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AICAR, GW1516 Wada can test, can the French ?

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Jun 27, 2013
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armchairclimber said:
When they do perfect a workable test (and safe endogenous levels have been set), it should still be possible to retrospectively test old samples. If SKY or anyone else have been using, they will, eventually, be found out.
Which reminds me of a question I've thought about for ages, but not been knowledgeable/smart enough to answer - if teams/riders are aware that retroactive testing may occur and snare them in future, what's their thought process:
a) we may get caught in the future, but let's just go for the short-term gain
b) nah, they probably won't develop a test
c) nah, they might catch us but probably won't prosecute us
d) we're not REALLY cheating by doing this, so how can we be caught

I guess I'm mistakenly assuming there is a thought process.
 
faraday said:
Which reminds me of a question I've thought about for ages, but not been knowledgeable/smart enough to answer - if teams/riders are aware that retroactive testing may occur and snare them in future, what's their thought process:
a) we may get caught in the future, but let's just go for the short-term gain
b) nah, they probably won't develop a test
c) nah, they might catch us but probably won't prosecute us
d) we're not REALLY cheating by doing this, so how can we be caught

I guess I'm mistakenly assuming there is a thought process.
e)Well be able to bribe our way out of it.
f) they wont bring us down because we are worth too much for the sport.
 
May 26, 2010
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The Hitch said:
e)Well be able to bribe our way out of it.
f) they wont bring us down because we are worth too much for the sport.
g) we'll be long gone and the money will have pocketed.
 
May 13, 2009
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I don't think retroactive testing is effective. They will have cashed in on the victory, and I'm not talking about the prize money. The big money is in the sponsor and endorsement deals which pay out within a year or two of a big win such as the TdF. If retroactive testing happens much later than that it will have absolutely no impact on the decision to dope. My feeling is that if you're willing to dope, you won't be scared away by a test which may be 2 years in the future.
 
Cobblestones said:
I don't think retroactive testing is effective. They will have cashed in on the victory, and I'm not talking about the prize money. The big money is in the sponsor and endorsement deals which pay out within a year or two of a big win such as the TdF. If retroactive testing happens much later than that it will have absolutely no impact on the decision to dope. My feeling is that if you're willing to dope, you won't be scared away by a test which may be 2 years in the future.
Don't agree. The concept of retroactive testing is simply part of a toolbox designed to shift the power away from the dopers in the peloton. Currently the the balance of power is firmly in the hands of the dirty. Gotta get the culture moving in the right direction.

It will be a long and difficult process.
 
Maybe not for riders into their 30s, but it would probably increase the average age of dopers. At a younger age you'd persevere clean for longer. If you're a reasonable 24 year old talent you'd be horrified by the prospect of your pro career being over in four years. If you're 29 and have never had the big breakthrough then you'd probably throw caution to the wind and give it a big push.
 
Cobblestones said:
I don't think retroactive testing is effective. They will have cashed in on the victory, and I'm not talking about the prize money. The big money is in the sponsor and endorsement deals which pay out within a year or two of a big win such as the TdF. If retroactive testing happens much later than that it will have absolutely no impact on the decision to dope. My feeling is that if you're willing to dope, you won't be scared away by a test which may be 2 years in the future.
That is somewhat true, but you're forgetting about the possible deterrent effect.

Even for guys who earned enough money during their active career to comfortably retire, what are you gonna do for the next 50 years afterwards? Anything that involves contact with the public, even if it's just opening a bike shop, let alone being colour commentator or having a newspaper column or doing Gran Fondos, you probably want to keep your reputation intact.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
Don't agree. The concept of retroactive testing is simply part of a toolbox designed to shift the power away from the dopers in the peloton. Currently the the balance of power is firmly in the hands of the dirty. Gotta get the culture moving in the right direction.

It will be a long and difficult process.
I agree, the retroactive testing is integral to the fight against doping as it means that the dopers who think they are a few steps ahead have to think that in 5, 10 or 15 years they will be caught and punished.

But the retroactive doping should also be used to implicate the enablers and that is what is missing from anti doping.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Netserk said:
When was the last time several riders tested positive due to retroactive tests? (And no; hand picking a couple of sacrificial lambs don't count)
Cyclists specifically? Ashenden caught Armstrong's 2009/10 samples as red-hot positive because the UCI shared Armstrong's athlete code. This should shock no one, the UCI blamed a configuration error in the sample management software then did nothing else.

In athletics, there have been a huge number of retroactive positives out of Russia and Belarus. Why just those two countries? I have no clue.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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There will be special anti-doping checks during the Tour for AICAR and phthalates, the "plasticizer" molecules linked to blood doping. The Köln lab has developed the AICAR test and it has quietly been in place already
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Race Radio said:
There will be special anti-doping checks during the Tour for AICAR and phthalates, the "plasticizer" molecules linked to blood doping. The Köln lab has developed the AICAR test and it has quietly been in place already
tennis? wimbledon?
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Race Radio said:
There will be special anti-doping checks during the Tour for AICAR and phthalates, the "plasticizer" molecules linked to blood doping. The Köln lab has developed the AICAR test and it has quietly been in place already
Quietly? Can't be that stealthy if you are aware of it.

Köln lab again. Are these guys World leading or what?
 
May 13, 2009
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Race Radio said:
There will be special anti-doping checks during the Tour for AICAR and phthalates, the "plasticizer" molecules linked to blood doping. The Köln lab has developed the AICAR test and it has quietly been in place already
The guy in the interview said that yes, they can test for AICAR, but as with any such molecules which are also produced naturally, the problem is to show that there's some excess of the stuff. Meaning it might require longitudinal testing, and defining something similar to the 'off-score' or '50% rule' or maybe isotopic analysis, who knows. I'm skeptical that there will be AAFs due to AICAR in this tour. Maybe some years down the road we'll have the equivalent of the '99 EPO samples with all the drama in repeat.
 
Sep 26, 2009
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Alcar Article

Published during the Tour.

It would be the future of EPO: AICAR, suspected of being used by some elite athletes could block some line charts in the early twenty-first century

http://www.republicain-lorrain.fr/sports/2013/07/31/attention-a-l-aicar

[size=+0]A course of one month, associated with the GW15 (capsule to relieve fatigue) for efficiency, cost nearly € 500,000 while earning an Olympic or World victory.[/size]
 
Mar 10, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
You are missing the point on testing. Since the UCI totally controls testing the French have nothing to do with it.

My understanding of the arrangement for the 2013 TdF is AFLD provides the on-the-ground services of collecting and shipping samples. That's all. Maybe I'm wrong though?

The UCI still chooses who to test, what to test for, and actually sending samples to experts to give advice about opening a case. As of 2012, the samples are totally anonymous to the lab now so no more Contador leaks.

We know for sure they have positive samples where nothing is done.
who's positive samples? You said we know! Or are you still on Lance?
Often the same people do the collection for the UCI tests and the domestic tests. They are specialist volunteers. The UCI does not do all the testing of pro races. Utah for example was tested by USADA and Colorado Will be tested by the UCI. The anti doping inspector and labs might be the same. The UCI does not own a lab so tests go to the same labs that the domestic federation uses. What they test for? that can be different according to the dollars they have to spend. In both cases the organizer pays for a lot of this.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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was just rereading some stuff on AICAR.
I still think this is what we're looking at.
It has no impact on one's blood profile, but does dramatically increase durability and causes weight loss.
I don't think there is any reliable test for it yet, and even if there was, it's been on the market so long now, docs have had plenty of time to come up with masking methods.

a pity we're not hearing from Ashenden these days.
 
May 26, 2010
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Master50 said:
who's positive samples? You said we know! Or are you still on Lance?
Often the same people do the collection for the UCI tests and the domestic tests. They are specialist volunteers. The UCI does not do all the testing of pro races. Utah for example was tested by USADA and Colorado Will be tested by the UCI. The anti doping inspector and labs might be the same. The UCI does not own a lab so tests go to the same labs that the domestic federation uses. What they test for? that can be different according to the dollars they have to spend. In both cases the organizer pays for a lot of this.
Do you think Armstrong was a one off? That is like doping only once, unbelievable. I guess UCI had deals with all top teams. We know about Leinders link to Zorzoli, Heins with Armstrong, Pat probably had a deal with Sky.....

Remember in 2010 UCI (McQuaid) tried to sit on Contador's positive.

The UCI would have a very good and close relationship with the lab, didn't they arrange for Bruyneel and Armstrong to meet Lab director to get the inside line on testing.
 
May 26, 2010
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sniper said:
was just rereading some stuff on AICAR.
I still think this is what we're looking at.
It has no impact on one's blood profile, but does dramatically increase durability and causes weight loss.
I don't think there is any reliable test for it yet, and even if there was, it's been on the market so long now, docs have had plenty of time to come up with masking methods.

a pity we're not hearing from Ashenden these days.
Well we can hope that riders urine from the 2011, 2012, 2013 TdFs were kept to retest.
 
The Cologne Centre for Preventive Doping Research has developed a successful test for the banned substance AICAR, deutschefunk.de reports, and will be analysing samples from this year’s Tour de France. The substance, developed to help combat obesity, is sometimes known as “exercise in a bottle,” due to its giving laboratory mice a 44% performance enhancement without them making any apparent extra effort.

The Cologne lab was the one responsible for detecting the extremely small amount of Clenbuterol in Alberto Contador’s urine after the 2010 Tour.
Get the Cologne lab to test the Dawg 24 x 7 :rolleyes:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/16008/Cologne-lab-develops-successful-test-for-banned-substance-AICAR.aspx#ixzz2nfutCnUF[
 
Jul 6, 2010
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I'd like to know why all the GW1516 positives from last season didn't garner a lot more attention.

There were, what? At least six guys popped? Maybe eight, I can't remember. But, since they were Eastern Bloc, they don't count.

Think on that. GW is known to pretty much kill you.

Kill you.

And there were more than half a dozen riders KNOWN to be on it. And, since we can assume that testing does not equal usage, probably AT LEAST ten times more riders on it.

At least.

YAY! Cleanest peloton ever!
 
Sep 23, 2011
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It was clever to announce testing of the TDF samples, just before the new T&R commission is announced. There could be people queuing at the door.
 

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