Ag2r

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The TUE applies to prohibited substances may be used as part of a therapeutic treatment. In this case, the request must be made ​​with the application of e AFLD . When it includes all documents requested by the Agency in accordance with Resolution No. 36 (as amended by the proceedings Nos. 43 and 88 for tendinopathy and deliberations Nos. 55 , 88 and 119 for asthmatic diseases) including the financial contribution of 30 euros requested to sports ( Resolution No. 112 ), the AFLD notify the applicant that the application is complete in accordance with the rules laid down by Resolution No. 38 . It should in principle decision within 30 days. The three doctors, independent of the Agency, to examine the file and selected on the list of doctors under the Resolution No. 42 , vote majority. In case of refusal, the athlete receives a sealed envelope full medical advice motivating refusal. The President of the Agency or his representative endorse the view of these three doctors.
[Edit: wrong resolution 42. This one is the real deal. A list of all the people allowed to deliberate TUEs for AFLD: https://www.afld.fr/sites/default/files/webfm/images/pdf/ressources/Textes_internes-Deliberations/ressource70_42.AUT-listedesexperts-22032007.pdf]
 
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thehog said:
Did you ever read the last few posts? :eek:
Yeah after I posted I kept reading. You're wrong, as outlined in my copy and paste directly from the pages of the AFLD website.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Eric BOUVAT is listed as the medical manager here: http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/en/team/staff and appears in the list of article 42 linked above.

From Article 42 linked above:

L’annexe à la présente délibération précise la liste des médecins
susceptibles d’être désignés en vue de participer aux travaux du comité placé auprès de
l’Agence française pour la lutte contre le dopage, prévu par l’article L.232-2 du code du
sport, pour examiner pour avis des demandes d’autorisation d’usage à des fins
thérapeutiques.
which roughly translate to:

The annex to the present decision specifies the list of doctors
may be designated to participate in the committee placed with

the French Agency for the fight against doping, provided for in Article L.232-2 of the Code of
sport, to look for reviews of applications for permission to use for purposes
Therapeutic
.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I am sure when they are selecting the doctor for the panel for a TUE review session, they avoid the CoI potential and choose someone who is not connected with the rider in question.

Plus, it's a majority decision. So even if they did, he would have to convince at least one of the other doctors selected.

I guess there's the potential for back scratching, given there are multiple French teams, all employing doctors.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Yeah after I posted I kept reading. You're wrong, as outlined in my copy and paste directly from the pages of the AFLD website.
No I'm not wrong but keep trying. I actually have no idea what it is you're posting or responding to. Perhaps be a little more succinct.

What is your objection to the stated ethics from Ag2r?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I think my posts speak for themselves. Let me know if there's something specific you don't understand - perhaps quote something that's confusing you so I can clarify?

To precis the flurry of posts I made above, which include facts, links and translations:

The medical manager for AG2R is one of the doctors that sits on a panel for AFLD to approve or reject TUE applications.

This is a potential conflict of interest.

As pointed out by del1962.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
I think my posts speak for themselves. Let me know if there's something specific you don't understand - perhaps quote something that's confusing you so I can clarify?

To precis the flurry of posts I made above, which include facts, links and translations:

The medical manager for AG2R is one of the doctors that sits on a panel for AFLD to approve or reject TUE applications.

This is a potential conflict of interest.

As pointed out by del1962.
Your link is broken, so there's a start.

And yes your posts do speak for themselves. Incorrect in almost every way.

In your "flurry" you failed to note that Ag2R is a ProTour team which races mostly if not entirely in international events with international riders.

Therefore outside of Asthma related conditions the UCI would deliberate on the TUE not Mr. Medical Manager at the AFLD with his French buddies cooking the system.

And I'm sure somewhere in that French document with the broken link is a "withdrawal" clause for Doctors so they would not deliberate on a rider of their own team.

Alas the UCI's stated rules:

Which riders should apply to the UCI for a TUE?

If you are included in the UCI International Registered Testing Pool (RTP), you must apply for a TUE directly from the UCI through ADAMS.

Click here to check whether you are included in the UCI RTP.

If you are included in the UCI RTP and you already have a TUE from your National Anti-Doping Organisation (NADO), from 1 January 2009 you must apply directly to the UCI for a TUE through ADAMS. Your national TUE is not valid if you are in the UCI RTP.
http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI2/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU2ODY&LangId=1

You see. No conflict of interest.

The AG2R ethics charter is strong and in writing. Better than most teams although I haven't looked much beyond Sky, Garmin & Cofidis.

Those of the MPCC would also adopt their ethics charter.
 
I believe the remainder of the ethics speak highly for the French team.

But don't worry I'm sure the French guys are just pulling our legs with this ethics stuff. It wasn't like Festina was a big deal or anything. For it to occur in their own country and be a constant reminder of the scourge of doping probably means little.

The French longitude blood parameters program was 7 years in effect prior to the bio passport.

Riders’ absolute compliance with the daily whereabouts program through the ADAMS system allowing no advance notice anti-doping tests, with the French Cycling Federation anti-doping program and with the implementation of the biological passport of the International Cycling Union.

Prevention within the team: medical and paramedical staff during the training courses, races or any other trip, so that anybody else but the team medical staff can make medical interventions within the team.

Verification by the team doctor of all medical procedures proposed outside the framework of the team for the purposes of a validation before implementation.
At the beginning of the year, a presentation to all the riders of the anti-doping legislation in force and of the additional constraints imposed by the team as part of the fight against doping.

Biological and health check-ups during the year left to the discretion of the team doctor, including during the Grand Tours if necessary.

Inclusion in the team’s internal regulation of specific issues relating to ethics and the fight against doping, for riders and staff.

Eviction or non-renewal of contract of any rider not complying with the internal regulation or with the health checks imposed by the team.

Team membership and involvement with the MPCC (Movement For a Credible Cycling) and compliance with the MPCC rules.
 
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thehog said:
He/She doesn't work for the anti-doping agency. Can you actually read?

Read it it again and understand what it actually states.
The doctor is on the TUE panel for AFLD.

thehog said:
Yes it's a real conflict having the team doctor evaluate the need for a TUE prior to making the request.

I just can't believe they would use a Doctor to look at medical conditions. They should be using a lawyer.

Are you slow or something?
No, he isn't slow or something.

thehog said:
Ok here we go. Lesson 1: sentence construction.

Now please pay attention.

Here we have a paragraph;



1. The team Doctor whom is known as the "medical officer" for AG2R is the "medical evaluator" for the consideration for requests of a TUE.

ie the rider whom is sick/injured etc. sees the team doctor to be evaluated and if medication is required and is a banned substance then the "medical officer" of the team will make that request on behalf of the rider. Meaning a rider or a personal doctor cannot make the request. Only the team doctor.

Got it?

Ok, next part;

2. All TUE requests go to the national anti-doping agency. In this case as it's a French team of French riders so that would be the "French Anti-Doping agency".

Therefore

Meaning the application "for" the anti-doping agency is only made by the teams "medical officer".

End of lesson.
Your points 1 & 2 are completely incorrect as it pertains to the ethics statement on the AG2R website that del1962 was alluding to. As has been proven in my posts, which are direct copy and pastes from AFLD website.

thehog said:
That was for an "emergency TUE" fast track. Not a regular TUE applied for "ahead" of competition with the national anti-doping agency.

It's a slightly different procedure and clear Zorzoli pulls favours whereas UK-AD may not.


thehog said:
Your link is broken, so there's a start.
It's fixed. A simple ] after .pdf was the problem.

thehog said:
And yes your posts do speak for themselves. Incorrect in almost every way.
My posts are direct quotes from the website, so to say they are incorrect in every way is trolling.

thehog said:
Therefore outside of Asthma related conditions the UCI would deliberate on the TUE not Mr. Medical Manager at the AFLD with his French buddies cooking the system.
Ahhh so they don't do TUEs but they do do asthma TUEs? I'm finding this confusing - could you clarify?

thehog said:
And I'm sure somewhere in that French document with the broken link is a "withdrawal" clause for Doctors so they would not deliberate on a rider of their own team.
Which is also what I said. Perhaps you missed that?
 
Dear Wiggo said:
The doctor is on the TUE panel for AFLD.

No, he isn't slow or something.

Your points 1 & 2 are completely incorrect as it pertains to the ethics statement on the AG2R website that del1962 was alluding to. As has been proven in my posts, which are direct copy and pastes from AFLD website.

It's fixed. A simple ] after .pdf was the problem.

My posts are direct quotes from the website, so to say they are incorrect in every way is trolling.

Ahhh so they don't do TUEs but they do do asthma TUEs? I'm finding this confusing - could you clarify?

Which is also what I said. Perhaps you missed that?
Your link is broken, so I have no idea what it says.

Again the ethics statement was interpreted incorrectly by Del. Similar to much of your posts.

The UCI will decide on the granting of the TUE. There won't be a situation of the AG2R medical manager or whomever from Ag2r on granting a TUE.

It's fairly straight forward. There simply is no conflict of interest.

Del was upset because he claimed the Ag2r Doctor was "employed" by the French Anti-doping committee. There's no employment whatsoever.

No read it again, the statement says that they work for the French Anti-doping agency, it seems quite clear, so unless something has been lost in translation you are barking up the wrong tree Hoggie
So not only have you managed to misrepresent what I wrote you've even not understood what Del was claiming!

Struth!
 
Potential conflict of interest with this many medical experts to choose from? Even though they won't deliberates on riders from Ag2r. As the UCI handles all TUE requests for international riders.

Seriously? This keeps you up at night?

The UCI has one guy giving out express TUEs and you and Del are worried about the AFLDs choice of 987 different medical experts?

Bonkers. Bloody bonkers.

Monsieur AMORETTI Richard,
• Madame ANTONINI Marie Thérèse,
• Monsieur BENEZIS Christian,
• Monsieur BOMPARD Phililppe,
• Madame BORSON CHAZOT Françoise,
• Monsieur BOUVARD Marc,
• Monsieur BOUVAT Eric,
• Monsieur BRION Richard,
• Monsieur CANTIN Thierry,
• Monsieur CABROL Michel,
• Monsieur CAREL Jean Claude,
• Monsieur CAVELIER Vincent,
• Monsieur CHAORY Karl,
• Monsieur COUDREUSE Jean Marie,
• Monsieur DAUBINET Gilles,
• Monsieur DE LECLUSE Jacques,
• Monsieur DE THOMASSON Thomas,
• Monsieur DEMARAIS Yves,
• Monsieur DEPIESSE Frédéric,
• Monsieur DOUARD Hervé,
• Monsieur DOUTRELEAU Stéphane,
• Monsieur DUMONTIER Christian,
• Monsieur ESTOUR Bruno,
• Monsieur FREY Alain,
• Madame FRIEMEL Françoise,
• Monsieur GAUTHIER Jean,
• Monsieur GUILLAUME Gérard,
• Monsieur GUILLOT Jean Paul,
• Monsieur GUY Jonathan,
• Monsieur HAISSAT Gérard,
• Monsieur HERVOUET DES FORGES Yves,
• Monsieur JOUSSELLIN Eric,
• Monsieur KREBS Bernard,
• Monsieur KUHN Jean Marc,
• Monsieur LACOTTE Jérome,
• Monsieur LAFAY Vincent,
• Madame LECLERCQ Caroline,
• Monsieur LIENARD Jacques,
• Monsieur MELLONI Boris,
• Monsieur MOMBET Jacques,
• Monsieur MONROCHE André,
• Monsieur NATHAN Patrick,
• Monsieur NOEL Eric,
• Monsieur PASSARD François,
• Madame PONSSIN Valérie,
• Monsieur POUPON Jean,
• Monsieur PUGEAT Michel,
• Monsieur RENAULT Alain,
Monsieur ROATTINO Jean Pierre,
• Monsieur ROUSSEAU Didier,
• Monsieur ROZENBLAT Marc,
• Monsieur RUA Roger,
• Monsieur SALZE Patrick,
• Monsieur SESBOUE Bruno,
• Monsieur SIMON Alain,
• Monsieur UZAN Laurent,
• Monsieur VIGOUROUX Philipp
 
Sep 29, 2012
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thehog said:
Your link is broken, so I have no idea what it says.

Again the ethics statement was interpreted incorrectly by Del. Similar to much of your posts.
The link was fixed ages ago.

del said the doctor was on a TUE panel for AFLD. You went to great lengths to disagree with this, attempting to "school" him in English.

You were wrong.

I'll admit that after reviewing the documentation further, AG2R riders won't be submitting TUE applications to AFLD - not for asthma, not for anything.

So no, there's no conflict of interest having the doctor on the AFLD panel for TUE applications.

Would you agree, given the AFLD website says as much, that the medical manager for AG2R is on the AFLD TUE approval panel's list of doctors?
 
Dear Wiggo said:
The link was fixed ages ago.

del said the doctor was on a TUE panel for AFLD. You went to great lengths to disagree with this, attempting to "school" him in English.

You were wrong.

I'll admit that after reviewing the documentation further, AG2R riders won't be submitting TUE applications to AFLD - not for asthma, not for anything.

So no, there's no conflict of interest having the doctor on the AFLD panel for TUE applications.

Would you agree, given the AFLD website says as much, that the medical manager for AG2R is on the AFLD TUE approval panel's list of doctors?
No I wasn't wrong. Again the "Doctor" as stated in the ethics statement is not on the panel.

The Medial Manager is not the person assessing the athlete. This is clearly defined not only in the statements but by the separation of duties listed on the staff section of the Ag2r website.

(http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/en/team/staff)

And again "for". They do not work nor are they are employed by the AFLD. They prepare the TUE "for" the AFLD (if not international standard) or the UCI.

The doctor, medical officer of the team AG2R LA MONDIALE, is also invested as a medical evaluator to consider requests of Therapeutic Use Exemptions for the French Anti-doping Agency as well as a member of its medical commission.
Seriously, you're still casting a rod on this one?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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thehog said:
No I wasn't wrong. Again the "Doctor" as stated in the ethics statement is not on the panel.

The Medial Manager is not the person assessing the athlete. This is clearly defined not only in the statements but by the separation of duties listed on the staff section of the Ag2r website.

(http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/en/team/staff)

And again "for". They do not work nor are they are employed by the AFLD. They prepare the TUE "for" the AFLD (if not international standard) or the UCI.



Seriously, you're still casting a rod on this one?
The list you posted, copied from the Resolution 42 link I posted, clearly lists the Medical Manager as a doctor who is on the list of doctors that can be called upon to deliberate on TUE applications for AFLD. That is what the ethics statement says.

That is an irrefutable fact.

I'm not going to bicker with you, it's inherently dangerous to my non-banned state.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
The list you posted, copied from the Resolution 42 link I posted, clearly lists the Medical Manager as a doctor who is on the list of doctors that can be called upon to deliberate on TUE applications for AFLD. That is what the ethics statement says.

That is an irrefutable fact.

I'm not going to bicker with you, it's inherently dangerous to my non-banned state.
Of course he's a Doctor. He wouldn't be the Medical Manager if he wasn't a Doctor. But I gather you understand the concept of "separation of duties"? Roles and responsibilities are a very important part of ethics and codes or practice.

The Doctors on the staff page are separated from medical manager.

But you know what? It's all academic seeing the UCI will deliberate. Neither of us really know what the poorly translated ag2r site might imply. But considering there's 47 Doctors to choose from I don't think it's a cause for concern. Additionally the WADA code states that the doctors whom deliberate TUEs must have satisfactory experience in the sport and with medial conditions of athletes. So there's no avoiding having doctors whom are directly involved in the sport and teams.

Truth be told you were trying to rile me up saying I was wrong and "Good post Del", you were looking for a reaction. Try being less confrontational next time you want to tease out the information on both sides.

But, yes, agreed we can leave it here before one or both of us gets banned.
 
Ok back to regular transmission.

Here's some serious marginal gains from Ag2r:

AG2R using cryotherapy for Tour de France

Whole body immersion in extreme cold helps recovery…

The French team AG2R-La Mondiale will use cryotherapy to help enhance recovery during the Tour de France, the squad announced today.

Riders will endure three minutes in a special whole body suit, pioneered by Tec4H, which is filled with liquid nitrogen at -150 degrees Celsius.

Cold is said to aid recovery and reduce inflammation, and riders have traditionally taken ice baths to help recuperate from intense efforts. However, the short blast of extreme cold in the new suits, which cover the entire body from neck to ankle, has other benefits, explained the team’s medical director Eric Bouvat.

“Cryotherapy is a technique which has been used in Eastern countries for several decades to fight against inflammation in people suffering from rheumatism,” Bouvat said.

“They saw the effectiveness and developed it for use in athletes with inflamed muscle and tendons after exercise.

“This technique has been developed for use by our team this year in France by the company Tec4H. We use it on our athletes for two reasons: first to facilitate recovery and fight against pain after exercise. Secondly, when used over the long term, cold can help boost the immune system.

“We use cryotherapy on the team after the stages, but we also use it in the morning because the cold stimulates the endocrine system and the production of hormones.”
 
Jul 21, 2012
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thehog said:
Ok back to regular transmission.

Here's some serious marginal gains from Ag2r:
Ah, marginal gains improved and perfected. Sky would only put ice in their drinks, but this is much better.

This explains why Porte lost 10 minutes on every climb.
 
A souped up ice bath ?


Personally I have never found those to be beneficial, but then again I don't have the training/racing load these guys do.

I have heard of cryotherapy being used by long distance runners as well.
 
Catwhoorg said:
A souped up ice bath ?


Personally I have never found those to be beneficial, but then again I don't have the training/racing load these guys do.

I have heard of cryotherapy being used by long distance runners as well.
It's impressive. A mobile ice bath. And a lot more healthy than a cort shot in the knees. I like what Ag2r is doing. This is what's known as transparency.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Catwhoorg said:
A souped up ice bath ?


Personally I have never found those to be beneficial, but then again I don't have the training/racing load these guys do.

I have heard of cryotherapy being used by long distance runners as well.
also in football and other sports. it's growing in popularity.
not likely to be used in isolation, imo.
more likely a smokescreen for a whole set of illegal recovery methods.
http://www.uksportsproducts.com/cryotechno.shtml

Benefits of Whole Body Cryotherapy for Sport

Following trauma injury / Surgery

Reduction of pain
Reduction of post traumatic treatmen
Inhibition of inflammation

Post-Training / Competition

Increase in muscle strength
Increase in performance
Reduction in the regeneration phase
Improvement of joint function
Decrease in muscle tension over longer application
Golf: US Ryder Cup Team
Rugby: Ireland Rugby Team
Rugby: Wales Rugby Team
Football: Bolton Wanderers
F1: Mark Webber
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Although potentially a bad idea when training, where inflammation leads to adaptations that are useful physiologically.
 

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