A Question About Indurain...

[Franklin]

He was a mediocre GT rider in his early years. Mig's first 4 GT finishes (up to age 24) were 84th, 92nd, 97th and 47th. One can excuse a certain amount of slipping down the leaderboard for domestiquing duties, but pre EPO, every multiple GT winner was prominent in the overall standings at a very young age, irrespective of team duties. If someone replicated Mig's career progression now then the Clinic would explode.

And once again someone blatantly refuses to accept cold hard facts. Let's state them for the umpteenth time:

1. Miguel Indurain was Pre epo seen as THE coming man. Not by me, as I didn't belive in him, but every cycling mag hyped him for years. No, not just the Spanish, but so did the Dutch mag Wielerrevue. Were these people all psychic and did they just know about epo? Or was there something about Mig. Let's toss out the paranormal and go with that people indeed knew he would be good.
2. Miguel was brought slow. Every year again and again Echevarri stressed this. Again, this is Pre-Epo. Or do you actually think Echevarri was instrumental in researching Epo?

Sorry W&G, I am sick and tired of all this nonsense about Miguel. Was he on Epo. Certainly. Would he have won 5 times without Epo? Who knows? But anyone saying he was a scrub without Epo is just blatantly falsifying history.

Every time someone brings it up without mentioning that he was already hailed as the next big thing by the cycling world since mid 80ies. it's such nonsense. Only if Miguel was part of the biggest international conspiracy spanning every European cycling magazine and the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[SundayRider]

And once again someone blatantly refuses to accept cold hard facts. Let's state them for the umpteenth time:

1. Miguel Indurain was Pre epo seen as THE coming man. Not by me, as I didn't belive in him, but every cycling mag hyped him for years. No, not just the Spanish, but so did the Dutch mag Wielerrevue. Were these people all psychic and did they just know about epo? Or was there something about Mig. Let's toss out the paranormal and go with that people indeed knew he would be good.
2. Miguel was brought slow. Every year again and again Echevarri stressed this. Again, this is Pre-Epo. Or do you actually think Echevarri was instrumental in researching Epo?

Sorry W&G, I am sick and tired of all this nonsense about Miguel. Was he on Epo. Certainly. Would he have won 5 times without Epo? Who knows? But anyone saying he was a scrub without Epo is just blatantly falsifying history.

Every time someone brings it up without mentioning that he was already hailed as the next big thing by the cycling world since mid 80ies. it's such nonsense. Only if Miguel was part of the biggest international conspiracy spanning every European cycling magazine and the pharmaceutical industry.

He wouldn't have even finished top 10 in the Tour without EPO. Simply too heavy.

 

[Franklin]

He wouldn't have even finished top 10 in the Tour without EPO. Simply too heavy.

Indeed, your eyeball beats all the experts over 5 years long. I assume you can guess on a glance who is and who isn't a star? Oh and do you have an explanation why every expert was so deluded? I assume massive bribes at international level?

Also, when he won his first mountain stage in 1989 I assume he was on the very first ampuls of epo? Seems very plausible that a spaniard would get his hands on that stuff.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

And once again someone blatantly refuses to accept cold hard facts. Let's state them for the umpteenth time:

1. Miguel Indurain was Pre epo seen as THE coming man. Not by me, as I didn't belive in him, but every cycling mag hyped him for years. No, not just the Spanish, but so did the Dutch mag Wielerrevue. Were these people all psychic and did they just know about epo? Or was there something about Mig. Let's toss out the paranormal and go with that people indeed knew he would be good.
2. Miguel was brought slow. Every year again and again Echevarri stressed this. Again, this is Pre-Epo. Or do you actually think Echevarri was instrumental in researching Epo?

Sorry W&G, I am sick and tired of all this nonsense about Miguel. Was he on Epo. Certainly. Would he have won 5 times without Epo? Who knows? But anyone saying he was a scrub without Epo is just blatantly falsifying history.

Every time someone brings it up without mentioning that he was already hailed as the next big thing by the cycling world since mid 80ies. it's such nonsense. Only if Miguel was part of the biggest international conspiracy spanning every European cycling magazine and the pharmaceutical industry.

In the part of my original post that you quoted, I made 4 points:

1 - Mig's early GT career was mediocre

2 - His first 4 GT finishing positions and the age by which he achieved them

3 - All other multiple GT winners had finished very high in the standings by the age Mig was just breaking into the top 50

4 - Mig's career progression now would blow up the Clinic

Points 2 and 3 are facts.

Point 1 is clearly a subjective view, but I think "mediocre" is a good assessment. If it's wrong, it's probably too generous.

Point 4 is a punt, but given the hoohah over Froome and Wiggins, I think I'm on safe ground.

So which of my points do you disagree with?

I'm not bothered what coaches predicted for Mig. History of full of people for whom great things are predicted who achieve very little. It's better to look at the characteristics of those who have achieved and spot outliers, and Mig is most definitely an outlier amongst multiple GT winners. He may be the exception that proves the rule, but I wouldn't put much money on it.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I assume massive bribes at international level?

?? We already know the UCI protects some athletes. We don't know how or why. Why not Indurain?

Also, when he won his first mountain stage in 1989 I assume he was on the very first ampuls of epo? Seems very plausible that a spaniard would get his hands on that stuff.

Don't let facts get in the way of some vigorous denial.

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

Historical aspects of human recombinant erythropoietin in sport

1977 Purified EPO is isolated from human urine for the first time.

1985 EPO gene is cloned.

1987 Recombinant EPO is first available in Europe.

1987-1990 A number of deaths of competitive Dutch and Belgian cyclists is linked to EPO use (see Gambrell/Lombardo, ch. 1; Rossi et al., ch. 1; Deacon/Gains, ch. 3).

May I also remind you there was no test for EPO, so he was never cheating.

I know, I know, the IAAF is not a credible source of evidence. Can you please give up on Indurain. Or, maybe Froome is Indurain version 3.0?

 

[Franklin]

I'm not bothered what coaches predicted for Mig. History of full of people for whom great things are predicted who achieve very little.

Obviously, you read that I didn't believe it either at the time. But I also said quite specifically it was noy just the coaches.

Now I re-ask the same questions which nobody has answered as they are like Thors hammer on the Miguel is a scrub story.

How did everyone know Epo would be found and would be the key to unlock Indurain?

Why did Miguel as only one get early samples of Epo and Delgado didn't? Because Delgado did not fade away when everyone was on Epo, so it's really farfetched to state he was on Epo before the 90'ies. Unless Delgado managed to raise his baseline twice?

And on the bribes, Sure, bribe the UCI, but my question is: did they also manage to bribe every pundit since 1986? What kind of funds and sinistre sway does this Indurain have as a young pro?

And on the early Epo: What is the clout that gave Miguel access to this wonder drug? Why is he the first who actually has results? He takes a few years to dial it in, so he's a bit of an oaf considering a Bugno got cracking within a year.

Clearly the narrative of early Epo on Miguel Indurain is bogus. It clashes with Delgado's progression and it would only work if it takes very long for Miguel actually to jump out through Epo, something others manage immediately.

And on the Mediocre with GT's. If you watched the TdF those years you would know he was not mediocre at all. He was the super domestique of one of the best GT riders of that era. In 1987 and 1988 he got his teammate to 2nd and 1st while his Chief also was repeatedly saying they kept him down. (Again, clearly they knew about Epo back then, but had some trouble getting it right^^).

It's funny that facts hold no sway when discussing Miguel Indurain. The narrative must be he is a scrub, otherwise the whole guard change due to Epo is not dramatic enough. It's ridiculous... Indurain was a supertalent who happened to ride along at the Epo era and took advantage of that.

 

[roundabout]

I thought Indurain was a Conconi client in the 80's.

 

[Franklin]

I thought Indurain was a Conconi client in the 80's.

Jep, Mig was almost certainly using bloodtransfusions. Those were actually very common over the whole world. Before 1986 it wasn't even prohibited.

The first rider I have confirmation of is Joop Zoetemelk 1976.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

...so it's really farfetched to state he was on Epo before the 90'ies.

I assume "he" refers to Mig here.

Obviously, unless Mig talks, we'll not know for sure, but we do have these "extreme" ends to Mig's performance levels:

Early 80s, pre EPO - Breaks into the top 50 of the Tour aged 24, after a range of DNFs and placings in the 80s/90s. Whatever reasons you give, these are not the usual performance levels of a future multiple GT winner.

1992/93, Just prior to the peak EPO years of 94-98 - Back to back Giro/Tour doubles. I don't think I'm stretching credibility to suggest that dominating GTs in the EPO era required use of EPO.

So we are left with the middle years i.e. 1989-1991 when Mig improved quite dramatically. He either did this naturally or reasonably naturally and then started using EPO to do the double in 1992, or he did it via early adoption of EPO. The least implausible explanation is the latter.

 

[DirtyWorks]

How did everyone know Epo would be found and would be the key to unlock Indurain?

Right, so ignore the simple fact EPO was available, Mig going midpack-to-hero like Froome, and every other known EPO transformation. Also ignore that EPO did not work universally well for athletes. And then drill down some more looking for some detail to hang a belief on just doesn't work.

And on the bribes, Sure, bribe the UCI, but my question is: did they also manage to bribe every pundit since 1986?

You must be new here. See every edition of VeloNews with an Armstrong story in it up to about 2012. I'll give you a clue, writers need access. In exchange for access, writers tell the subject's story. That is my gift to you today. Though, you will not acknowledge it.

It's funny that facts hold no sway when discussing Miguel Indurain.

Mmm. Yes. Facts. Like the ones that got in the way of your beliefs.

Again, it's time to let this one go.

 

[deviant]

wiki has Mig down as a Conconi client from 1987 onwards....take that as you will....we know Conconi pioneered the use of EPO in sport, its not far fetched to think that Mig would have been one of the early adopters under the wing of Conconi and the Ferrara Institute.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

wiki has Mig down as a Conconi client from 1987 onwards....take that as you will....we know Conconi pioneered the use of EPO in sport, its not far fetched to think that Mig would have been one of the early adopters under the wing of Conconi and the Ferrara Institute.

then explain how indurain was on the epo and delgado wasn't? look at the 1990 tour. indurain was the best rider that tour and delgado a known doper in 80s wasn't on epo for sure. indurain still had to work for delgado everywhere

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

He was a mediocre GT rider in his early years. Mig's first 4 GT finishes (up to age 24) were 84th, 92nd, 97th and 47th. One can excuse a certain amount of slipping down the leaderboard for domestiquing duties, but pre EPO, every multiple GT winner was prominent in the overall standings at a very young age, irrespective of team duties. If someone replicated Mig's career progression now then the Clinic would explode.

Leading a GT early on is no reliable indicator of GT potential, even if achieved early in a career. Boardman and Saint David of Millar both wore yellow after their debut stages in the Tour and GT success proved somewhat elusive for them.

so much bull**** indurain was brought by echavarry and unzue, known to be VERY careful ALWAYS with their talents. indurain was a huge prospect alreayd in early 80s as a talent. pre-epo no doubt. he was already winning and dominating smaller stage races like paris nice at young age in first half of 80s. pre epo. in the 1990 tour he was the strongest rider by far in the tour already despite him not finishing in top 10. 1990 tour that lemond could still win pre-epo perhaps

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

He wouldn't have even finished top 10 in the Tour without EPO. Simply too heavy.

lemond was 175x69 kg same weight as cavendish for instance. explain....

 

[sponsor]

.
It's pretty clear LeMond was clean throughout his career.

Just read 10 posts in I can't read the whole thread...
It is not CLEAR to me Lemond was clean.

On his return - acne scars, visual appearance of lower body development and one of the most incredible TTs ever - that they are quick to attribute to tri bars while his opponent had a front disc on the last day...

Then "he doth protest too much"

Its not clear to me any TDF winner of recent was clean.

 

[D-Queued]

Just read 10 posts in I can't read the whole thread...
It is not CLEAR to me Lemond was clean.

On his return - acne scars, visual appearance of lower body development and one of the most incredible TTs ever - that they are quick to attribute to tri bars while his opponent had a front disc on the last day...

Then "he doth protest too much"

Its not clear to me any TDF winner of recent was clean.

1. Wrong thread.

2. That dog don't hunt.

3. Don't take this personally, but we probably don't care what is clear to you. Bring us facts or forget it.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

then explain how indurain was on the epo and delgado wasn't? look at the 1990 tour. indurain was the best rider that tour and delgado a known doper in 80s wasn't on epo for sure. indurain still had to work for delgado everywhere

Humans respond in different ways to medications.

Why do some people die from some diseases while others are cured!

 

[D-Queued]

1. Wrong thread.

2. That dog don't hunt.

3. Don't take this personally, but we probably don't care what is clear to you. Bring us facts or forget it.

Dave.

Oh, and if you do have facts take them to Lance before you even think about posting them here.

Pretty sure that he has a large cash offer for anyone with this information, and it is likely still there for the taking.

Dave.

 

[BYOP88]

Oh, and if you do have facts take them to Lance before you even think about posting them here.

Pretty sure that he has a large cash offer for anyone with this information, and it is likely still there for the taking.

Dave.

If anyone wants that cash best come forward with the info quickly, that cash might not be around in a few months time.

 

[sponsor]

...
3. Don't take this personally, but we probably don't care what is clear to you. Bring us facts or forget it.

Except I posted it was NOT clear to me.
What have facts got to do with the clinic anyway?

 

[hiero2]

. . .
It is not CLEAR to me Lemond was clean. . .

Then either:

you haven't done your research.

Or

you are a greater sceptic than I dare to be regarding the opinions of riders and experts who WERE THERE.

But isn't this the Indurain thread? WUWT?

 

[hiero2]

That's a nice narrative, which sadly isn't close to being true. Indurain was working with Conconi, the godfather of EPO use in cycling, starting in the 80's. He was at the forefront of dope. He made a lot of world-class TT guys look silly in that TT, and it goes does as one of the most ridiculous performances in sport. Sillier, frankly, than any of Armstrong's performances since the doping playing field was "less level" at that time than any other.

Take a look at Indurain's incredible TT performances in his first few TDF's, compared to the first TT's by guys who were actual GT riders before the EPO era. He became a completely different dude. Science Project...end of story.

Yup. Hindsight. 20/20, all that, but yup. Just Big Mig was a nice guy. And, he started his TdF reign in the era when it was, ahem, a "grey" area, not black and white. Obviously, for some people, people who claim to be in the social subgroup labeled "peloton", it was still a grey area for another 20 years.

 

[D-Queued]

Except I posted it was NOT clear to me.
What have facts got to do with the clinic anyway?

You are playing at semantics, and I read your post very carefully.

I could have stated " 'what is or isn't' clear to you" but you chose to shout "CLEAR". Given your emphasis, then my statement that 'what is clear to you is of little interest here' holds.

Perhaps, noting your post count, you are not aware of what is likely fairly obvious: that accusations of LeMond doping are typically thread-jacking and trolling overtures. Such loaded statements are often made by newbies, who very often turn out to be banned posters returning under new handles.

As for your throwaway comment about the facts, and the need thereof, please refer to the Forum Rules
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/announcement.php?f=20

...

• Hijacking topic without a good reason and/or new information.

...

Proof of point, opinions, and common knowledge: you can't just say "we know Bobby the Bod is doping" as a fact. You can't claim your post as a fact unless you provide some proof using linked sources or verifiable material. If, on the other hand, it is in the realm of "common knowledge", then it is acceptable to make an unverified statement. Be careful - common knowledge would apply, for instance, at the time of this posting, to Lance Armstrong. But allegations of current doping, and current riders, would not be "common knowledge" at this point. To be common knowledge, the "fact" has to have been published, widely read, and widely agreed with. This point is particularly applicable in The Clinic.

...

The need for facts, particularly when we are dealing with innuendo about doping, should be self-evident.

Don't you think?

Dave.

 

[Saint Unix]

Shows the average power output on the climbs for various TdF winners. What does this tell us? Indurain wasn't superhuman during his first two wins, but something huge happened in 1993, and Indurain without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, started using EPO then at the latest. It also shows how completely messed up the mid-90's were. EPO free-for-all, basically.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Were any of those climbs 60 minutes or more?