AFLD's Pierre Bordry Comments on Doping at Tour

[Bala Verde]

Because Hematide is different, the antibodies that attack the old EPO drugs don't attack Hematide. But, since the EPO doping test is based upon antibody detection, Hematide would likely not be picked up in the current EPO test.

However, because the drug acts like EPO to boost RBC's, the biological passport still should pick up aberrant values. Unless one is microdosing year round...

The idea that Hematide can be picked up by the blood passport is confirmed by Frans Delbeke, Head WADA-Lab in Ghent, in a background article in "het Nieuwsblad".

Wie hematide krijgt ingespoten, heeft 43 dagen lang een verhoogd gehalte aan hemoglobine (een eiwit waarmee rode bloedcellen zijn gevuld) en reticulocyten (jonge rode bloedcellen).

Anyone who injects Hematide, will have increased Hemoglobine and Reticulocytes values, for 43 days. That'll show up in the blood passport

He's also gloating about the fact that Hematide has a rather long 'break down' period (word?), ie it's traceable for a longer amount of time (compared to for example, growth hormone's detectability of only 6 hrs.)

Other interesting observations in the article are:

1) That anti-doping organisations are already looking ahead, and try to find products, even some that are only in its development or clinical test stages, or before the neter the market, that have potential performance enhancing effects, in order for them to find ways to detect it and develop tests. They admit they won't be able to find everything, but the 'net is closing faster' ie they are quicker to react to doping violations.

2) They share information internationally, ie Aicar was already known to the anti-doping organisations.

3) A whole range of succesors for EPO (epo, nesp, cera, hematide) is awaiting its introduction. Currently they are being tested on animals. Some of those products which will be taken orally.

Background article in dutch

 

[Danilot]

He's also gloating about the fact that Hematide has a rather long 'break down' period (word?), ie it's traceable for a longer amount of time (compared to for example, growth hormone's detectability of only 6 hrs.)

I think you mean "half-life" (the time it takes for 50% of the substance to degrade). In rats and monkeys, the half-life of Hematide varies between 30 and 92 hours. In humans, it is predicted that this half-life allows for Hematide to be used "only" once every three to four weeks.

On the other side, CERA has a half-life of about 135 hours in humans, so in theory it should be detectable for a longer time than Hematide.

 

[TRDean]

I think you mean "half-life" (the time it takes for 50% of the substance to degrade). In rats and monkeys, the half-life of Hematide varies between 30 and 92 hours. In humans, it is predicted that this half-life allows for Hematide to be used "only" once every three to four weeks.

On the other side, CERA has a half-life of about 135 hours in humans, so in theory it should be detectable for a longer time than Hematide.

Actually, it is not product or molecule degradation in the pure sense..it is how long it takes the body to clear it from the system...at least I think.

 

[Cobblestones]

I think this is the most important thread right now on this forum. There has also been an article in the German journal Spiegel about it (which had daily and very level-headed TdF coverage).

If you remember, we discussed in June the conundrum that riders are still performing at levels of 1990's and early 2000's (the darkest period of cycling) while hematocrit levels have come down to more normal value in the mid-lower 40s. At that time, I was arguing that riders might be using HBOCs or PFCEs. BigBoat was suggesting an elaborate scheme of transfusions, blood letting, dilution and whatnot. Blackcat came up with the idea of increasing the efficiency of oxygen uptake. Now it seems like blackcat was on the right track. But let me step back for a moment.

A lot of blood manipulation should be detectable with the blood passport (which is basically a more sophisticated approach for setting limits on biological parameters than the old 50% crit threshold). The passport itself has not yet been used to convict riders for doping. What has happened is that the 50% rule has been invoked to ban riders from races (without it becoming a doping infraction) and that the passport has helped to single out riders for targeted testing (which has then sometimes resulted in non-negatives and doping convictions). Still, all convictions have come either from non-negative tests, or from circumstantial evidence such as affiliation with doping networks such as OP or the Vienna lab. At this point, I think the blood passport is at best a partial success. I think it could be used more aggressively by applying it in the same way as the 50% rule, i.e., by banning riders from competing for medical reasons without making it an actual doping conviction.

In terms of doping tests, we know that mostly, the labs are years behind the athletes. Only in the case of CERA, where the structure of the molecule was communicated to anti-doping labs such that tests could be developed faster than usual, this wasn't the case. Different types of EPO and/or CERA molecules require different tests. The labs do good work but will always be behind (hence the blood passport and the idea of retroactive testing of up to 5 years).

Hematide is different enough from any EPO/CERA product that completely different tests have to be employed. Now the use of hematide (at least in large doses) should be obvious on the blood passport. However, since the passport has neither been used for doping convictions nor for banning riders from competing, and since there's no test for hematide, it's a free for all. Still, because the crit levels are nowhere near 50% it alone cannot explain the current level of performance.

What I find more interesting in this respect is AICAR. First of all it is a substance which is naturally occurring in the human body. So, just as testosterone, the presence of AICAR is no indication of doping. Only an increase of AICAR above a certain threshold would be. At present, I think there is no such threshold defined (although AICAR is on the list of banned substances and there seems to be a test for it). This means that even if it's found in testing, it might not be clear whether one can get a doping conviction or not (at least it would give Vrijman a new hatchet job to do).

It gets even more interesting when we look at how AICAR (aminoimidazole carboxamide ribonucleotide) works. On the WADA list, it says:

... PPARdelta-AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) axis agonists (e.g. AICAR) are prohibited.

which doesn't really say much at all.

Let me first give a few WIKI links of relevance.
1.) PPAR
2.) AICAR
3.) AMP-activated protein kinase or AMKP
the last one being the most relevant one. In the simplest terms, AICAR works by latching on to PPARdelta (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta) which leads in the end to production of AMP-activated protein kinase. So, what we really should be looking at, is the effect of AMPK (hence the third link).

From that link:

Many biochemical adaptations of skeletal muscle that take place during a single bout of exercise or an extended duration of training, such as increased mitochondrial biogenesis and capacity [11][12], increased muscle glycogen[13], and an increase in enzymes which specialize in glucose uptake in cells such as GLUT4 and hexokinase II [14][15][13] are thought to be mediated in part by AMPK when it is activated (2).[16] Additionally, recent discoveries can conceivably suggest a direct AMPK role in increasing blood supply to exercised/trained muscle cells by stimulating and stabilizing both vasculogenesis and angiogenesis.[17] Taken together, these adaptations most likely transpire as a result of both temporary and maintained increases in AMPK activity brought about by increases in the AMP:ATP ratio during single bouts of exercise and long-term training.
During a single acute exercise bout, AMPK allows the contracting muscle cells to adapt to the energy challenges by increasing expression of hexokinase II[13], translocation of GLUT4 to the plasma membrane [9][18][19][20] for glucose uptake, and by stimulating glycolysis.[21] If bouts of exercise continue through a long-term training regimen, AMPK and other signals will facilitate contracting muscle adaptations by escorting muscle cell activity to a metabolic transition resulting in an oxidative dependent approach to energy metabolism as opposed to a glycolytic approach. AMPK accomplishes this transition to the oxidative mode of metabolism by upregulating and activating oxidative enzymes such as GLUT4, hexokinase II, PPARalpha, PGC-1, UCP-3, cytochrome C and TFAM (2).[15][13][22][23][24]

and BINGO.

Moreover, I found this gem:

One of the effects of exercise is an increase in fatty acid metabolism, which provides more energy for the cell. One of the key pathways in AMPK’s regulation of fatty acid oxidation is the phosphorylation and inactivation of acetyl-CoA carboxylase.[17] Acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC) converts acetyl-CoA to malonyl-CoA, an inhibitor of carnitine parmitoyltransferase 1 (CPT-1). CPT-1 transports fatty acids into the mitochondria for oxidation. Inactivation of ACC, therefore, results in increased fatty acid transport and subsequent oxidation. It is also thought that the decrease in malonyl-CoA occurs as a result of malonyl-CoA decarboxylase (MCD), which may be regulated by AMPK.[11] MCD is an antagonist to ACC, decarboxylating malonyl-CoA to acetyl-CoA, resulting in decreased malonyl-CoA and increased CPT-1 and fatty acid oxidation.

and we have a second BINGO, because I suspect that we have found the reason for the somewhat mysterious weight loss (in particular the loss of any body fat) by some riders. How much did Wiggo lose again? Also, when you look at photos of LA, his subcutaneous fat layer is practically nonexistent. It's pretty clear now from where the riders get their 'concentration camp' look.

It all really makes sense now.

Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post, but I think I have now a fairly good idea what is going one, and I wanted to share my moment of enlightenment with you guys.

 

[Bala Verde]

... we have a second BINGO, because I suspect that we have found the reason for the somewhat mysterious weight loss (in particular the loss of any body fat) by some riders. How much did Wiggo lose again? Also, when you look at photos of LA, his subcutaneous fat layer is practically nonexistent. It's pretty clear now from where the riders get their 'concentration camp' look.

It all really makes sense now.
.

Very interesting Cobblestones!

Since it - if I understand the medical jargon correctly - impacts on the muscles(cells) as in opposition to blood doping, which affects the delivery of oxygen, is there any information how it interacts with/impacts on/favours 'fast' or 'slow' twitch muscle fibres?

Would it for example make you less explosive?

An addition about the costs involved, which seem to be a little steeper than what I presented before, if my calculations are correct, based on the following quote retrieved HERE

For comparative analysis only, this writer conducted a patent search on AICAR. The results included a recommended dosage range of 5 mg. to 100 mg. / per kg / per day, taken 3 times a week, for the purpose of studying metabolic disease or insulin resistance in humans.

For a 140 pound person, this equates to an AICAR dosage of 315 to 3150 mg. a day.

A cursory search for the chemical shows that lab-quality AICAR is sold for approximately $100 per a 44 mg vile.

3150mg/44mg viles= 71.59 * $100= $7159 per day.

If, following instructions above, it is necesarry to use it 3 times per week to have a significant result (which is the great unknown, how often does one need to use it for the effects to last throughout a Tour), that would set you back $21.477 per week.

I think Kohl spent $100.000 on doping in a year, if I am correct...

 

[Cobblestones]

Very interesting Cobblestones!

Since it - if I understand the medical jargon correctly - impacts on the muscles(cells) as in opposition to blood doping, which affects the delivery of oxygen, is there any information how it interacts with/impacts on/favours 'fast' or 'slow' twitch muscle fibres?

Would it for example make you less explosive?

An addition about the costs involved, which seem to be a little steeper than what I presented before, if my calculations are correct, based on the following quote retrieved HERE

3150mg/44mg viles= 71.59 * $100= $7159 per day.

If, following instructions above, it is necesarry to use it 3 times per week to have a significant result (which is the great unknown, how often does one need to use it for the effects to last throughout a Tour), that would set you back $21.477 per week.

I think Kohl spent $100.000 on doping in a year, if I am correct...

Precisely. It will impact the muscles by favoring the slow, more effective fat-burning fibers compared to the fast, less effective glucose burning ones. Now fast and slow twitch are relative here and even 'slow' in terms of muscle response is fast compared to the time scales (seconds or tens of seconds) for an attack in cycling.

However, the fast twitch muscles are the ones used for anaerobe bursts. So by favoring slow twitch muscles and efficiency, the rider loses explosiveness. Link is here. In essence it could transform an explosive climber with low stamina into a power climber (and it would certainly help with the TT).

I don't know about the price tag. I would think the physiological change from fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscles is at least semi-permanent. The other effects of AICAR might be more short lived. I don't know for how long you would have to take it and what dosage. As I understand it, it is in a clinical trial phase which means there is no FDA approved version in any country.

I guess it depends how lucky you feel and if you're willing (to save money), to compromise on pharmaceutical quality. The production will cost a certain amount. The purification will be another chunk. Then you might want to do an analysis of the stuff to see what else is in there and if anything of that might be detrimental to your health. You can probably shave off the total by cutting corners in the purification and analysis part. Remember that if at all, it is sold as lab chemical, not FDA approved medication anyway. I don't think that the 'clinical trial version' of the drug is for sale at all.

 

[Cobber]

As to attaining drugs in trials, there are three things to consider. First is the drug bust that recently happened in eastern Europe that implicated several medical professionals, including physicians and administrators. Second, three years ago Thomas Springstien was very likely able to attain Repoxygen. Third, it's pretty likely there is an underground black market if you will, of manufactured pharmaceuticals made in Russia and China. I realize this sounds like it borders on conspiracy talk, and I don't think it's widespread, but I do think it exists. There is a huge market for this stuff, huge. So it doesn't surprise me that the drugs are leaking out, or being re-engineered, specifically for athletics.

In my experience (having been involved in some clinical trials for antiviral drugs), it would be extremely unlikely that drugs from clinical trials could be obtained for an athletes use. Drug trials are usually separated into 3 phases. 1st - small scale safety trial, 2nd-medium scale dosing trial, 3rd large scale efficacy trial. During all phases the drug is blinded with a placebo, and only a few people know the identity of individual pills. Thus, if a doctor wanted to enrol an athlete into a clinical trial, he would not know if the athlete was receiving the drug or a placebo. However, once a drug makes it to phase 3 a doctor can petition the FDA to use a trial drug in special cases, such as when existing medications are not working but there is a chance that the trial drug might work (eg. chemotherapy for certain types of cancers). Therefore, other than a case of a doctor fabricating a special case for a non-existent patient, the only way for someone to obtain a trial drug in clinical development, to my knowledge, would be to obtain it directly, and knowingly, from the pharma company.

 

[Cobber]

As I understand it, it is in a clinical trial phase which means there is no FDA approved version in any country.

Once a drug makes it to clinical trials there is already an established manufacturing process and the pharma company would have bucket loads of medical quality drug. Because phase 3 trials are so expensive, once the drug goes through phase 2, dosing has been figured out and the company has a pretty good idea that it will pass phase 3 and be FDA approved. However, as I said in my post above, the only real way to get access to a drug would be through the pharma compnay itself. This would be next to impossible for the average Joe. However, it might be possible for a high profile athlete with inside ties to company heirarchy to be able to access a drug "under the table". In my lab, we have used "research grade" drugs in clinical trials and the only way we could get them is by having the "Chief Scientific Officer" signing off on them.

 

[Cobblestones]

Once a drug makes it to clinical trials there is already an established manufacturing process and the pharma company would have bucket loads of medical quality drug. Because phase 3 trials are so expensive, once the drug goes through phase 2, dosing has been figured out and the company has a pretty good idea that it will pass phase 3 and be FDA approved. However, as I said in my post above, the only real way to get access to a drug would be through the pharma compnay itself. This would be next to impossible for the average Joe. However, it might be possible for a high profile athlete with inside ties to company heirarchy to be able to access a drug "under the table". In my lab, we have used "research grade" drugs in clinical trials and the only way we could get them is by having the "Chief Scientific Officer" signing off on them.

That's really what I wanted to say. At the point of clinical trials the drug will not be available in any pharmacy in any country. No bogus prescription will help (with the exception you have mentioned).

On the other hand, you might get lab grade samples of the drug from the company for purposes other than human consumption. Alternatively, if the production process is known, anybody could give it a shot. There's plenty of shady places which might have the know-how, but not the patent rights. They might be tempted to make a few fast bucks out of it.

 

[Oldman]

Fat loss & pharma

and we have a second BINGO, because I suspect that we have found the reason for the somewhat mysterious weight loss (in particular the loss of any body fat) by some riders. How much did Wiggo lose again? Also, when you look at photos of LA, his subcutaneous fat layer is practically nonexistent. It's pretty clear now from where the riders get their 'concentration camp' look.

Got a couple of quick points-I started out 15 lbs heavier than "hot" season racing weight today. My biggest change was having both collarbones broken separately and continuing training. The atrophy weight loss allowed for spectacular climbing improvement. Once I noted that; I quit upper body work earlier to prepare for hillier stage races-it worked. I also lose an additional 2-3% weight when it get above 80 degrees and look gaunt. You don't need drugs to end up that way but the performance peak is 30+days before chronic fatigue will set in.

On the Clinical trial issue-there were several riders involved with an American pro team that worked in the cancer and heart disease research industry. One of them started having phenomenal Master's racing performances. So phenomenal that really seriously gifted former pro's on the same team began to distance themselves because they sensed something was up. Several years later the same individual was outside the industry; gained a bit of weight and never performed at that level again.

Not to say that he was a conduit but the appearances were there. Given that the Pharm industry has not catagorically agreed to putting detection markers in their drugs pits them against those trying to rid the sport of the taint. Free agents within those resistant companies would be hard to control.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

In my experience (having been involved in some clinical trials for antiviral drugs), it would be extremely unlikely that drugs from clinical trials could be obtained for an athletes use. Drug trials are usually separated into 3 phases. 1st - small scale safety trial, 2nd-medium scale dosing trial, 3rd large scale efficacy trial. During all phases the drug is blinded with a placebo, and only a few people know the identity of individual pills. Thus, if a doctor wanted to enrol an athlete into a clinical trial, he would not know if the athlete was receiving the drug or a placebo. However, once a drug makes it to phase 3 a doctor can petition the FDA to use a trial drug in special cases, such as when existing medications are not working but there is a chance that the trial drug might work (eg. chemotherapy for certain types of cancers). Therefore, other than a case of a doctor fabricating a special case for a non-existent patient, the only way for someone to obtain a trial drug in clinical development, to my knowledge, would be to obtain it directly, and knowingly, from the pharma company.

Hmmmm...I thought it was just like in the movie Half Baked w/ Dave Chappelle(sp?)...get a form from the scientist, forge it, and then the goods are yours?

All joking aside, during clinical trials are names kept confidential during the process? I would also assume that they must test on perfectly healthy people as well, do you know? Sorry if this was already mentioned somewhere, but could you please respond?

 

[Cobber]

Hmmmm...I thought it was just like in the movie Half Baked w/ Dave Chappelle(sp?)...get a form from the scientist, forge it, and then the goods are yours?

All joking aside, during clinical trials are names kept confidential during the process? I would also assume that they must test on perfectly healthy people as well, do you know? Sorry if this was already mentioned somewhere, but could you please respond?

Phase 1 (safety) is an healthy volunteers. Phase 2, where effective dosing is determined is on patients, since you need a readout specific to the disease the drug is designed to treat. Phase 3 is also on patients.

You are right regarding confidentiality. For the trials I have been involved in, we receive the drug (or placebo) in an identical package for each patient, and I have no idea if a particular patient receives the drug or the placebo. We collect samples and send them to a lab, who also has no idea who got what, for independent analysis. At the end of the trial, all data is analysed by the pharma company and it is only at this stage, after the data has been collected and analysed, that the identity of which patient got what is revealed.

 

[Cobber]

That's really what I wanted to say. At the point of clinical trials the drug will not be available in any pharmacy in any country. No bogus prescription will help (with the exception you have mentioned).

On the other hand, you might get lab grade samples of the drug from the company for purposes other than human consumption. Alternatively, if the production process is known, anybody could give it a shot. There's plenty of shady places which might have the know-how, but not the patent rights. They might be tempted to make a few fast bucks out of it.

The lab grade samples are usually in very small amounts, and it would be tough to get enough to treat someone. For example, for one drug I am using I got 1 gram from the drug company, which is enough for hundreds of experiments. The clinical dose for this drug was 0.6g/day. Thus, if I was to use my research grade drug on a patient, there wouldn't be enough for 2 doses!

I don't know anything about black market manufacturing. However, it should be perfectly feasible. Once a drug is in clinical trials, and even well before, the structure is known and, theoretically, someone could figure out a manufacturing process or get from the patent.

Edit: *braces himself as he goes to visit the "professional road racing" forum again.*

 

[laura.weislo]

)(snip)
In the simplest terms, AICAR works by latching on to PPARdelta (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta) which leads in the end to production of AMP-activated protein kinase. So, what we really should be looking at, is the effect of AMPK (hence the third link).

If you go back and read the LA Times article on AICAR, the scientists also studied a PPARd booster known as GW1516, a GlaxoSmithKline cholesterol drug prospect.

"In sedentary mice, the drug had no effect on endurance. Only when the drug was combined with exercise did it give the mice an advantage. After five weeks of training, mice that got the drug were able to run for an average of three hours and 24 minutes, a 68% improvement over mice that received only training.

When the researchers dissected the test mice, they found that the number of high-efficiency muscle fibers had increased 29%. "That's a huge increase," Evans said. "That's the kind of stuff that Lance Armstrong and endurance athletes aim for."

Wonder how much GW1516 costs per dose?

 

[elapid]

Edit: *braces himself as he goes to visit the "professional road racing" forum again.*

Yep - it's like a bad car crash. You cannot look away, but regret it when you do look. Also like trench warfare - two sides dug in and not giving an inch, but still battling regardless day in and day out over the same old crap in the vain hope that the other side will surrender.

The Clinical forum is much more interesting - intelligent people discussing drugs and training in sport for the most part intelligently and the ability to learn new information.

Now back to the Professional Road Racing forum ...

 

[Krebs cycle]

the last one being the most relevant one. In the simplest terms, AICAR works by latching on to PPARdelta (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta) which leads in the end to production of AMP-activated protein kinase. So, what we really should be looking at, is the effect of AMPK (hence the third link).

Good stuff cobblestones. Now read this....

J Appl Physiol. 2009 Mar;106(3):929-34. Epub 2008 Dec 26

Brief intense interval exercise activates AMPK and p38 MAPK signaling and increases the expression of PGC-1alpha in human skeletal muscle.Gibala MJ, McGee SL, Garnham AP, Howlett KF, Snow RJ, Hargreaves M.
Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. gibalam@mcmaster.ca

From a cell signaling perspective, short-duration intense muscular work is typically associated with resistance training and linked to pathways that stimulate growth. However, brief repeated sessions of sprint or high-intensity interval exercise induce rapid phenotypic changes that resemble traditional endurance training. We tested the hypothesis that an acute session of intense intermittent cycle exercise would activate signaling cascades linked to mitochondrial biogenesis in human skeletal muscle. Biopsies (vastus lateralis) were obtained from six young men who performed four 30-s "all out" exercise bouts interspersed with 4 min of rest (<80 kJ total work). Phosphorylation of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK; subunits alpha1 and alpha2) and the p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) was higher (P <or= 0.05) immediately after bout 4 vs. preexercise. Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator-1alpha (PGC-1alpha) mRNA was increased approximately twofold above rest after 3 h of recovery (P <or= 0.05); however, PGC-1alpha protein content was unchanged. In contrast, phosphorylation of protein kinase B/Akt (Thr(308) and Ser(473)) tended to decrease, and downstream targets linked to hypertrophy (p70 ribosomal S6 kinase and 4E binding protein 1) were unchanged after exercise and recovery. We conclude that signaling through AMPK and p38 MAPK to PGC-1alpha may explain in part the metabolic remodeling induced by low-volume intense interval exercise, including mitochondrial biogenesis and an increased capacity for glucose and fatty acid oxidation.

The bit in bold at the bottom there IS the performance enhancing effect. This, in concert with enhanced oxygen delivery via autologous blood doping or microdose EPO is a very powerful combination.

I wonder if Dr Garnham (in the author list there) has improved his muscle biopsy skills... he had a nickname as "The Butcher" a few years back lol

 

[Bala Verde]

Wonder how much GW1516 costs per dose?

Did some quick research (I am just a layman, no chemist) and I found the following website "Cayman Europe" which is "a leading provider of high-purity, active Fatty Acid Binding Proteins"

The CAS no for AICAR I used: 2627-69-2

The results are here, including pricing

Pricing:
Size Price
5 mg €11.00
10 mg €21.00
50 mg €88.00
100 mg €153.00

The CAS no for GW 501516 was: 317318-70-0

And here are the results for GW 501516

Pricing
Size Price
1 mg €115.00
5 mg €515.00
10 mg €914.00
50 mg €3,999.00

Again, I do not have or claim expertise in this matter, so I don't know if it is correct...

 

[fishtacos]

I don't know anything about black market manufacturing. However, it should be perfectly feasible. Once a drug is in clinical trials, and even well before, the structure is known and, theoretically, someone could figure out a manufacturing process or get from the patent.

My background includes overseeing a lot of manufacturing in Asia, and I would be VERY surprised if there wasn't significant production of drugs there (and in Eastern Europe) that are only in clinical trials in U.S./Western Europe. Everything else is boot-legged there, so why not pharmaceuticals?

Given the Chinese desire to be at the forefront of athletics, I would be also be very surprised if they were not running secret research labs complete with secret doctorates in doping, as were the Soviet Bloc states (as originally exposed by good ole' Werner Franke). Especially with the numbers of ex-Eastern Bloc coaches who have gone to China to coach their Olympic teams.

Of course, I don't know this for certain, so it would be interesting to hear from someone who knows whether riders or doctors are getting product from Asian or Eastern European sources, and if they're getting the state of the art products or not. Perhaps there are enough middlemen that no one knows where it's coming from, though.

Anyway, just a thought. Nice work on this thread and some of the others in having a rational and interesting discussion of doping - I feel like I've learned quite a bit.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think this is the most important thread right now on this forum.

I agree (and not because I started the thread!). There are some great posts here, great info.

I'd sit and write more like I usually do, but it was 109 degrees here today, and sitting at the computer for more than a few minutes is too damned hot.

 

[slcbiker]

I'd say this might be the most interesting thread. I'd hate to call it the most important, as that means we think what people might be on is more important than the race they are riding, or in Contador's case, where he's going next year.

I'm hardly an expert on drug manufacture. Clearly Barry Bonds and others were able to fund the customization of a steroid that was undetectable. My understanding is the steroids were relatively easy to tweak, don't know how well that goes for some of these other drugs. And Bonds clearly made significantly more money than any cyclist other than Armstrong. Don't know how possible it would be for the mid-level guys to buy significant quantities of exotic stuff. Maybe if it's made in China. But I do know that these companies have pretty high security around these expensive drugs. They spend alot of money on developing them, and plan on making alot of money off them. I'd imagine they go to pretty good lengths not to have them walk out the door to China.

 

[Oldman]

Alpe is too close

I agree (and not because I started the thread!). There are some great posts here, great info.

I'd sit and write more like I usually do, but it was 109 degrees here today, and sitting at the computer for more than a few minutes is too damned hot.

It was 108 in Bellevue and 103 in Kirkland. We mostly agree and if you're on my team you need to train and study drugs much, much less. We can all make ourselves insane thinking why someone else has the edge. See you this weekend in Arlington and see what you do with your legs and knowledge.

 

[Oldman]

My background includes overseeing a lot of manufacturing in Asia, and I would be VERY surprised if there wasn't significant production of drugs there (and in Eastern Europe) that are only in clinical trials in U.S./Western Europe. Everything else is boot-legged there, so why not pharmaceuticals?

Given the Chinese desire to be at the forefront of athletics, I would be also be very surprised if they were not running secret research labs complete with secret doctorates in doping, as were the Soviet Bloc states (as originally exposed by good ole' Werner Franke). Especially with the numbers of ex-Eastern Bloc coaches who have gone to China to coach their Olympic teams.

Of course, I don't know this for certain, so it would be interesting to hear from someone who knows whether riders or doctors are getting product from Asian or Eastern European sources, and if they're getting the state of the art products or not. Perhaps there are enough middlemen that no one knows where it's coming from, though.

Anyway, just a thought. Nice work on this thread and some of the others in having a rational and interesting discussion of doping - I feel like I've learned quite a bit.

Alot of those coaches ended up in Australia.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It was 108 in Bellevue and 103 in Kirkland. We mostly agree and if you're on my team you need to train and study drugs much, much less. We can all make ourselves insane thinking why someone else has the edge. See you this weekend in Arlington and see what you do with your legs and knowledge.

What's in Arlington? A race? You know I'm old, fat and slow, and stopped racing 20 years ago, right?

Or are you implying that I'm (or was?) a doper?

True that too much concentration on doping can vex the mind. This is why I spend a lot of time in the other forums as well, and you'll see me much more in the Road Racing section, as soon as the three-week posters all bail.

Cheers.

 

[Oldman]

What's in Arlington? A race? You know I'm old, fat and slow, and stopped racing 20 years ago, right?

Or are you implying that I'm (or was?) a doper?

True that too much concentration on doping can vex the mind. This is why I spend a lot of time in the other forums as well, and you'll see me much more in the Road Racing section, as soon as the three-week posters all bail.

Cheers.

Yeah a small local race this weekend. Definitely not implying anything and didn't know you stopped racing, but now know you are admittedly not at your desired fitness. I'm old but the spirit is still willing.
I've been discussing much of the enhancement issues, coaching, business and ethics with the developing and successful riders of our area since '86. I've learned much but am always thrilled how a new threshold can be achieved apart from doping or excessive coaching analysis. The power of will is incredible and cycling is a great venue to show that potential.

 

[Cobblestones]

Good stuff cobblestones. Now read this....

The bit in bold at the bottom there IS the performance enhancing effect. This, in concert with enhanced oxygen delivery via autologous blood doping or microdose EPO is a very powerful combination.

I wonder if Dr Garnham (in the author list there) has improved his muscle biopsy skills... he had a nickname as "The Butcher" a few years back lol

Krebs cycle, nice find. Also I like your username. Obviously you're interested in biochemistry. The AICAR topic should be right up your alley.

As for the road race forum, it's not funny anymore. I looked into the 'Contador blasts LA' thread and it's incredible to see the amount of hate and viciousness directed at Bertie.