A Question About Indurain...

[Dazed and Confused]

I suppose the only debate is 80's doping vs 90's doping and the extent of the transformation.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[ElChingon]

Here is what a clean Indurain did to a doping Armstrong in '94:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGPGm38wt5g

See the action at the ~3:05 min mark.

Keep in mind that Lance, by his own admission, was doping at this time.

Clean Indurain >> dirty Lance.

Dave.

This clip at 3:05 with the time gap in overall classification should of been on infinite repeat in the background during the Oprah interview or at least shown at the end of the interview. "Here he is in '94 Tour pre Cancer getting dropped by his 3 minute man which is considered the biggest embarrassment in cycling and highlights the difference between a GC rider and a domestique or stage hunter, and also note that this is at the Tour, the high point in a riders season." Then show him in his doping haydays in a TT and the time gaps. Humm...

 

[42x16ss]

For me, the biggest question about Indurain is if he rode the 89 and 90 seasons with or without EPO. Without EPO, two straight Paris-Nice wins and TdF's ridden brilliantly in support of Delgado (he was arguably stronger in 90) are good indicators of someone that would probably be great in a cleaner era.

If Indurain was one of the absolute pioneers of EPO use, then he's nearly as bad as Armstrong. If he didn't start using it until 91-92, then some humble pie may be in order. Saddest thing is, we may never know

 

[hrotha]

This clip at 3:05 with the time gap in overall classification should of been on infinite repeat in the background during the Oprah interview or at least shown at the end of the interview. "Here he is in '94 Tour pre Cancer getting dropped by his 3 minute man which is considered the biggest embarrassment in cycling and highlights the difference between a GC rider and a domestique or stage hunter, and also note that this is at the Tour, the high point in a riders season." Then show him in his doping haydays in a TT and the time gaps. Humm...

The way people misrepresent that ITT is quite silly. Armstrong (not yet 23 years old at the time) did a very good time-trial, top 15. It's just that Indurain was ridiculous that day.

 

[poupou]

For information, when young, Jalabert was a good climber but of course not one of the best. So it was not a real transformation.
That does'nt means that his results were clean.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

to me indurain is a monstrous talent always. he was already the best gt rider by 1990/1989, in 1990 he was no doubt the strongest in the tour. also from his 80s riding to 1991 he lost 10 kg in bodyweight and was brought carefully by his team who understood his enormous talent. he was also a helper almost all the time except in smaller stage races, in which he dominated. I doubt he was on the epo already by 89 and 90.

 

[hrotha]

to me indurain is a monstrous talent always. he was already the best gt rider by 1990/1989, in 1990 he was no doubt the strongest in the tour. also from his 80s riding to 1991 he lost 10 kg in bodyweight and was brought carefully by his team who understood his enormous talent. he was also a helper almost all the time except in smaller stage races, in which he dominated. I doubt he was on the epo already by 89 and 90.

If he was, I reckon he would have faded a la Chiappucci as others caught up, but by 1994 and 1995 he was climbing faster than ever. Even with Conconi in the picture, I don't think there's much of a case for Indurain as a pioneer. He could always have been very conservative with his program at first, I suppose.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

If he was, I reckon he would have faded a la Chiappucci as others caught up, but by 1994 and 1995 he was climbing faster than ever. Even with Conconi in the picture, I don't think there's much of a case for Indurain as a pioneer. He could always have been very conservative with his program at first, I suppose.

he no doubt doped(later on perhaps also epo), but if there wasn't doping, the 90s would've been dominated by 3 men, pantani, mejia and indurain.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

he no doubt doped(later on perhaps also epo), but if there wasn't doping, the 90s would've been dominated by 3 men, pantani, mejia and indurain.

Do we have any indication what Pantani was like off the doping?

 

[roundabout]

My recollection is that Indurain looked like a tank in 1995.

Tank+10 kilos would have been Dario Pieri territory and no way Dario Pieri would have won Avenir.

 

[roundabout]

Sure thing, lost 10 kilos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6eItUnGSK2Q#t=801s

 

[Benotti69]

Indurain was the poster boy for how epo could literally make a decent rider into a GT champion.

Big Mig is comparable to a Cancellara, Tony Martin not Hinault, LeMond, Fignon, or other mulit GT winners. No chance.

Watching him 'motor' past Millar in the Pyrennes was alien.

 

[roundabout]

If he was, I reckon he would have faded a la Chiappucci as others caught up, but by 1994 and 1995 he was climbing faster than ever. Even with Conconi in the picture, I don't think there's much of a case for Indurain as a pioneer. He could always have been very conservative with his program at first, I suppose.

Chiappucci was competitive largely during the same period as Indurain. They also shared a doctor.

He did worse later on against Pantanis, Berzins and Ugrumovs, but he still got far better results than he should have.

And besides, that's just a comparison with Chiappucci, who should never have been top-10.

Doesn't make Indurain any more "legitimate" just because he didn't fade.

 

[hrotha]

Chiappucci was competitive largely during the same period as Indurain. They also shared a doctor.

He did worse later on against Pantanis, Berzins and Ugrumovs, but he still got far better results than he should have.

And besides, that's just a comparison with Chiappucci, who should never have been top-10.

Doesn't make Indurain any more "legitimate" just because he didn't fade.

Chiappuci stopped being a GT contender, much like the rest of the first serving of Indurain's rivals. That's all I meant.

I'm not saying he was legitimate because he didn't fade, I'm saying the fact that he only became a better climber as EPO became more widespread is a factor that should be taken into account.

 

[the asian]

94,95 there is no doubt that he was on EPO, some of his performances on the climbs were unbelievable. 91,92 I'm not so sure.
Anyway, he should have been on EPO after the Italians, don't think he started at the same time as Chiappuci.

 

[D-Queued]

Chiappuci stopped being a GT contender, much like the rest of the first serving of Indurain's rivals. That's all I meant.

I'm not saying he was legitimate because he didn't fade, I'm saying the fact that he only became a better climber as EPO became more widespread is a factor that should be taken into account.

Cappuccino shocked LeMond in 1990.

And, he was known to take his advantages:

... "LeMond is in great shape; no one will be able to beat him," said Luuk Blyboom, a Dutch journalist.

Perhaps, but Chiappucci is making the chase fascinating.

Wednesday, when a flat tire deflated LeMond's momentum in the Pyrenees, Chiappucci and his Carrera teammates did the unthinkable--they attacked.

Such tactics are considered unsportsmanlike. And in France, etiquette is everything.

If a challenger has a technical failure, the unwritten rule of cycling says you wait.

Chiappucci, sensing a huge opportunity, did not. ...

And past performance was more donkey-like, or Armstrong-like:

He has been riding professionally for six seasons but did not win a race for four years. He was relegated to the role of domestique, or worker, for his team's best riders. In last year's Tour de France, Chiappucci worked for Urs Zimmermann, who now rides for 7-Eleven.

Chiappucci finished 81st last year, 1 hour 53 minutes 4 seconds behind LeMond, who edged Laurent Fignon in Paris.

All of the sudden, LeMond was on a different planet surrounded by aliens.

Dave.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Do we have any indication what Pantani was like off the doping?

yes, back in the 80s he was dropping pro's like fly's while a junior in training himself. there are even videos of it on youtube

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Sure thing, lost 10 kilos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6eItUnGSK2Q#t=801s

in the 80s he was near 90 kg. he was under 80 by early to mid 90s.

he was always heavy yes. but compare him to ullrich, who was an enormously natural talent also in gt's. he was 183 and 73 in absolute topshape. indurain was 188x78 in absolute topshape, not so much a difference imo. and in talent comparable I'd say.

 

[esafosfina]

There were always 'murmurs' in the peloton about Reynolds / Banesto circa 89-91... Indurain and Olano notably amongst the mumblings... I'd be very surprised if he was squeaky clean... he was, as previously mentioned, a gentleman and a 'gentle-giant'. Doesn't negate the doubts though...

 

[pmcg76]

There were always 'murmurs' in the peloton about Reynolds / Banesto circa 89-91... Indurain and Olano notably amongst the mumblings... I'd be very surprised if he was squeaky clean... he was, as previously mentioned, a gentleman and a 'gentle-giant'. Doesn't negate the doubts though...

You sure you are not mixing Olano with Delgado!! Olano only turned pro in 92 for the CHCS team which folded and then moved onto Mapei. I think it was 96/97 before Olano landed at Banesto.

 

[eleven]

Indurain beat Boardman by 5 and a half minutes in that same TT.

five and a half minutes? over Boardman. I did not know that. Wow.

 

[doperhopper]

Generally, the game changer was, as the tiny light "mountain eagles" recall, when "the guys with fat asses began outpacing them in the mountains (early 90s)

 

[esafosfina]

You sure you are not mixing Olano with Delgado!! Olano only turned pro in 92 for the CHCS team which folded and then moved onto Mapei. I think it was 96/97 before Olano landed at Banesto.

Cheers for picking that up mate, my mistake! Wasn't Olano, I meant Melchor Mauri... Delgado had already been pinged for his 'probenecid' episode, so was always suspect!

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

There were always 'murmurs' in the peloton about Reynolds / Banesto circa 89-91... Indurain and Olano notably amongst the mumblings... I'd be very surprised if he was squeaky clean... he was, as previously mentioned, a gentleman and a 'gentle-giant'. Doesn't negate the doubts though...

oh the good old rumors... those must be facts!

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Generally, the game changer was, as the tiny light "mountain eagles" recall, when "the guys with fat asses began outpacing them in the mountains (early 90s)

how about lemond? the guy was 175 x 71. and wasn't build as a climber at all.]

one can generally say when the colombians were beaten in the mountains, epo really took a jump. early 90s