Aero gone wild

[StinkFist]

^^
Correct.

Take a look at AC's / Nibs / Dawg's TT set up and fine tuning to get an idea of how much emphasis they put on "Aero" these days.....or perhaps more accurately, their Bike Sponsor.

For the Joe Average Punter....you can "Buy" some speed up to a certain point -

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

I wonder if it was offered to Nibali or Contador? Surely saving energy over 3 weeks is as important as winning a sprint?

Or maybe... they're not impressed (as both Nibs and AC use mech shifting).

Those guys are
Far more worried about their back, neck and shoulders being fresh in the third week. Something that doesn't happen when you're on a heavy, strange handling bike with the ride quality of a brick.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

I wonder if it was offered to Nibali or Contador? Surely saving energy over 3 weeks is as important as winning a sprint?

Or maybe... they're not impressed (as both Nibs and AC use mech shifting).

Those guys are
Far more worried about their back, neck and shoulders being fresh in the third week. Something that doesn't happen when you're on a heavy, strange handling bike with the ride quality of a brick.

Ride "quality" is primarily a function of tyre pressure (and bike fit obviously).

When tested in blinded conditions (IOW the bike was camouflaged sufficiently), experienced riders are generally unable to distinguish between "compliant" frames and "stiff aero" designs. When they do notice a difference between bikes, it was consistently due to tyre pressure, not the frame.

As for earlier comments about lack of importance of aero when climbing or when drafting, whilst the impact is reduced, it is still there and at levels that can matter. When riding at near your maximal power for the duration of a climb, even a few watts saved makes a difference. The difference between hanging on and cracking.

As for being in the draft, anything that further reduces the energy demand without other penalty is usually a good idea. Air resistance doesn't disappear just because you are drafting.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

It's important that the UCI place certain restrictions and constraints surrounding the design, weight, & build materials of the bikes used to race. Otherwise you have a situation whereby teams with the biggest budgets, the best design teams and craftsmen are winning the bike races...it should be the best / strongest / smartest riders winning.....not the bike having such an influence on the outcome!

While I agree with the sentiment, the reality is that the teams with the biggest budgets for developing cycling kit (e.g. British Cycling on the track) have been dominating. Now that's a correlation, not a causation of course, but there is clearly a relationship that exists despite the rules.

The fact that there are rules and restrictions on equipment doesn't mean that the investment by those that can afford it has been reduced and the equipment playing field is levelled.

If anything the investment is ramped up so much by those with ridiculous resources because it tips the advantage to those that can afford to do the research needed to find all the small things.

e.g. let's say (hypothetically) TT bike set ups were banned, and all TTs are now to be conducted on mass start compliant bikes. You don't think there would be even greater investment in maxing out all the possible aero gains attainable within the mass start bike regulations? Of course there would, and the big budgets will move to giving those an advantage.

Try to buy a BC track bike. After you've spent your 200,000 pounds and waited 2 years for delivery, let me know what it's like to ride. That's the rule that needs fixing. Make the tech used in any race widely available to anyone and at realistic prices. In that manner any team/rider that wants the best can buy it now.

As for pros, well they are mobile billboards and ride what they are required to, not what's best.

 

[StinkFist]

Ride "quality" is primarily a function of tyre pressure (and bike fit obviously).


Are you saying that a seasoned Pro, or perhaps a guy / girl who has been riding for more 35years on many different frame materials (Steel, Alu, Ti, Carbon or a combination of) wouldn't be able to distinguish which particular Frame Material they were riding on in a Blind Test?
That it comes down to "Fit"& "Tyre Pressure"?? Surely not
I find my Steel Fork (Commuter) easily distinguishable over my Carbon Fork (Road Bike).

Why do certain Pro riders refuse to ride or use the sponsored products and have certain elements of their rig using their preferred product and re-badge it to keep the sponsors happy?
Eddy Mercyx and Pegoretti were very popular frame builders for many Pro's back in the day..... many riding re-badged version of their bikes, once again to keep sponsors happy.
Was this because they were getting custom made frames with Spec's of their choice??

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

Ride "quality" is primarily a function of tyre pressure (and bike fit obviously).


Are you saying that a seasoned Pro, or perhaps a guy / girl who has been riding for more 35years on many different frame materials (Steel, Alu, Ti, Carbon or a combination of) wouldn't be able to distinguish which particular Frame Material they were riding on in a Blind Test?
That it comes down to "Fit"& "Tyre Pressure"?? Surely not
I find my Steel Fork (Commuter) easily distinguishable over my Carbon Fork (Road Bike).

Why do certain Pro riders refuse to ride or use the sponsored products and have certain elements of their rig using their preferred product and re-badge it to keep the sponsors happy?
Eddy Mercyx and Pegoretti were very popular frame builders for many Pro's back in the day..... many riding re-badged version of their bikes, once again to keep sponsors happy.
Was this because they were getting custom made frames with Spec's of their choice??

Whenever tests have been conducted that have blinded riders to the bike they are on, yes, most find making such distinctions very difficult. Blinding the rider to the machine isn't easy (requires all sorts of covers and of course the touch points need not to give the bike away) but it is doable. e.g. Zipp and Cervelo did exactly this with professional riders. Riders had pre-conceived ideas about the suitability of certain wheels and frames for cobbled classics. When blinded to the equipment however, their pre-conceived notions were blow away. What mattered was tyre pressure.

Obviously if a bike/frame is of different dimensions and a different bike fit is used, then it will feel different. I'm talking about the same bike fit.

Such sensations are mostly just confirmation bias (and is why the nonsense written by many bike reviewers makes me laugh).

 

[StinkFist]

Well, thats very interesting indeed!

Thanks for taking the time to write that out and reply.
I'm going to pay more attention to my Tyre Pressure from now on -

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

I wonder if it was offered to Nibali or Contador? Surely saving energy over 3 weeks is as important as winning a sprint?

Or maybe... they're not impressed (as both Nibs and AC use mech shifting).

All of Astana use mechanical Campagnolo...it's a sponsorship gig, not a personal preference. Contador chooses to use mechanical DA..I think since he got burned by Scam, he takes no chances.

 

[StinkFist]

Contador chooses to use mechanical DA..I think since he got burned by Scam, he takes no chances.

Financially or poor quality product?

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Contador chooses to use mechanical DA..I think since he got burned by Scam, he takes no chances.

Financially or poor quality product?

If you have to buy it, both.

 

[StinkFist]

Well, we know AC doesn't need to buy his Groupset.

SRAM seems to be such a polarising product on the Road.....I know plenty of MTBers who love it....and a few Roadies also.

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

I love the new aero bikes. Sagan has already won on the Specialized.

Sagan could have won riding an old woman with wheels strapped to her face,,,
Aero smero ,,,its all about selling the latest model for the fat geezer stack spacer crowd.

Says the weight weinie.......

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

I love the new aero bikes. Sagan has already won on the Specialized.

Sagan could have won riding an old woman with wheels strapped to her face,,,
Aero smero ,,,its all about selling the latest model for the fat geezer stack spacer crowd.

Says the weight weinie.......

I have RJW on ignore, so didn't see his comment intially, but your reply is priceless! You win the internets for today, sir.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Well, we know AC doesn't need to buy his Groupset.

SRAM seems to be such a polarising product on the Road.....I know plenty of MTBers who love it....and a few Roadies also.

Sram MTB stuff is expensive (the high end stuff ridiculously so) and still not as good as Shimano but it's nowhere near as bad as their road stuff, it does the job fine. Apart from Avid brakes, if you have those you'd be better off with a coaster brake. The new Guides just about perform as well as Shimano, but not quite.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

I love the new aero bikes. Sagan has already won on the Specialized.

Sagan could have won riding an old woman with wheels strapped to her face,,,
Aero smero ,,,its all about selling the latest model for the fat geezer stack spacer crowd.

Says the weight weinie.......

What's your problem? Why do I bother you so much?
I enjoy my life, obviously your's must be pretty crap if all you can do is worry about what I post.

Seems to a few jealous heads out there. all the way to the bank, enjoy

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

I love the new aero bikes. Sagan has already won on the Specialized.

Sagan could have won riding an old woman with wheels strapped to her face,,,
Aero smero ,,,its all about selling the latest model for the fat geezer stack spacer crowd.

Says the weight weinie.......

I have RJW on ignore, so didn't see his comment intially, but your reply is priceless! You win the internets for today, sir.

He has put me on ignore because I ride a weight weenie bike

 

[StinkFist]

Re: Re:

Well, we know AC doesn't need to buy his Groupset.

SRAM seems to be such a polarising product on the Road.....I know plenty of MTBers who love it....and a few Roadies also.

Sram MTB stuff is expensive (the high end stuff ridiculously so) and still not as good as Shimano but it's nowhere near as bad as their road stuff, it does the job fine. Apart from Avid brakes, if you have those you'd be better off with a coaster brake. The new Guides just about perform as well as Shimano, but not quite.

Never used it.
Started on Campy, went to Ultegra, then back to Campy (record), now on DA 11spd.

MTB - I've always only had Shimano XT. Nothing for me to complain about there

 

[richwagmn]

Re: Re:

I wonder if it was offered to Nibali or Contador? Surely saving energy over 3 weeks is as important as winning a sprint?

Or maybe... they're not impressed (as both Nibs and AC use mech shifting).

They are shielded from the wind behind teammates most of the time,
the easiest rides in the peloton "except the climbing"
Aero bike would be pointless.

Say what? Do you ride with a power meter. When I'm drafting, mine doesn't read 0 watts. What does yours read?

Using less power means saving energy or being able to go faster. Both are important.

Still doesn't answer why Nibs or AC aren't on one.

 

[richwagmn]

Scott thought that little bit of exposed cable is ok.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/scott-launches-revamped-foil-44613/

Sadly the rear brake has migrated to under the chain stay.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Say what? Do you ride with a power meter. When I'm drafting, mine doesn't read 0 watts. What does yours read?

Using less power means saving energy or being able to go faster. Both are important.

Yep

Still doesn't answer why Nibs or AC aren't on one.

Pros rarely ride what's optimal for them. It's not their job.

They are mobile billboards and ride what their sponsor needs market exposure for.

And it's pretty common for many riders including pros to use a less than rational approach to many choices, including equipment. Pre-conceived biases, motivated reasoning and other logical fallacies abound. It's pretty normal and human nature and is why nonsense products in many walks of life successfully make billions of dollars in sales and why celebrity endorsement is a successful marketing strategy, irrespective of the quality or efficacy of a product.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

I wonder if it was offered to Nibali or Contador? Surely saving energy over 3 weeks is as important as winning a sprint?

Or maybe... they're not impressed (as both Nibs and AC use mech shifting).

They are shielded from the wind behind teammates most of the time,
the easiest rides in the peloton "except the climbing"
Aero bike would be pointless.

Say what? Do you ride with a power meter. When I'm drafting, mine doesn't read 0 watts. What does yours read?

Using less power means saving energy or being able to go faster. Both are important.

Still doesn't answer why Nibs or AC aren't on one.

The reason they don't use electric is because they do not trust it. Teams have had issues with electric.
They just keep risk to minimum.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

Well, we know AC doesn't need to buy his Groupset.

SRAM seems to be such a polarising product on the Road.....I know plenty of MTBers who love it....and a few Roadies also.

X9 and on up does work well but in comparison to the like groups like SLX, XT and certainly XTR, it really pales in comparison. sram is cheap looking, lots of plastic, not nearly as reliable. As for spam road stuff, it really is crappy.
Look at it wrong and it's stops working. See Alan McCormick's interview about his sponsored stuff on Pro's Closet.

sram is in deep financial trouble as well. 3 HUGE recalls, their Euro sponsorship has shrunk to one pro team(Ag2r), Campagnolo, in spite of being 1/6th the size, sponsor more. Plus their insistence on 'fads', that they start. Hydraulic road calipers, 1 by stuff(I guess if you can't get a front der to work, remove it), with silly crap like 11-40 cogsets..with the expected HUGE gaps. Wireless road group, that well, just doesn't quite work. Plus wonky shifting(both levers at the same time to put on or off big ring, RH lever to lower gear, left hand to higher..huh??)...their 'warranty anything for any reason at anytime', is over as well. They are on my death list..along with zipp...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

Scott thought that little bit of exposed cable is ok.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/scott-launches-revamped-foil-44613/

Sadly the rear brake has migrated to under the chain stay.

Latest trek Madone, the rear brake is back to where it belongs..but still 2 bolt, direct mount.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Scott thought that little bit of exposed cable is ok.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/scott-launches-revamped-foil-44613/

Sadly the rear brake has migrated to under the chain stay.

Latest trek Madone, the rear brake is back to where it belongs..but still 2 bolt, direct mount.

I really hated the brake near the BB. I never understood it. It looks good on these treks though.
Photos from a few years ago ,,,,treks being tested no paint just raw my kind of bikes...

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/11/02/in-pictures-radioshack-field-test-new-trek-frames

 

[StinkFist]

^^


Not sure if I like the raw carbon look.....it looks dirty!
Give me nude brushed Ti any day.