Stage-20-ITT-Lac-de-Vassiviere

Whatever you got "up your sleeve" sounds like some preemptive pedantic exercise, that on its face, seems designed to put me in my place. If it is, then my own preemptive predisposition includes a simple prescription: don't bother?:p
 
vrusimov said:
Just a little rhetorical rant on my part...no more, no less. If it pleases or not an audience, then so be it. I have equal suspicions about Luxembourg, Bergerac, Hautacam, and LaPlagne. Specifically 1994 and 1995...Indurain is a man without equal, regardless of the Gewiss-Ballan nuisance that caught him out in the former year [at the Giro]. Italian riders in particular, seemed to be heavily manipulated [Chiappucci] over that time period. I like Indurain...more than I ever did when he eclipsed Lemond. It does not however make my scepticism of him nebulous or insignificant.
I got it.

It was a crazy time.

Bugno was an over-the-top doper who still couldn't keep it together mentally. Same with Cappuccino.

Indurain was an automaton. Mind blowing, even if you throw in drugs.

He was hard not to like. Even though he was scorching the field, he didn't put himself in your face.

508 watts for an hour we will probably never see again without gene doping. Drugs + genetics?

Dave.
 
Dec 24, 2012
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Considering the fact that Rominger was using Ferrari's marvellous training schedules already in 1993 (and who knows how much earlier), and he was doing this out in the open;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zjjFHRnHg (six minute mark. He's even seen sitting at a nice dinertable with the good doctor, sorting "stuff")

I cannot believe Indurain at the time wasn't using the same. We can argue whether he started way earlier -and I do believe he did- but Indurain knew full well what the services of Ferrari were made of, and here is his big opponent, sitting with Ferrari at breakfast. If Indurain didn't take countermeasures, he'd be;

1: a very honest man
2: a very naive man
3: a supernatural talent that doesnt even need dope
4: a combination of the above mentioned

If people want to believe either of these, be my guest, but even though Rominger was the rider that got me hooked on the sport when I was 9, I'm not willing to look to his rides through rose-tinted glasses (even though he won the Giro;) ), and just see him for the dope-user he is. It's a shame when you gradually lose the belief you had in your childhood heroes, but I prefer that rather than lying to myself. It's a good thing my dad didn't elaborate at the time why he thought results like Gewiss on the Mur de Huy were "not to be taken seriously", because I would have never stayed with the sport, or would have just spent my savings (it took me two years of saving to be able to buy my first racing bike) on G.I. Joe's. But if you're old enough to write on this forum I cannot believe people still want to defend a Conconi-visiting guy like Indurain as to be clean, or clean-ish. Don't get me wrong, it might sound cynical, or bitter, but it's not meant to. It's just the truth.
 
Dec 24, 2012
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Actually, if anybody still has some old Bicisport magazines in the attic from the years 1992-1995, Im absolutely sure they ran some good articles on Ferrari. Including comparing EPO to orange juice etcetera. If I remember correctly (and my Italian is not that good) they also had articles about Conconi and Indurain.
 
indurain on epo from 1992 onwards is not a subject of arguing. so pls people stop arguing for nothing

the only question is what was he on from 1989-1992. climbing speeds totally human possible but still he definitely geared up in that time. epo? somehow i don't believe it...
 
Apr 21, 2012
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jens_attacks said:
indurain on epo from 1992 onwards is not a subject of arguing. so pls people stop arguing for nothing

the only question is what was he on from 1989-1992. climbing speeds totally human possible but still he definitely geared up in that time. epo? somehow i don't believe it...
1991 : no doubt he was on EPO, first Alpe d'Huez ever under 40 mins (39:45)
1990 : very strong in Luz Ardiden and ITT, probably on EPO, IMO (as were Chiapucci, Bugno and the PDM)

The real question is 1989 : he had his first really good results at 25 (Paris-Nice, Crit international, TdF mountain TT + 1 mountain stage in Cauterets). If he was already on EPO in '89 he's the blattant exhibit of donkey turned to racehorse. If he wasn't we can say he was a bit talented.
(1989 : spain riders at Caja Rural confessed testing EPO, same year Rominger appears in Ferrari's file with HCT yo-yoing)
 
Gregga said:
1991 : no doubt he was on EPO, first Alpe d'Huez ever under 40 mins (39:45)
1990 : very strong in Luz Ardiden and ITT, probably on EPO, IMO (as were Chiapucci, Bugno and the PDM)

The real question is 1989 : he had his first really good results at 25 (Paris-Nice, Crit international, TdF mountain TT + 1 mountain stage in Cauterets). If he was already on EPO in '89 he's the blattant exhibit of donkey turned to racehorse. If he wasn't we can say he was a bit talented.
(1989 : spain riders at Caja Rural confessed testing EPO, same year Rominger appears in Ferrari's file with HCT yo-yoing)
again, it wasn't under 40 minutes but 40:27:) a bit different.
very hard indeed to say which year, probably we'll never know...i think 1990 rominger files were the one when his hematocrit rocketed??if those are legit, most likely yes italians stars and indurain were on it too. and rominger definitely supreme pioneer. what book was that,cycle of lies or which one?
 
Gregga said:

long story short, vetoo's source is portoleau & vayer. the time was taken from when the helicopter showed the peloton. well into the climb. Le breton already confirmed that 40:27 is correct indeed. still fast no doubt.


olano, the big soft user of mape squinzi clean, from 39 to 50:p


rominger,38 hematocrit up to 48 in 1990...well well well. this is probably evidence for number 1 epo pioneer until now. confirmed. still not exactly a bad rider looking at season '88 and '89. eprex first in swiss pharmacies or what lol?

what is to understand from these files, that even it seemed hardcore times, the pros weren't exactly suicidal and their docs kept them alive. few risked to go above 55 probably even in grand tours.
 
May 26, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
We know EPO benefits bigger riders.
Yeah agreed. Pantani, a giant. Berzin had the same size as Indurain. Chiapucci was known for his length.

Ohhhh wait... hmmm... facts are actually very ambiguous about this all.

But at least we have no long riders who won a TdF before Indurain. Merckx was a head smaller and Gimondi was a small guy... oh wait. That also isn't true.

This harping on length is so amusing when the evidence is just so ambiguous.

As was said before smaller riders have a big disadvantage, namely their organs and heads are proportionally bigger. They also have an advantage ofc, namely that certain important organs are relatively bigger.

But what is certainly true is that a longer guy can get a higher power to weight ratio due to above reasons.

What is also true is that nowadays we use a much higher cadence, which definitely changed the way we climb (less dancing!). And no, thats not just Lancey hooplah, it's definitely true we use lower gearing up hills.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Gregga said:
he had his first really good results at 25 (
....just consulted Dr. Google and found the following...

"He was the youngest rider ever to win the Spanish amateur national road championship, when he was 18,[4] at 20 the youngest rider to lead the Vuelta a España,[4] and at 20 he won a TT stage of the Tour de l'Avenir.[4][5][N 1..."

...last I checked the events mentioned were considered kinda important...so it would seem his talents were on display very early in his career....now he did spent time in his 20's forgoing personal glory and being a loyal domestique so his results during that period are not a fair indication of his talent...

Cheers
 
Apr 20, 2014
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D-Queued said:
You are playing at semantics, and I read your post very carefully.

I could have stated " 'what is or isn't' clear to you" but you chose to shout "CLEAR". Given your emphasis, then my statement that 'what is clear to you is of little interest here' holds.

Perhaps, noting your post count, you are not aware of what is likely fairly obvious: that accusations of LeMond doping are typically thread-jacking and trolling overtures. Such loaded statements are often made by newbies, who very often turn out to be banned posters returning under new handles.

As for your throwaway comment about the facts, and the need thereof, please refer to the Forum Rules
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/announcement.php?f=20



The need for facts, particularly when we are dealing with innuendo about doping, should be self-evident.

Don't you think?

Dave.
Sorry I'm late responding. The OP used Lemond in his original post as a base line. The posts that followed yours above also have Lemond. I have no proof of anything, but just as W/kg seems to be popular evidence IMO so are changes in body. Indurain is being compare to a baseline/standard.

It seems your position is to question that standard (stated in post one of this thread) is reason to quote forum rules and and talk about being a banned poster.
 
Gregga said:
1989 : spain riders at Caja Rural confessed testing EPO, same year Rominger appears in Ferrari's file with HCT yo-yoing)
http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

1987 EPO is available in Europe.

1989, Spanish cycling apparently has access. We know it was available in other countries.

It is absolutely reasonable to conclude Indurain would have access in 1989. It is also reasonable to conclude the Italians (Conconi/Ferrari) were at least experimenting with EPO.

Italy, Spain, Netherlands. I think that's sufficient evidence that elite international sport was aggressively experimenting with EPO.
 
sponsor said:
Sorry I'm late responding. The OP used Lemond in his original post as a base line. The posts that followed yours above also have Lemond. I have no proof of anything, but just as W/kg seems to be popular evidence IMO so are changes in body. Indurain is being compare to a baseline/standard.

It seems your position is to question that standard (stated in post one of this thread) is reason to quote forum rules and and talk about being a banned poster.
It is natural to compare LeMond to Indurain for a number of reasons.

Inferring, however, by ALL CAPS use of the word clear, that LeMond was doping is either foolish, naive, or purposeful trolling. The ALL CAPS can only be interpreted as an intent to raise ADDITIONAL attention to the point which does suggest the latter option. Kind of like using a flashy dodger to bring attention to your fishing lure. Even if the discussion made sense, there are other threads to discuss this 'beaten to death' assertion.

The poor track record of those promoting the LeMond doping assertion is relevant.

All IMHO, of course.

Dave.
 
D-Queued said:
Inferring, however, by ALL CAPS use of the word clear, that LeMond was doping is either foolish, naive, or purposeful trolling. The ALL CAPS can only be interpreted as an intent to raise ADDITIONAL attention to the point which does suggest the latter option. Kind of like using a flashy dodger to bring attention to your fishing lure. Even if the discussion made sense, there are other threads to discuss this 'beaten to death' assertion.

The poor track record of those promoting the LeMond doping assertion is relevant.

All IMHO, of course.

Dave.
Especially since there are a few different threads here relating to, and quashing the "LeMond doped too, I have proof" nonsense so many have spewed here in the past. Like you've said, that horse has been beaten down repeatedly. Sadly, that's the final attempt by Wonderboy fans to try to stick anything they can drum up, on LeMond. When then asked to provide the name(s) of one Doctor, or time, date of said doping, etc, toback up their claims, the crickets chirp usually follows.
 
Re: 1996 TdF

Le breton said:
Netserk said:
JV has explicitly said that all who rode the '96 Tour were doped.
Could you find the exact source?
Thanks.
I looked at the list of participants, and i would agree that a clean racer in 1996 would have had to be both a heroe and a potential "clean TdF" winner to just be chosen by any of those teams.
That being said, I would bet there were a handful of heroes among them.
Hi Le breton, today I was reading some of the beginning of the Kreuziger thread, when I read this post from JV:
JV1973 said:
Merckx index said:
OK, consider yourself being asked that question now. Or let’s say the top 25 or so of each GT, and of other, shorter stage races, and of major one day races.

Care to make an estimate for then and now?

Also would appreciate your insights on why the long delay in taking action on Kreuziger. Two years?! It doesn’t take that long to build a sanctionable case, and if I understand the story correctly, they haven’t gotten nearly that far yet.
2005 top ten TdF? I don't know, but I don't think its 80% clean or anywhere close to that. Maybe the inverse or more!

My point when I said 80-85% clean in 2005, is that there were plenty of guys slogging away in the grupetto clean in 2005. That was not true in 1996. by 2005, it was possible to be a professional cyclist without doping, albeit a mediocre one. In 1996, that was not a possibility, the grupetto would leave you for dead. It was an invisible, but still significant cultural change.

The bio-pass cases go through multiple levels. Computer/regression models first, then panel of 3 expert opinions, after panel of of 11 expert opinions. Each time an opportunity for the athlete to present a defense. It's a long process, but it's not something you'd want to get wrong. Still, it should be streamlined or expedited, I agree.
When I read it, I remembered the post by you that I have quoted, so after some searching I found your post. Back then I searched in the JV thread, so I couldn't find the quote to back my statement up, but I think the middle paragraph from JV's quoted post does that.

Cheers Netserk.

EDIT: Lol, I just found out that JV's post was posted 10 *after* yours :eek: I must have thought of a different post by JV when I wrote what you quoted me, but I hope this will do.
 
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