A Question About Indurain...

[SafeBet]

While he was the best climber of the time there are few that felt elite amateurs in Italy were running on panniagua.

Hrotha already answered this.
And it's pane e acqua anyway.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Wikipedia reports that Indurain began consulting Conconi from 87, so it's certainly possible that he started using EPO from at least 89 onwards.

http://nos.nl/video/478255-conconi-leerde-ferrari-dopingtrucs.html

A bit late but hell, let's be journalistic after 25 years.

 

[sniper]

http://nos.nl/video/478255-conconi-leerde-ferrari-dopingtrucs.html

A bit late but hell, let's be journalistic after 25 years.

conconi's test.
marginal gains.
not much has changed.

 

[sniper]

http://nos.nl/video/478255-conconi-leerde-ferrari-dopingtrucs.html

A bit late but hell, let's be journalistic after 25 years.

+1. jawdropping ignorance.

This new trend to start digging into the past (Conconi, Ferrari, Armstrong) seems nothing more than an easy excuse for journalists to ignore the problems of cycling at present.
I hope NOS prove me wrong and do a broadcasting like that on Leinders next week.

 

[coinneach]

+1. jawdropping ignorance.

This new trend to start digging into the past (Conconi, Ferrari, Armstrong) seems nothing more than an easy excuse for journalists to ignore the problems of cycling at present.
I hope NOS prove me wrong and do a broadcasting like that on Leinders next week.

I disagree: I think this investigating helps understand the scale of the problem.
Of course, its easier to get people to talk about their past rather than their present, but everyone now knows that it WILL come out , sooner or later, whereas in the past, Omerta ruled.

 

[sniper]

I disagree: I think this investigating helps understand the scale of the problem.
Of course, its easier to get people to talk about their past rather than their present, but everyone now knows that it WILL come out , sooner or later, whereas in the past, Omerta ruled.

I'm not sure if we disagree.
Of course broadcoasting this stuff about conconi/ferrari/indurain now is a very good thing, better than nothing.

Yet I see a great danger of committing the same mistakes as those that were committed back then. Many people/journo's are still incredibly eager to pretend that these were problems of the past, and that now everything is better.

Look at Armstrong, he's being scapegoated by a peloton of riders, DSs, journo's, and policy makers, all looking to sell the message that it's so much better now. I'd warn NOS for not doing the same with Conconi/Ferrari (i.e. pretending they're part of the past, whilst ignoring that other doping docs have taken their place).

Scapegoating the past while ignoring the plain fact that cycling continues to be rotten to the core...

I hope NOS will engage critically with cycling's problems at present, in addition to informing us about the past.

 

[coinneach]

I'm not sure if we disagree.
Of course broadcoasting this stuff about conconi/ferrari/indurain now is a very good thing, better than nothing.

Yet I see a great danger of committing the same mistakes as those that were committed back then. Many people/journo's are still incredibly eager to pretend that these were problems of the past, and that now everything is better.

Look at Armstrong, he's being scapegoated by a peloton of riders, DSs, journo's, and policy makers, all looking to sell the message that it's so much better now. I'd warn NOS for not doing the same with Conconi/Ferrari (i.e. pretending they're part of the past, whilst ignoring that other doping docs have taken their place).

Scapegoating the past while ignoring the plain fact that cycling continues to be rotten to the core...

I hope NOS will engage critically with cycling's problems at present, in addition to informing us about the past.

Thanks...what I really wanted to say is, what is NOS?

 

[sniper]

Thanks...what I really wanted to say is, what is NOS?

sorry! my bad.
It's the Dutch public broadcaster who made that little clip about conconi/ferrari which FGL posted.
They mainly do news and sports and they're the only Dutch broadcaster that covers cycling.
They used to be ignorant on doping, until the Rabo- and Lance-stories broke.

One of the NOS cycling commentators, ex-pro Maarten Ducrot, used to speak of "New Cycling" alot during the Armstrong/Contador era, of course implicitly referring to the Festina scandal and how everything had cleaned up afterwards. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

 

[sniper]

wasn't this public knowledge already?
apparently it wasn't, in which case the NOS (Dutch public broadcast foundation) deserve credit I guess.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-indurain-and-banesto-were-conconi-clients

 

[hrotha]

wasn't this public knowledge already?
apparently it wasn't, in which case the NOS (Dutch public broadcast foundation) deserve credit I guess.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-indurain-and-banesto-were-conconi-clients

IIRC it was known and acknowledged that Indurain consulted with Conconi in the late 80s, but not much was known about the degree to which Indurain worked with him at the time or after that (i.e. it was dismissed as "Conconi tested Indurain and realized he had superhuman physiological values and that he could be a GT contender"). It was mostly educated speculation. If they have evidence of large payments from the 90s, that at least is new.

I don't like the media getting on the anti-doping bandwagon when they ignored cycling before the Armstrong and Rabobank stories, but kudos to them for this piece of news.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I'm not saying that. I'm just merely pointing out how hypocrite people are here. in the 80s all the gt riders save the colombians, were build very big too

Not true. LeMond wasn't "built big", so not "all riders" were that way. Hinault wasn't either(Im assuming, Bauer, Hampsten, Phinney, Fignon etc, not "built big", just my opinion).

Miggy however was a "bigger" rider at 6'2" & around 180.

 

[86TDFWinner]

he finished every tour he started in the 80s except his first in 86, when he was only 21 also the year he won avenir in

BUT, his best "finish" pre 91 in the tour was 10th, and his best "finish" post 95, was 11th, then he "retires". Odd, and you draw your own conclusions.

 

[spalco]

Well, what's the conclusion from '96? That he stopped doping that year?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Nijboer entered Banesto in 1994, worked with Fuentes at Caja, obvious why he would only be going to Conconi for a test.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/jan96/5_1.html

''Indurain, now the Yellow Jersey wants an Italian Doctor!

Echavarri has contacted (Vroom Vroom) Conconi to replace Padilla who
took off suddenly to look after the footballers of l'Atletico Bilbao''

Was Padilla ever questioned over this piece:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11007591

Now we know why Coyle thought he could get away with his nonsence. 81kg and flying over the mountains, sure

Found something nice:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.bicycles.racing/2006-07/msg01556.html

Well, what's the conclusion from '96? That he stopped doping that year?

Pretty sure he did not want to juice like Riis, or, his trick was discovered by the rest of the pro-dopers. Must be a coincidence he quit cycling when the 50% rule was instated.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Well, what's the conclusion from '96? That he stopped doping that year?

I find it a bit strange that a guy who wanted to go for a 6th straight tour win in 96(supposedly), "suddenly" claims his "legs were bothering him" and he "retires" soon after(Big Mig finished 11th in 96).€. Like I said, you can draw your own conclusions.

 

[hrotha]

I find it a bit strange that a guy who wanted to go for a 6th straight tour win in 96(supposedly), "suddenly" claims his "legs were bothering him" and he "retires" soon after(Big Mig finished 11th in 96).€. Like I said, you can draw your own conclusions.

But what are yours?

 

[sniper]

...
Found something nice:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.bicycles.racing/2006-07/msg01556.html...

Both Merckx and Moser set their records at altitude in Mexico City, which at 8000 feet would present about a 10% power loss. Hence, Merckx and Moser's sea-level power was around 5.8 W/Kg, 9% less than Indurain, 15.5% less than Boardman, and 21% less than Rominger. Only the amateur Obree has a power-weight ratio consistent with Merckx and Moser, and by employing a radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

sounds plausible to me (for what it's worth)

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

sounds plausible to me (for what it's worth)

The 5.8 w/kg level sounds unlikely. This is what one might expect the elite guys to be able to do naturally at the end of a long mountain stage, in the mid/late part of a stage race.

The rested w/kg for an hour when rested (e.g. when attempting the Hour record) would be a lot higher. I recall LeMond saying that he was at the 6.2 level when rested (vs 5.8/5.9 unrested.) I've also read 6.3 w/kg attributed to Boardman for his "Hour" records.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The 5.8 w/kg level sounds unlikely. This is what one might expect the elite guys to be able to do naturally at the end of a long mountain stage, in the mid/late part of a stage race.

The rested w/kg for an hour when rested (e.g. when attempting the Hour record) would be a lot higher. I recall LeMond saying that he was at the 6.2 level when rested (vs 5.8/5.9 unrested.) I've also read 6.3 w/kg attributed to Boardman for his "Hour" records.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.bicycles.racing/2006-07/msg01427.html

Cyclist W/Kg
Merckx 5.3
Moser 5.3
Obree 5.1
Indurain 6.3
Rominger 7.0
Boardman 6.7

They all sleeped for a month before, well rested.

 

[Escarabajo]

...

Indurain, in my opinion, was an early adopter of EPO, and perhaps had to re-up things in 1994 and 1995, after getting run close by Ugrumov in the Giro, and put under a great deal of pressure by Rominger in the Tour in 1993.

I think the Tyler book suggested that Riis did EPO and 3 transfusions in the 1996 Tour. I wonder if there were earlier adopters of this type of strategy, with maybe fewer bags...

Who wanted to do transfusions in 1996? it was not even close to worth it. There was no test for EPO, and there wasn't even a limit for the hematocrit %.

 

[Escarabajo]

Well, what's the conclusion from '96? That he stopped doping that year?

IMHO, he did not stop doping, but the others were being a lot more aggressive with their programs. Riis took it to another level. Remember that it was after 1996 that they had to use the hematocrit limit. There were rumors of riders abusing to new levels like 60% and above. That is dangerous (not to say that it wasn't before).

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.bicycles.racing/2006-07/msg01427.html

Cyclist W/Kg
Merckx 5.3
Moser 5.3
Obree 5.1
Indurain 6.3
Rominger 7.0
Boardman 6.7

They all sleeped for a month before, well rested.

The altitude adjusted 5.8 w/kg as Merckx' rested power/weight for the hour seems very low, given what's known about riders' performance when fatigued in stage races.

It also seems odd that Boardman's resistance measure is higher than Obree's given that he was smaller than Obree (69kg vs 71kg) and in the Superman position, which was more aero than the original Obree position.

I wouldn't dispute that B's 1996 performance was eyebrow raising, though.

 

[86TDFWinner]

But what are yours?

And what are yours?

Mine is that I think "Big Miggy" doped along with the rest of them, but I have no proof that he did. In 1996, I think he realized his methods to win, weren't benefitting him any longer, so to try to save face, he conveniently and quietly "retires" knowing he's been beaten by younger, hungrier, more advanced dopers. How else would you explain his 11th place finish in 96? But, since your "SOL" you like to throw around all the time has run out on the big fella, I guess we'll never truely know one way or another, right?Do you have proof that he didn't, and do you think Miggy didnt dope at all during his career?

Of course all of this is just my opinion.

 

[spalco]

I can't speak for hrotha, but I was honestly interested in hearing what your conclusion was.

I think, Indurain logically had to have been doped to have the kind of success he did at that time, but presenting his TdF finishing positions as proof is not convincing to me, and I don't think they tell a coherent story in regards to doping in his case.

 

[The Hitch]

And what are yours?

Mine is that I think "Big Miggy" doped along with the rest of them, but I have no proof that he did. .

The Salbutamol positive is a smoking gun as far as im concerned. If a rider tested positive for that now it would be a 2 year ban and getting spat on for the rest of their lives.