A Question About Indurain...

[Dr. Maserati]

For the record, the SOL was not waived, it was ignored. There either is or is not a SOL. The decided the evidence was so compelling that the SOL should not apply. Not sure you could get away with that little trick in an actual courtroom.

They waived/ignored SOL as it is often done in US cases which is the law they are using. And it worked, worked very well indeed.
If Mr Armstrong was worried about it he could have challenged it when he went to arbitration but he waived/ignored that opportunity.

 

[Aleajactaest]

They waived/ignored SOL as it is often done in US cases which is the law they are using. And it worked, worked very well indeed.
If Mr Armstrong was worried about it he could have challenged it when he went to arbitration but he waived/ignored that opportunity.

Pick if you must but there is a difference. USADA is not in a position to waive the SOL. They are, however, free to ignore it. Carry on.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

For the record, the SOL was not waived, it was ignored. There either is or is not a SOL. The decided the evidence was so compelling that the SOL should not apply. Not sure you could get away with that little trick in an actual courtroom.

Wrong. For the record, it is the burden of the party asserting the defense to raise and prove the issue. Armstrong chose not to raise the issue. It is not the job of the parting bringing the case to assert that the SOL was not exceeded. Period. That is how it works in an "actual courtroom." If the defendant never raises the issue of SOL, it does not have to be raised.

EDIT: Certainly you will see complaints that address the issue of SOL because any competent lawyer would anticipate the arguments the other side will raise. However, it is NOT their burden to prove the SOL was not exceeded. It is the burden of the defendant to prove it was. Period.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Pick if you must but there is a difference. USADA is not in a position to waive the SOL. They are, however, free to ignore it. Carry on.

You are the one who is trying to 'pick' things.
USADA mentioned SOL in their charging letter, so they did not ignore it. They said it was tolled because of fraudulent concealment and had legal precedent before because it had been tested in the Hellebuyck case.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You are the one who is trying to 'pick' things.
USADA mentioned SOL in their charging letter, so they did not ignore it. They said it was tolled because of fraudulent concealment and had legal precedent before because it had been tested in the Hellebuyck case.

Again, it wasn't their burden to PROVE the SOL was not exceeded. They addressed it because they anticipated that Armstrong would raise the defense that the SOL was exceeded, but it was his burden and his alone to prove the SOL had expired.

 

[Aleajactaest]

You are the one who is trying to 'pick' things.
USADA mentioned SOL in their charging letter, so they did not ignore it. They said it was tolled because of fraudulent concealment and had legal precedent before because it had been tested in the Hellebuyck case.

By tolling, they essentially said it was nullified by the circumstances and continued to run. I think that's just a nice juicy rationalization for ignoring it. We won't agree. Move on.

 

[Race Radio]

Pick if you must but there is a difference. USADA is not in a position to waive the SOL. They are, however, free to ignore it. Carry on.

Nonsense.

They did not waive SOL they tolled it. It is well define and has been ratified by CAS

Carry on

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Again, it wasn't their burden to PROVE the SOL was not exceeded. They addressed it because they anticipated that Armstrong would raise the defense that the SOL was exceeded, but it was his burden and his alone to prove the SOL had expired.

Agree.
Just pointing out it was not 'ignored' as claimed.

 

[Aleajactaest]

Again, it wasn't their burden to PROVE the SOL was not exceeded. They addressed it because they anticipated that Armstrong would raise the defense that the SOL was exceeded, but it was his burden and his alone to prove the SOL had expired.

And, it appears he intends to do that in the Qui Tam suit. Regardless, the reason for tolling the SOL was to make the actions more punitive. We all know that. Let's not be disingenuous.

 

[Aleajactaest]

Agree.
Just pointing out it was not 'ignored' as claimed.

Self licking ice cream cone....

 

[fmk_RoI]

I think Indurain's decline had more to do with Padilla leaving and the rest of the peloton's program catching up

That's what I thought, but did you see Tweet from Daniel Friebe, saying that while Padilla had left the team, he continued to work with Indurain during 96?

General Q peeps:

What had happened with Banesto to bring about major down-sizing at end of 95? Was sponsorship income cut or had expenses shot up? (Eg bonus payments).

 

[Race Radio]

That's what I thought, but did you see Tweet from Daniel Friebe, saying that while Padilla had left the team, he continued to work with Indurain during 96?

General Q peeps:

What had happened with Banesto to bring about major down-sizing at end of 95? Was sponsorship income cut or had expenses shot up? (Eg bonus payments).

I do not think he is correct.

Padilla left because he got a big $$$ offer from Athletic de Bilbao. I remember very clearly that they were angry that he left and Indurian was looking for a new doctor. There was even an article about it where Conconi name was mentioned

I hear he is living in Canada now

 

[Race Radio]

And, it appears he intends to do that in the Qui Tam suit. Regardless, the reason for tolling the SOL was to make the actions more punitive. We all know that. Let's not be disingenuous.

more nonsense.

We all know that tolling the SOL was due to the great lengths Armstrong and his co-conspirators went to cover up the truth.

Lets not be disingenuous

 

[hrotha]

I do not think he is correct.

Padilla left because he got a big $$$ offer from Athletic de Bilbao. I remember very clearly that they were angry that he left and Indurian was looking for a new doctor. There was even an article about it where Conconi name was mentioned

I hear he is living in Canada now

The story circulating the Spanish forums is that Indurain wanted to keep working with Padilla but Banesto wouldn't let him, so they had one big falling-out.

 

[Race Radio]

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/jan96/5_1.html

Interesting story from 1995

Echavarri has contacted (Vroom Vroom) Conconi to replace Padilla who
took off suddenly to look after the footballers of l'Atletico Bilbao

Wednesday, Jose Miguel Echavarri, Indurain's friend and Technical
Director, met in Milan with medical and technical gurus from the
team of celebrated Ferrari professor Francesco Conconi.

"I am seeking collaboration with Casoni, Alfieri and Lodi - said
Echavarri -. ] at least for a team get together which will be
held in Palma di Maiorca in February. There will hopefully be
some tests in Milan followed by a week at Pamplona. At the
present time the Italians lead the world in sports medicine and
training techniques."

"A void has been left by Sabino Padilla, the medic who has left
Banesto after so many years to take a position with the football
club Atletico Bilbao. Sabino, who was Indurain's personal
trainer, left without even mapping out the season", reported
Echavarri.

"So we have to find a new medic, either in Spain or in Italy, but
probably from the University of Ferrara. As of now Casoni,
Alfieri and Lodi are being considered as our consultants."

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And, it appears he intends to do that in the Qui Tam suit. Regardless, the reason for tolling the SOL was to make the actions more punitive. We all know that. Let's not be disingenuous.

Let's not be disingenuous, the reason for tolling and SOL is COMPLETELY based on fault of the defendant. The actions in the proceeding lead to a punitive result. Being "more punitive" in this context is like being "more pregnant." The SOL does nothing to enhance the actual punishment, which is the "punitive" aspect of the proceeding. Tolling of the SOL serves merely to extend punitive action to a defendant who concealed his crimes. That isn't "more punitive." It is the same punitive, just at a later time.

As for his intention to raise the defense in the Qui Tam...yea, his attorneys would be disbarred if they didn't. What's funny is that if that is your best argument (and considering they are leading with that), you can surmise that they are pretty f*&ked for other arguments.

EDIT: I also have another suggestion, don't go throwing the "that's how it works in a real court of law" when that isn't how it works in a real court of law.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

By tolling, they essentially said it was nullified by the circumstances and continued to run. I think that's just a nice juicy rationalization for ignoring it. We won't agree. Move on.

Again, you don't seem to get it. It isn't their job. The burden of proving that an SOL has run is on the DEFENDANT. Are you seriously suggesting that the USADA or anyone else shouldn't pursue a case because the defendant is likely to raise and SOL issue they can counter? And if by "nice and juicy" you mean "well withing the standards for tolling an SOL," then yea...

SOL can be powerful if you have a legitimate case, but if Weisel is out there saying HE DIDN'T KNOW, and Lance's attorneys are asserting that the USPS should have...well, I wouldn't lose much sleep over the threat of an SOL defense with those facts... I think Floyd is going to come out okay on this issue. But hey, it's all Wonderboy has really.

 

[del1962]

Indurain has apparently said "'Nothing happened in Armstrong's career but they sanctioned him for non-sporting reasons"

https://twitter.com/friebos/status/395907813870161920

 

[The Hitch]

He doesnt say nothing happened, but that he went through his career without problems.

Nothing new from indurain and still very light compared to Wiggins, but that's ultra hypocrisy for you. It's ok for him to say these things knowing Armstrong doped, but not for Indurain

 

[del1962]

Indurain thread about Indurain so stop trolling

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Indurain has apparently said "'Nothing happened in Armstrong's career but they sanctioned him for non-sporting reasons"

https://twitter.com/friebos/status/395907813870161920

He doesnt say nothing happened, but that he went through his career without problems.

Nothing new from indurain and still very light compared to Wiggins, but that's ultra hypocrisy for you. It's ok for him to say these things knowing Armstrong doped, but not for Indurain

"...[P]asó su carrera sin ningún problema, pero por cosas extradeportivas le han sancionado. Es un caso raro dentro del mundo del deporte."

It still reeks of whistling past the graveyard. Indurain knows his own legacy hangs on tenterhooks.

 

[D-Queued]

um...even in an ITT?

dave, i know you look at indurain through rose-colored glasses. and that's okay with me -- as you have clear sight on almost everything else.

So, ok, since this thread started we now have this silly poll about who used EPO first. And, we still have this thread alive. People are still posting things about Big Mig.

Why are we even discussing Indurain any more.

He was clean, I tell you. Clean.

How many of you can ride at 508 watts for an hour like he did? How many can ride for ten minutes at 508 watts? Five minutes?

Until you can, you haven't reached a level where you can comment about Indurain.

End of discussion.

Please close thread!

Dave.

 

[TomasC]

I don't know for how long Paul Kimmage can hold 508 watts, but for some it may be interesting that he publicly called out Miguel in an interview for Humo about Armstrong:
"It wasn’t only about him obviously. People like Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurian have cheated all the time. Last summer I was in the Tour again, and I saw some particularly weird stuff going on."

 

[zalacain]

It reminds me of Big MIG .... medicore rider becomes GT winner with the introduction of a new PED

Mediocre?
Early life and amateur career

Miguel Indurain was born in the village of Villava (now Villava – Atarrabia), which is now an outlying area of Pamplona. He has three sisters – Isabel, María Dolores and María Asunción[6] – and a brother, Prudencio, who also became a professional cyclist. His first bicycle was a green secondhand Olmo given to him for his 10th birthday. It was stolen when he was 11 and he worked in the fields with his father to pay for a new one.

Indurain tried running, basketball, javelin and football from nine to 14. Then he joined the local CC Villavés and rode his first race in July 1978,an event for unlicensed riders in which he came second.He won his second race and competed every week thereafter.His hero in cycling was Bernard Hinault. At 18 he was the youngest winner of the national amateur road championship.
In 1984 he rode the Olympic Games in Los Angeles and then turned professional on 4 September for Reynolds. He won his first professional race a week later, a time trial in the Tour de l'Avenir.In 1985 he started the Vuelta a España and came second in the prologue, behind Bert Oosterbosch. Oosterbosch lost time on the second stage and Indurain became leader, the youngest rider to do it.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Mediocre?
Early life and amateur career

Miguel Indurain was born in the village of Villava (now Villava – Atarrabia), which is now an outlying area of Pamplona. He has three sisters – Isabel, María Dolores and María Asunción[6] – and a brother, Prudencio, who also became a professional cyclist. His first bicycle was a green secondhand Olmo given to him for his 10th birthday. It was stolen when he was 11 and he worked in the fields with his father to pay for a new one.

Indurain tried running, basketball, javelin and football from nine to 14. Then he joined the local CC Villavés and rode his first race in July 1978,an event for unlicensed riders in which he came second.He won his second race and competed every week thereafter.His hero in cycling was Bernard Hinault. At 18 he was the youngest winner of the national amateur road championship.
In 1984 he rode the Olympic Games in Los Angeles and then turned professional on 4 September for Reynolds. He won his first professional race a week later, a time trial in the Tour de l'Avenir.In 1985 he started the Vuelta a España and came second in the prologue, behind Bert Oosterbosch. Oosterbosch lost time on the second stage and Indurain became leader, the youngest rider to do it.

He was a mediocre GT rider in his early years. Mig's first 4 GT finishes (up to age 24) were 84th, 92nd, 97th and 47th. One can excuse a certain amount of slipping down the leaderboard for domestiquing duties, but pre EPO, every multiple GT winner was prominent in the overall standings at a very young age, irrespective of team duties. If someone replicated Mig's career progression now then the Clinic would explode.

Leading a GT early on is no reliable indicator of GT potential, even if achieved early in a career. Boardman and Saint David of Millar both wore yellow after their debut stages in the Tour and GT success proved somewhat elusive for them.