AICAR, GW1516 Wada can test, can the French ?

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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
staubsauger said:
AICAR was found in the rubbish bins of Team Astana if I remember correctly. 2009, the year Contador beat Cancellara in a flat TT. Also Armstrong looked notably skinnier in 2009 & 2010 than he did during 1998-2005!
That's big, good memory. I didn't know that. So both Astana and Xacobeo-Galicia were using the AICAR in 2009...
I'd be interested if there is any published source for this 2009/AICAR/Astana/dustbin - claim, because I've never seen any and I can't recall any journalists with unfavorable opinion about Armstrong (Walsh, Kimmage, Macur) mentioning this damning item anywhere.

My gut feeling is that original source is that someone (unintentionally) combined random and unrelated media items, because it is true that around/after the 2009 Tour there were the following allegations circulating in the media and published occasionally even in the same article:
1) Complains that Astana got a "favorable treatment" from the testers, early notifications etc.
2) Anti-doping specialists considering it possible that AICAR could be one a brand new product used by cyclists at the Tour.
3) There were unspecified banned products found from dustbins during the Tour.
 
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Aragon said:
My gut feeling is that original source is that someone (unintentionally) combined random and unrelated media items, because it is true that around/after the 2009 Tour there were the following allegations circulating in the media and published occasionally even in the same article:
1) Complains that Astana got a "favorable treatment" from the testers, early notifications etc.
2) Anti-doping specialists considering it possible that AICAR could be one a brand new product used by cyclists at the Tour.
3) There were unspecified banned products found from dustbins during the Tour.
One article from Le Monde, July 2009, right after the 2009 Tour contains statements (2) and (3) by Pierre Bordry
https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2009/07/27/une-nouvelle-generation-d-epo-suspectee_1223033_3242.html
"deux nouveaux produits ont été utilisés pendant le Tour, deux médicaments qui ne sont pas encore sur le marché...'une de ces deux substances serait l'hematide, une EPO de troisième génération ...Le second médicament serait l'Aicar, un produit qui agit sur les tissus musculaires et permet de brûler les graisses
Enfin, l'AFLD a fait des découvertes dans les poubelles de certaines équipes. "Nous avons trouvé des médicaments lourds, comme une substance pour produire de l'insuline qui est normalement utilisée par des diabétiques", indique Pierre Bordry.
But Bordry doesn't say in which "certain teams' rubbish bins" these "serious drugs" were found, and gives only an example of some kind of insulin-related drug. AICAR is not an insulin secretagogue, but it is similar in effect to insulin in that it improves glucose transport into cells.

Bordry may have talking about AICAR, and just misunderstood or miscommunicated its method of action in diabetes. But we don't know that, it could have been some other kind of drug entirely, which does increase insulin secretion. So indeed, Aragon, that is an interesting question, to find the original sources of the AICAR discovery by the AFLD. In the early 2000's it was studied more as a diabetes treatment, and it was kind of cutting-edge information that the AICAR could be useful for exercise. And thus the big question is, how did AICAR, while not approved for use in humans, get diverted from that point into sports?

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080731/full/news.2008.999.html
"We realized that as soon as the paper comes out there’s a good chance that athletes will start experimenting”. Frédéric Donzé, a spokesman at WADA’s headquarters in Montreal, Canada, says the agency does not reveal when it rolls out new tests. But, he adds, “Thanks to the much appreciated cooperation of Ron Evans and his team, WADA received key information in advance in order to develop and implement ways to detect these molecules.”
But I wonder if they give themselves too much credit for popularizing AICAR, and the idea that use in doping began as a result of their paper. Someone in academia with deep knowledge of the subject probably had already done that technology transfer by 2007 or earlier. It can't be that their lab was the only one with the information, although they may have been the first to prove it.
 
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Lots of sources in 2013 say French police found AICAR packaging in the Astana team hotel

https://www.dw.com/de/neues-dopingmittel-aicar-macht-mager/a-16945387
https://www.handelsblatt.com/sport/sonstige-sportarten/tour-de-france-aicar-das-neue-epo/8420464-2.html
http://www.velonation.com/news/id/16008/cologne-lab-develops-successful-test-for-banned-substance-aicar.aspx
https://www.b.dk/cykling/nyt-doping-gennembrud-kan-faelde-dette-aars-tour-ryttere

But these articles don't trace back to any particular original source, they don't quote other sources.
And the diabetes drug mentioned by Bourdry turns out to be sitagliptin, which really does (indirectly) increase insulin
https://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b4201
 
Aug 29, 2016
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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Lots of sources in 2013 say French police found AICAR packaging in the Astana team hotel

https://www.dw.com/de/neues-dopingmittel-aicar-macht-mager/a-16945387
https://www.handelsblatt.com/sport/sonstige-sportarten/tour-de-france-aicar-das-neue-epo/8420464-2.html
http://www.velonation.com/news/id/16008/cologne-lab-develops-successful-test-for-banned-substance-aicar.aspx
https://www.b.dk/cykling/nyt-doping-gennembrud-kan-faelde-dette-aars-tour-ryttere

But these articles don't trace back to any particular original source, they don't quote other sources.
And the diabetes drug mentioned by Bourdry turns out to be sitagliptin, which really does (indirectly) increase insulin
https://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b4201
All kudos to you for tracking a source and applying critical thinking. It perhaps should be clarified that I got interested in the issue because I've seen this Astana/Hotel-stuff mentioned now-and-then and was just curious about whether there exists a source, because I couldn't locate one.

Those are sources and nodoby is dishonest if reporting that there is a source where it is stated that the AICAR/hotel/Astana - allegation has been made.

You are not vouching for veracity of the material and one should be very critical about the allegation because the only sources are published four years after the fact and the similarity in content of the articles does indicate that they are based on just one article and are more-or-less translations with a few details added/omitted. Because the sources claim that AICAR "first hit the headlines in cycling in 2009, when French authorities found packaging in the Astana team hotel during the Tour de France" and at not yet there is a 2009 source making this claim, the author of the 2013 article most likely got confused about the different items in a manner described in my earlier post.
 
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Aragon said:
Because the sources claim that AICAR "first hit the headlines in cycling in 2009, when French authorities found packaging in the Astana team hotel during the Tour de France" and at not yet there is a 2009 source making this claim, the author of the 2013 article most likely got confused about the different items in a manner described in my earlier post.
Maybe yes? It's proven that blood-transfusion equipment and two antihypertensive drugs used to control blood-pressure during blood transfusions were found in the rubbish bins of Astana. And the sitagliptin.
But not proven by these articles whether AICAR was among the drugs discovered to have been used by Astana at 2009 TDF. There could have been a mistake in 2013 by some journalists, and then other publications simply echo that statement without checking the (French language) original sources.
 
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macbindle said:
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/6739/anti-doping-bodies-tipped-off-about-possible-use-of-doping-agent-at-tour-de-france
Yes, I saw the news on italian websites and in La Gazzetta.
https://www.tuttobiciweb.it/article/2019/07/15/1563181537/doping-aicar-telegraaf-microdosi
The english article doesn't mention the fact that you could detect it my monitoring HDL levels in the blood, I didn't know that.
If that's true than we have another parameter that should be added to the bio passport.
 
The questions Armstrong asked are very relevant

Why are so many top riders going back to the car for their own bidons ?
Allaphilpe and G Bennett are two notables

The rumour mill saying the bidons are personal drinks with ketones and could be more !!!
 
Isn't it a carcinogen although I suppose some people won't be put off by that and I was under the impression that they had a test for this for quite some years, is that not the case ?
 
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bigcog said:
Isn't it a carcinogen although I suppose some people won't be put off by that and I was under the impression that they had a test for this for quite some years, is that not the case ?

Tests not reliable as body can make
Some scientists saying it Improves performance up to 15%
Rumour in the peloton is that it is back and some teams and riders are on it
I mean look at some riders who havent ever shown the level they are on now and are over the age of 30 ??

Even the ketone drinks do not provide a level playing field ...improving recovery and helping shed weight
Jumbo Visma are on ketones
I expect Ineos are
 
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bigcog said:
Isn't it a carcinogen although I suppose some people won't be put off by that and I was under the impression that they had a test for this for quite some years, is that not the case ?
The GW1516 is the carcinogenic one - the AICAR is, if anything, anti-neoplastic and has been used in cancer research to inhibit tumor growth

GW1516 is super-risky because it induces lots of cancers in laboratory animals in high doses, and there is no reason to believe it would be safe for human use

Both the AICAR and the GW1516 were put on the banned list before there were even tests for them -
GW1516 detection in blood was perfected first , there was an AICAR test approved in 2015, and the methods for AICAR testing, are getting better - it's a hard one because it occurs naturally in the human body so there has to be detection of exogenous AICAR.

Nobody has ever been sanctioned for AICAR as a result of testing - shows that the methods / implementation are still weak. Found this one case which was non-analytical :
https://www.usada.org/abdelmounaim-harroufi-receives-doping-sanction/
A track runner got banned in 2017 because people found AICAR in his possession and he admitted that he was taking it
 
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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
bigcog said:
Isn't it a carcinogen although I suppose some people won't be put off by that and I was under the impression that they had a test for this for quite some years, is that not the case ?
The GW1516 is the carcinogenic one - the AICAR is, if anything, anti-neoplastic and has been used in cancer research to inhibit tumor growth

GW1516 is super-risky because it induces lots of cancers in laboratory animals in high doses, and there is no reason to believe it would be safe for human use

Both the AICAR and the GW1516 were put on the banned list before there were even tests for them -
GW1516 detection in blood was perfected first , there was an AICAR test approved in 2015, and the methods for AICAR testing, are getting better - it's a hard one because it occurs naturally in the human body so there has to be detection of exogenous AICAR.

Nobody has ever been sanctioned for AICAR as a result of testing - shows that the methods / implementation are still weak. Found this one case which was non-analytical :
https://www.usada.org/abdelmounaim-harroufi-receives-doping-sanction/
A track runner got banned in 2017 because people found AICAR in his possession and he admitted that he was taking it
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the GW1516 dose for the mice really high and over a long period of time (6 months)?
The stuff seems to be pretty popular as a fat burner in the lifting and bodybuilding community.
 
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HelloDolly said:
The rumour mill saying the bidons are personal drinks with ketones and could be more !!!
Why would that be a reason to go back for your own bottle anyway? Can't a domestique deliver a specific bottle to specific rider?
 
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Mayomaniac said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the GW1516 dose for the mice really high and over a long period of time (6 months)? The stuff seems to be pretty popular as a fat burner in the lifting and bodybuilding community.
That's right, most of the laboratory testing for carcinogens starts with high doses to see whether it does anything - GW1516 gave lab animals cancers, and killed some of them, in high doses for prolonged periods.
I don't know about bodybuilding 'cycles' because I only do the two-wheeled type of cycle
A bodybuilding expert says he recommends using GW1516 for 3 months :
https://www.lftw.org/cardarine-gw-501516-review/
So there are people out there taking GW1516 for at least 3 months, and some minority probably keep taking it longer, because they figure "more is better, this stuff works, so why stop..."
Duration, many human users are taking GW1516 long enough to give themselves cancer, dosage is the unknown, calculated risk, "Naaaah, nothing will happen, let's get ripped"
What can I say, the results in animals were appalling, and so GW1516 is never going to be tested in humans - other than through self-experimentation by human guinea-pigs, who accept / dismiss a known danger.
Cigarette smoking is carcinogenic, but people still do it because they like it. Different people have different priorities and goals in life
 

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